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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 151097 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #390 on: December 07, 2021, 12:31:16 PM »
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  • Quote
    Wow! Saying that there is "consistent agreement" means that there is disagreement.
    That's obvious.  Consistent means "generally", "mostly", "typically".  It does not mean fully, completely, or all. 

    If something is not fully, completely, or always agreed with, then it's not a fact.  ESPECIALLY in the realm of science.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #391 on: December 07, 2021, 12:50:56 PM »
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  • That's obvious.  Consistent means "generally", "mostly", "typically".  It does not mean fully, completely, or all. 

    This is what the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says:  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consistent
    Essential Meaning of consistent

    1always acting or behaving in the same way  He is a consistent supporter of the museum.We need to be more consistent in handling this problem.Data from recent experiments show consistent results. [=results that do not change]

    2of the same quality especially good each time  His pitching has always been very consistent. [=reliable]Customers expect that the quality of service they receive will be consistent.

    3continuing to happen or develop in the same way  The pain has been consistent.Your grades have shown consistent improvement this school year.You need to exercise on a more consistent [=regular] basis.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #392 on: December 07, 2021, 01:02:20 PM »
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  • Let's try another way:  Are there any sources, besides you, who say that St Bede was in TOTAL agreement with Middle Ages sphere thinking?  You said yourself St Bede's writings are in latin, so how do you know they exactly agree?  I would like more opinions.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #393 on: December 07, 2021, 01:06:51 PM »
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  • You said yourself St Bede's writings are in latin, so how do you know they exactly agree?
    I'm a Latin teacher.  (While my students are over ten, it is an all-girl school, so perhaps it will not be too harmful.)

     I would like more opinions.

    Here is a blog article:

    Quote
    Medieval manuscripts blog

    24 May 2018
    ‘The Earth is, in fact, round’
    It’s a major peeve of many medieval historians: the popular belief that people who lived before Christopher Columbus thought that the world was flat. It is actually rare to find groups in the classical, Late Antique and medieval eras who believed in the flat Earth. On the contrary, numerous ancient thinkers, navigators and artists observed that the Earth was round.
    A detail from a medieval manuscript, showing a diagram of the Earth in a circle, with personifications of the four cardinal points. title=A detail from a medieval manuscript, showing a diagram of the Earth in a circle, with personifications of the four cardinal points.
    Miniature of the Earth in a circle, with personifications of the four cardinal points, made in England in the 3rd quarter of the 13th century: Egerton MS 843, f. 23r 

    The first recorded, unambiguous European references to a spherical Earth are found in the work of ancient Greek philosophers, such as Plato and Aristotle. By the time the Roman writer Pliny the Elder was writing the first part of his Natural History around AD 77, the fact that the Earth is a sphere was treated as common knowledge: ‘We all agree on the earth’s shape. For surely we always speak of the round ball of the Earth’ (Pliny, Natural History, II.64).
    The opening page of a 15th-century manuscript of Pliny's Natural History, showing a portrait of Pliny writing in his study and a landscape with animals, rivers, the sea, sun and moon. title=The opening page of a 15th-century manuscript of Pliny's Natural History, showing a portrait of Pliny writing in his study and a landscape with animals, rivers, the sea, sun and moon.
    Opening page of a much later copy of Pliny’s Historia naturalis, made in Rome in 1457 or 1458: Harley MS 2677, f. 1r

    These views continued into the medieval period, since even the changing hours of daylight throughout the year made it evident that the Earth was round. Around 723 or 725, the monk Bede explained to his students:
    ‘The reason why the same days are of unequal length is the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called ‘‘the orb of the world’’ on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, a sphere set in the middle of the whole universe. It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’ (Bede, The Reckoning of Time, translated by Faith Wallis (Liverpool University Press, 1999), p. 91).
    A detail from an early medieval manuscript, showing the text of Bede's De Temporum Ratione. title=A detail from an early medieval manuscript, showing the text of Bede's De Temporum Ratione.
    Explanation of the Earth as a sphere, from a copy of Bede, De Temporum Ratione, made in England or Normandy, late 11th or early 12th century: Royal MS 13 A XI, f. 62r  

