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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 151222 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #315 on: December 06, 2021, 04:47:37 PM »
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  • Job 37:18 -- Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #316 on: December 06, 2021, 04:49:57 PM »
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  • This is not dogmatic teaching so we are not bound to believe it. 

    It's not ANY kind of "teaching," much less is it dogmatic.  It opines (incorrectly) regarding the shape of the earth.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #317 on: December 06, 2021, 04:53:54 PM »
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  • Pffft.  You spent untold amounts of time explaining that we needn't take the Church Father's scientific observations as theological (per Leo XIII) and now you're claiming that there's a "Catholic understanding" that the earth is a sphere.

    Hogwash.

    Sacred Scripture is very clear about its description of the earth, the firmament, etc.  Church Fathers all believed in the firmament, but you dismiss that ... yet now you're promoting some other Catholic standard.

    Yes, the "earth" is a sphere.  But it's a sphere the same way that a snow globe is a sphere, with a domed firmament on top.
    I have been very clear that I am talking about the historical but not dogmatic understanding of Catholics from the time of St. Bede on.  You are educated enough to know that I am right about this.  It needs to be said due to the widespread misconception that Catholics historically believed the earth was flat.

    The Church Fathers disagreed on the shape of the earth.  St. John Damascene, himself a later Church Father, said as much in his summary of the Catholic faith.  There were a handful who made statements that could interpreted as supporting flat earth in the earliest centuries.  However, St. Augustine and the Cappadocian Fathers taught that Scripture is silent about the shape of the earth and that is the view that ultimately was accepted.  (And even echoed in magisterial teaching.)

    Once this was established, Catholics began to look to science rather than Scripture to determine the shape of the earth.  St. Bede, although more famous as a historian, was also a scientist whose argument for spherical earth was highly influential.  This was what Catholics believed, as science, not dogma, from that point on.

    It is not dogma and you are not obliged to accept it.  You may believe that earth is flat if you like.  Personally, I am convinced by St. Bede and think that it is a sphere.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #318 on: December 06, 2021, 04:57:03 PM »
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  • It's not ANY kind of "teaching," much less is it dogmatic.  It opines (incorrectly) regarding the shape of the earth.
    It is what was taught to virtually everyone attending a Catholic university as long as there have been Catholic universities.  It was not taught as a matter of faith but of science.  It is what Catholics thought.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #319 on: December 06, 2021, 05:17:09 PM »
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  • Quote
    I have been very clear that I am talking about the historical but not dogmatic understanding of Catholics from the time of St. Bede on. 
    Ok, so St Bede died in the mid 700s.


    Quote
    In the De Sphaera passage i quoted there are a couple of references to the "bulge of the earth".
    This book was written in the 1200s. 

    1.  Why was this so influential, if it said the same thing that St Bede said, 500 years earlier? 
    2.  Why is this book said to have been influenced by Ptolemy and not St Bede?

    Either St Bede and the "De Sphaera" taught the same thing or they didn't.  You say they are part of the same, consistent "teaching" but the facts don't seem to prove this.


    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #320 on: December 06, 2021, 05:34:15 PM »
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  • This dude in the video is either a troll or a complete moron.
    Here he uploaded a video to the internet where he claims that theinternet and submarine internet cables do not exist:


    He has no clue what he is talking about, probably never heard of fiber optic cables as well. Or, just a troll, as some of his arguments are just too funny: Ethernet cables are used to connect us to the "Ether". :jester:

    But seriously, you post some random moron from youtube to somehow show that photogrammetry proves a flat earth? That's ridiculous (you also can't use photogrammetry for that).

    If you are serious please answer the argument that I and also Jaynek made above regarding the two different firmaments, or rather the tilting of the firmament when increasing longitude. If your model can't even explain simple observations as this one, or that the moon tilts as well, or that there are solar and lunar eclipses, then I can't give you or any FE proponents any credibility in that regard.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #321 on: December 06, 2021, 05:34:25 PM »
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  • Ok, so St Bede died in the mid 700s.

    This book was written in the 1200s. 

    1.  Why was this so influential, if it said the same thing that St Bede said, 500 years earlier? 
    2.  Why is this book said to have been influenced by Ptolemy and not St Bede?

    Either St Bede and the "De Sphaera" taught the same thing or they didn't.  You say they are part of the same, consistent "teaching" but the facts don't seem to prove this.
    St. Bede's writing was copied and widely dispersed because it had practical applications for things like determining the date of Easter. This is what put it in a position of influence.   The Catholic university system had not been established yet, so monasteries were the main centers of learning.

    Once there were universities, books were written specifically for teaching astronomy in that setting.  De Sphaera was one of these.  In an academic setting, it would have been more desirable to work from Ptolemy because of the respect given to ancient authorities.  This was the main university astronomy textbook for centuries, hence my claim that it was influential.

    Off hand, I cannot think of any significant differences between their understandings of spherical earth or what sort of arguments proved it.  They just had their major influence at different periods of history.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #322 on: December 06, 2021, 05:45:05 PM »
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  • It just seems odd for "De Sphaera" to ignore St Bede and to be influenced by Ptolemy.  If St Bede's views were the same, we would assume St Bede was also influenced by Ptolemy, so "De Sphaera" could ignore Ptolemy and simply quote St Bede.  That didn't happen. 

