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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 151141 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #375 on: December 07, 2021, 10:55:01 AM »
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    • Because "teaching" implies I have to accept it.  Which we don't.  It's a theory.  Stop using the word "teaching"; it's dishonest.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #376 on: December 07, 2021, 11:04:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 07, 2021, 10:55:01 AM
    Because "teaching" implies I have to accept it.  Which we don't.  It's a theory.  Stop using the word "teaching"; it's dishonest.
    There is no obligation of any sort to accept things taught about science in universities, even medieval Catholic universities, or by Doctors of the Church.  You are imagining this implication.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #377 on: December 07, 2021, 11:06:56 AM »
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    • Here's more information that verifies the consideration that the "snow globe" version of creation was very much a long held belief.

    A possible non-literary but graphic indication that people in the Middle Ages believed that the Earth (or perhaps the world) was a sphere is the use of the orb (globus cruciger) in the regalia of many kingdoms and of the Holy Roman Empire. It is attested from the time of the Christian late-Roman emperor Theodosius II (423) throughout the Middle Ages; the Reichsapfel was used in 1191 at the coronation of emperor Henry VI. However the word 'orbis' means 'circle' and there is no record of a globe as a representation of the Earth since ancient times in the west till that of Martin Behaim in 1492. Additionally it could well be a representation of the entire 'world' or cosmos. 


    Wiki also shows us that several prominent Catholics to include saints, as well as those who wrote the Apostolic Constitutions, seem to favor flat earth as seen in this footnote. 


    *Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Methodius, Ephrem Syrus, Gregory of Nyssa, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Cyril of Alexandria, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Procopius of Gaza all offered an intriguing exegesis of the Tabernacle," in relation to the earth and cosmos.  

    Wiki continues:
    Examining the Apostolic Constitutions, Book VII, Chapters 33-37, and Book Viii, Chapter 12, we find its further influence on Constantine's (and Cosmas') method.  The verses quoted in both the Apostolic Constitutions and Christian Topography to describe the structure of the universe are taken from the books of Psalms, Isaiah, and Job rather than from the account of Creation in Genesis giving them a homiletic application to articulate and illustrate a specific physical shape of the cosmos.  

    The created universe is portrayed in both words and pictures as a vaulted rectangle.  The Tabernacle, the Temple and the Ark were all depicted in the same way, since they were made "according to the pattern shown to thee in the mount" EX 25:4

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    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #378 on: December 07, 2021, 11:15:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 06, 2021, 08:46:35 PM
    God is both omnipotent and yet geniusly simple.  He would create a system that is dazzlingly easy to understand yet complex enough to work.  What you describe is full of inefficiency and wasted speed/force. 
    The universe is in some ways geniously simple and efficient, but for us humans it is immensely complex to grasp, we may never even be able to fully understand all of the inner workings of the universe with our limited human mind.

    You were saying how trains, people, objects would fly straight off a rotating sphere, which is simply false due to the laws of physics. I merely tried to explain to you why we don't or wouldn't feel the motions of the body we're standing on because we only feel changes to this motion. Do you feel anything while traveling down a straight highway at constant 75mph? No, of course not. Do you feel something when you're accelerating, braking, or turning the steering wheel? Yes you do, because you feel the change of motion. However, the Earth wouldn't change it's rate of rotation or it's speed of orbit around the Sun. I'm saying "would" because this is under the assumption of a heliocentric system.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #379 on: December 07, 2021, 11:16:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 07, 2021, 11:06:56 AM
    Wiki also shows us that several prominent Catholics to include saints, as well as those who wrote the Apostolic Constitutions, seem to favor flat earth as seen in this footnote.


    *Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Methodius, Ephrem Syrus, Gregory of Nyssa, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Cyril of Alexandria, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Procopius of Gaza all offered an intriguing exegesis of the Tabernacle," in relation to the earth and cosmos. 

    Gregory of Nyssa believed that the earth is a sphere, so "intriguing exegesis of the Tabernacle" cannot be assumed to show support for flat earth.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #380 on: December 07, 2021, 11:21:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 07, 2021, 11:16:31 AM
    Gregory of Nyssa believed that the earth is a sphere, so "intriguing exegesis of the Tabernacle" cannot be assumed to show support for flat earth.
    Providing information as I come across it.  Perhaps there is more to know about the flat earth and the beliefs of earlier Christians.  
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #381 on: December 07, 2021, 11:37:49 AM »
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    There is no obligation of any sort to accept things taught about science in universities, even medieval Catholic universities, or by Doctors of the Church.  You are imagining this implication.
    :facepalm:
    1.  You don't understand the english language and that words have meaning.  The word "Teach" implies a communication of truth/fact.  If something is only a theory, then using "teach" is incorrect.  This is why Galileo got in trouble.  You don't know anything about him?
    2.  Most women don't use precise language for a variety of reasons.  This is why they shouldn't be in the business of educating anyone over 10.
    3.  You completely ignore the Scholastic Method of learning in the Middle Ages and you act as if a "university book" means there was consistent agreement of it.  This is completely false.  A university book means it was a starting point for debate, for deeper understanding, for improvement, for testing.   