    This belief was also reflected in many medieval maps. Round diagrams of the Earth were included in the works of Isidore of Seville. Meanwhile, a map that was often circulated with the work of the 5th-century writer Macrobius showed the climate zones of Earth divided into northern and southern hemispheres.
    A detail from a manuscript of Macrobius' Commentary on the Dream of Scipio, showing a diagram of the habitable zones of the Earth. title=A detail from a manuscript of Macrobius' Commentary on the Dream of Scipio, showing a diagram of the habitable zones of the Earth.
    Diagram of the habitable zones of the Earth, from Macrobius, Commentarii in Ciceronis Somnium Scipionis, France or England: Add MS 11943, f. 38v 

    The idea that the Earth was round was not limited to tracts on science and natural history. Much medieval art also depicted the Earth as a sphere. For this reason, depictions of God the Creator often show him holding a compass, a tool used to draw round objects.
    A page from the Tiberius Psalter, showing an illustration of God creating the Earth, with a compass and scales. title=A page from the Tiberius Psalter, showing an illustration of God creating the Earth, with a compass and scales.
    Depiction of God creating the Earth with a compass and scales, from the Tiberius Psalter, Winchester, mid-11th century: Cotton MS Tiberius C VI, f. 7v

      A page from a highly illuminated Bible historiale, showing an illustration of God the Creator holding a compass. title=A page from a highly illuminated Bible historiale, showing an illustration of God the Creator holding a compass.
    Depiction of God the Creator holding a compass, from a Bible historiale made in Paris and Clairefontaine, 1411: Royal MS 19 D III, f. 3r

    Many writers also assumed the Earth was a sphere. Dante’s Divine Comedy even discussed how the shape of the world created different time zones, and how different stars were visible in the southern and northern hemispheres.
    Of course, even though earlier thinkers knew the world was round, they did not fully understand how it worked. Without a theory of gravity, Pliny struggled to understand how people who lived in the southern hemisphere did not fall off the world, while Bede denied that anyone lived in the southern hemisphere at all. (Bede was wrong, as you can see in the British Library’s summer 2018 exhibition, James Cook: The Voyages.) 
    A detail from a medieval manuscript, showing a diagram that uses human figures to demonstrate the round shape of the Earth. title=A detail from a medieval manuscript, showing a diagram that uses human figures to demonstrate the round shape of the Earth.
    Diagrams using human figures to show the round shape of Earth, from a copy of Gossuin de Metz’s ‘L’Image du Monde’ made in Bruges, 1464: Royal MS 19 A IX, f. 42r 

    Nevertheless, there is one thing on which most human thinkers, for most of history, have agreed — as Bede put it, 'the Earth is, in fact, a sphere'.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #394 on: December 07, 2021, 01:06:58 PM »
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  • Actually, looking back, he was kinda practicing the Scholastic method.  We used "conservative" science books which talked about creationism instead of evolution, but he gave us both sides.  He taught us about evolution and where it didn't make sense.  He taught us Church history and Scripture on creation.  He MADE US THINK.  He challenged us.  He did the same thing with geocentrism vs heliocentrism. 


    Most people don't give kids enough credit.  They can see stupidity and lies if you give them a proper comparison.  The govt knows this...that's why they ban creationism and geocentrism in schools.

    So, he was not a flat-earther. :jester::fryingpan:
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #395 on: December 07, 2021, 02:31:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    Here is a blog article:
    Is this what you mean by "consistent agreement"?  Lots of pictures and the word "sphere" being used? 