    Further, everyone says "De Sphaera" was influenced by Ptolemy and Islam, whereas St Bede wasn't around when Islam was vibrant.  So I highly question the assertion that St Bede and "De Sphaera" are a "consistent message".  Islam was influenced by paganism and Judaism and this didn't play a role in St Bede's writings.  Huge difference.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #323 on: December 06, 2021, 05:54:14 PM »
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  • It just seems odd for "De Sphaera" to ignore St Bede and to be influenced by Ptolemy.  If St Bede's views were the same, we would assume St Bede was also influenced by Ptolemy, so "De Sphaera" could ignore Ptolemy and simply quote St Bede.  That didn't happen. 

    It is not odd at all.  At the time, Ptolemy was considered a greater science authority than St. Bede.  By our standards, most of us would probably prefer a Christian source to a pagan one, but that is not they thought of it.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #324 on: December 06, 2021, 06:04:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is not odd at all.  At the time, Ptolemy was considered a greater science authority than St. Bede.  By our standards, most of us would probably prefer a Christian source to a pagan one, but that is not they thought of it.
    But you said that St Bede had the same views as "De Sphaera", no?  You said there was a consistent teaching since St Bede?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #325 on: December 06, 2021, 06:29:53 PM »
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  • But you said that St Bede had the same views as "De Sphaera", no?  You said there was a consistent teaching since St Bede?
    I do not understand what point you are making.  Yes, St. Bede and Sacrobosco and Ptolemy all wrote that the earth is sphere.  

    Here is an excerpt from a Wikipedia article that  describes what St. Bede was writing:


    Quote
    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computusThe Reckoning of Time, that Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe." (De temporum ratione, 32). The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of Earth.[77] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, "Now the Earth's roundness and the Sun's orbit constitute the obstacle to the day's being equally long in every land."[78]

    Bede was lucid about Earth's sphericity, writing "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circuмference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."[7

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #326 on: December 06, 2021, 06:32:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    Yes, St. Bede and Sacrobosco and Ptolemy all wrote that the earth is sphere.  
    Is this the only thing they agreed on?  Is this the only detail which you base you "consistent teaching" comment on?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #327 on: December 06, 2021, 06:43:15 PM »
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  • Is this the only thing they agreed on?  Is this the only detail which you base you "consistent teaching" comment on?
    St. Bede wrote a practical treatise on calculating the date of Easter in which he mentioned, almost in passing, that the earth is a sphere.  De Sphaera is a detailed account of the principles of astronomy for academics, in which the sphericity of the earth is one of the main points. They are different kinds of writing, but using the same basic assumption - geocentric spherical earth.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #328 on: December 06, 2021, 06:57:54 PM »
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  • Quote
    St. Bede wrote a practical treatise on calculating the date of Easter in which he mentioned, almost in passing, that the earth is a sphere.  De Sphaera is a detailed account of the principles of astronomy for academics, in which the sphericity of the earth is one of the main points. They are different kinds of writing, but using the same basic assumption - geocentric spherical earth.
    Ok, that's what I thought.

    1.  For St Bede to mention something "in passing" is not a detailed explanation, thus it cannot be considered a teaching because he didn't explain anything. 
    2.  "De Sphaera" is based on Ptolemy but St Bede did not base his comment on Ptolemy, so again, no consistency. 

    3.  A "consistent teaching" presupposes that both teachers believe the same for the same reasons.
    4.  Since St Bede didn't explain his reasons, all we know is his conclusion.
    5.  2 people having the same conclusion does not mean they agree on "why the conclusion is correct".

    6.  Since St Bede wasn't influenced by Judaic-islam, then his reasons cannot be the same as in "De Sphaera".
    7.  Since "De Sphaera" didn't reference St Bede, then their reasons aren't proven to be similar.
    8.  Thus, you should stop saying there is a "consistent teaching" but must treat St Bede as having an isolated opinion, from which we don't know the origin.

    Since you present yourself as a semi-expert on this issue, you should know all of the above.  If you don't know the above, then you should stop posting about the topic.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #329 on: December 06, 2021, 07:19:22 PM »
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  • Ok, that's what I thought.

    1.  For St Bede to mention something "in passing" is not a detailed explanation, thus it cannot be considered a teaching because he didn't explain anything. 
    2.  "De Sphaera" is based on Ptolemy but St Bede did not base his comment on Ptolemy, so again, no consistency. 

    3.  A "consistent teaching" presupposes that both teachers believe the same for the same reasons.
    4.  Since St Bede didn't explain his reasons, all we know is his conclusion.
    5.  2 people having the same conclusion does not mean they agree on "why the conclusion is correct".

    6.  Since St Bede wasn't influenced by Judaic-islam, then his reasons cannot be the same as in "De Sphaera".
    7.  Since "De Sphaera" didn't reference St Bede, then their reasons aren't proven to be similar.
    8.  Thus, you should stop saying there is a "consistent teaching" but must treat St Bede as having an isolated opinion, from which we don't know the origin.

    Since you present yourself as a semi-expert on this issue, you should know all of the above.  If you don't know the above, then you should stop posting about the topic.

    My exact words were "almost in passing".  He was talking about spherical earth in the context of how it relates to calculating dates.  St. Bede did, however, give proofs of the earth being a sphere and they are similar to those used by Sacrobosco.

    I am not an expert or semi-expert.  I just know more about the subject than a person who claims that most Catholics of the past believed that the earth is flat.  From the time of St. Bede onwards, virtually all educated Catholics believed the earth is a sphere.  This is true whether they believed exactly the same things or if there were slight variations in their understanding.

    You are grasping at straws to have an excuse to disregard this truth.