    It's apparent you have an agenda and are very biased.:pray:
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #382 on: December 07, 2021, 11:49:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 07, 2021, 11:37:49 AM
    :facepalm:
    1.  You don't understand the english language and that words have meaning.  The word "Teach" implies a communication of truth/fact.  If something is only a theory, then using "teach" is incorrect.  This is why Galileo got in trouble.  You don't know anything about him?
    2.  Most women don't use precise language for a variety of reasons.  This is why they shouldn't be in the business of educating anyone over 10.
    3.  You completely ignore the Scholastic Method of learning in the Middle Ages and you act as if a "university book" means there was consistent agreement of it.  This is completely false.  A university book means it was a starting point for debate, for deeper understanding, for improvement, for testing.   

    It's apparent you have an agenda and are very biased.:pray:

    But, are you over 10? :laugh1:
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #383 on: December 07, 2021, 11:56:11 AM »
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    But, are you over 10?
    I remember in 5th grade, our Trad teacher told us that modern science believes in an earth spinning over 1,000 mph and also revolving around the sun at a whopping 67,000 mph.  :laugh1:  I remember thinking "how stupid".  This gentlemen then told us true, catholic science.  God rest this man's soul - a patriot and real catholic.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #384 on: December 07, 2021, 11:57:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 07, 2021, 11:37:49 AM
    :facepalm:
    1.  You don't understand the english language and that words have meaning.  The word "Teach" implies a communication of truth/fact.  If something is only a theory, then using "teach" is incorrect.  This is why Galileo got in trouble.  You don't know anything about him?

    Yes, St. Bede and everyone else I have mentioned teaching spherical earth were communicating  truth/fact.  This is why "teach" is the correct word.  They were not proposing theories.  (Galileo is irrelevant to this.)

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 07, 2021, 11:37:49 AM
    3.  You completely ignore the Scholastic Method of learning in the Middle Ages and you act as if a "university book" means there was consistent agreement of it.  This is completely false.  A university book means it was a starting point for debate, for deeper understanding, for improvement, for testing.   

    While the mere existence of a university book does not necessarily show there was consistent agreement with it, in the case of De Sphaera, there was consistent agreement with the idea of spherical earth.  There is no evidence of anyone at that time saying anything about the earth being flat.  This just was not a controversial topic.  

    Also, the fact that this book was used for centuries, is a pretty good indication of the respect in which it was held.  It was not just any "university book".
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #385 on: December 07, 2021, 12:01:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 07, 2021, 11:57:14 AM
    Also, the fact that this book was used for centuries, is a pretty good indication of the respect in which it was held.  It was not just any "university book".

    Where and when, and by whom was the book used? Please be specific. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #386 on: December 07, 2021, 12:02:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 07, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
    I remember in 5th grade, our Trad teacher told us that modern science believes in an earth spinning over 1,000 mph and also revolving around the sun at a whopping 67,000 mph.  :laugh1:  I remember thinking "how stupid".  This gentlemen then told us true, catholic science.  God rest this man's soul - a patriot and real catholic. 


    Are you suggesting, that your "Trad teacher" was a flat-earth-tard, was teaching flat-earth as "true, catholic science"?
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #387 on: December 07, 2021, 12:09:32 PM »
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    • First you said it was a fact:

    Quote
    Yes, St. Bede and everyone else I have mentioned teaching spherical earth were communicating  truth/fact....They were not proposing theories. 

    Then you backtrack and say there was "consistent agreement" 

    Quote
    in the case of De Sphaera, there was consistent agreement with the idea of spherical earth. 
    1.  Consistent agreement means there's still disagreement.  It means it's not a fact.  Unless you don't know what "fact" means?

    2.  Then you say there was agreement with the "idea".  Does this mean (as I showed earlier) that people agreed with the conclusion (i.e. sphere earth) but did not agree on the system details?  Seems that's what you're now saying.
    3.  Agreement with a conclusion does not mean there was a consistent, factual agreement on how it worked.  Ergo, not a teaching.


    Quote
    Also, the fact that this book was used for centuries, is a pretty good indication of the respect in which it was held. 
    Now you further water down your original statement by saying the book's use was a "good indication" of its acceptance.

    1.  There weren't many books around prior to the printing press in 1430s.  The Middle Ages didn't have many options :facepalm:
    2.  It's use in debate doesn't mean people believed it was true.  Debate was part of learning.  A book was a starting point for theories and proofs.

    Keep trying...
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #388 on: December 07, 2021, 12:25:39 PM »
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    • Wow! Saying that there is "consistent agreement" means that there is disagreement.  I suppose since I am a woman I am just not capable of using language precisely enough to express that there was no disagreement on the fact the the earth is a sphere.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #389 on: December 07, 2021, 12:29:03 PM »
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    Are you suggesting, that your "Trad teacher" was a flat-earth-tard, was teaching flat-earth as "true, catholic science"?
    Actually, looking back, he was kinda practicing the Scholastic method.  We used "conservative" science books which talked about creationism instead of evolution, but he gave us both sides.  He taught us about evolution and where it didn't make sense.  He taught us Church history and Scripture on creation.  He MADE US THINK.  He challenged us.  He did the same thing with geocentrism vs heliocentrism. 


    Most people don't give kids enough credit.  They can see stupidity and lies if you give them a proper comparison.  The govt knows this...that's why they ban creationism and geocentrism in schools.
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