    You are hyper-focused on the word "sphere".  I want to know:  Did everyone who mentioned "sphere" explain it the same way?  THAT is the key thing.  Just mentioning "sphere" doesn't show the same understanding of the how the world is laid out and operates.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #396 on: December 07, 2021, 03:09:50 PM »
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  • Did everyone who mentioned "sphere" explain it the same way?  THAT is the key thing.  Just mentioning "sphere" doesn't show the same understanding of the how the world is laid out and operates.
    The two main sources of spherical earth cosmology influencing Christendom were Ptolemy and Aristotle.  There were some differences between their cosmologies but they agreed that earth is a sphere and on what was meant by "sphere". De Sphaera is a combination of their ideas.  Just about anybody talking about spherical earth in the medieval period would have used "sphere" in the way that these "authorities" used it. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #397 on: December 07, 2021, 03:16:08 PM »
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  • *sigh* But St Bede wasn't from Medieval times, but 500 years before.  What evidence is there to suggest he viewed sphere earth in the same way as Aristotle or Ptolemy?

    Or...could one interpretation of "sphere" refer to the atmosphere dome?

    Thirdly, what evidence is there to suggest that St Augustine viewed "sphere" in the same way as Aristotle?  Further, Did St Bede reference St Augustine?

    Just because they used the word "sphere" doesn't mean they meant the same thing.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #398 on: December 07, 2021, 03:26:29 PM »
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  • *sigh* But St Bede wasn't from Medieval times, but 500 years before.


    Quote
    In the history of Europe, the Middle Ages or medieval period lasted approximately from the 5th to the late 15th centuries,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages


    Or...could one interpretation of "sphere" refer to the atmosphere dome?

    No it could not. 

    You keep asking me questions but refuse to accept my answers.  Do your own research. 

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #399 on: December 07, 2021, 03:27:43 PM »
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  • *sigh* But St Bede wasn't from Medieval times, but 500 years before.  What evidence is there to suggest he viewed sphere earth in the same way as Aristotle or Ptolemy?

    Or...could one interpretation of "sphere" refer to the atmosphere dome?

    Thirdly, what evidence is there to suggest that St Augustine viewed "sphere" in the same way as Aristotle?  Further, Did St Bede reference St Augustine?

    Just because they used the word "sphere" doesn't mean they meant the same thing.

    The title of the chapter of Bede's work on these topics says: the earth is similar to a globe.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #400 on: December 07, 2021, 03:29:29 PM »
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  • You cherry pick this one but ignore the HUNDREDS of others where the person gave precise measurements, showed the math, calculated atmospheric conditions (in various places around the world), etc.  There are literally hundreds of videos out there showing precisely that.  Oops a boat disappears.  Now zoom in.  Oh, it's back.  This guy in the video just showed one perspective, no zooming.

    So the fact that you cherry pick this one and ignore the hundreds of others showing the exact opposite simply shows your intellectual dishonesty.

    There are THOUSANDS of videos where people provide clear contrary evidence against your beliefs, yet you accuse any selected evidence as "cherry picking". You didn't even try to address the second video.

    At the same time, you have repeatedly been asked to provide evidence and you either won't, or can't.

    All you have are insults and ridicule.

    You seem to be rather upset having your false worldview challenged.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #401 on: December 07, 2021, 03:34:30 PM »
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  • So far, the conclusion of this thread is: Flat earthers didn't do their homework, and didn't present a single hint to any evidence for their charlatan ideas.

    All they do is sidetrack, and try to explain their general mistrust, more less than more like the false and condemned philosophers of the past few centuries.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #402 on: December 07, 2021, 03:44:42 PM »
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  • Has anyone responded to the constellation obection? How you can only see the northern star in the northern hemisphere and constellations that can be seen in Aussie land can't be seen from the USA or Europe.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #403 on: December 07, 2021, 03:48:47 PM »
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  • Quote
    the earth is similar to a globe.
    Of course.  But it depends how you define globe/sphere.  The below picture easily fits the description of a sphere.



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #404 on: December 07, 2021, 03:51:46 PM »
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    Has anyone responded to the constellation obection? How you can only see the northern star in the northern hemisphere and constellations that can be seen in Aussie land can't be seen from the USA or Europe.
    Because the stars are much, much closer to earth than we think.  And telescopes aren't as powerful as we think.  So stars in the southern hemisphere can't be seen by the northern hemisphere because...they are too far away.