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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 151170 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #480 on: December 08, 2021, 10:38:09 AM »
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  • Here is the passage from St. Augustine that I mentioned upthread.  It is taken from DE GENESIAD LITTERAM:


    It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them.   Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial.

    What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?...

    Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #481 on: December 08, 2021, 10:38:33 AM »
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  • It is Anti-Catholic Protestants, Atheists and Agnostics, who began the Flat-Earth Lie, to Discredit the Roman Catholic Church. Please educate yourselves and do the research. It's very easy these days.

    So are these "Anti-Catholic Protestants" "True Christians"?

    Yet another lie, Xavier.  What's wrong with you lately?  Some of the Church Fathers believed the earth was flat.  Sacred Scripture could be interpreted that way.  So ... no.  That's fine if you disagree, but stop making things up.

    Then of course, there's the fact that I don't believe it to be any "lie" ... but the truth.  You beg the question (as is your habit on a lot of issues) that it's a lie.



    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #482 on: December 08, 2021, 10:39:53 AM »
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  • We are Traditional Catholics. Not Protestant.
    Then act like it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #483 on: December 08, 2021, 10:42:29 AM »
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  • Here is the passage from St. Augustine that I mentioned upthread.  It is taken from DE GENESI. AD LITTERAM:


    It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them.  Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial.

    What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?...

    Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation.



    Kindof.  St. Robert Bellarmine addressed this during the Galileo situation.  Some scientific matters could be matters of faith to the extent that they uproot the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture.  That is in fact why the Holy Office condemned heliocentrism as HERESY.

    St. Robert said that they are not matters of faith ex parte objecti but they are ex parte subjecti ... if I recall the exact Latin phrases.  So the object of the propositions isn't a matter of faith (i.e. the configuration of the cosmos), but the inerracny of Holy Scripture (the subject) turns it into a matter of faith.

    This passage from St. Augustine is way overused ... and leveraged by Modernists, eventually morphing into the suggestion that Sacred Scripture can err except when it's teaching about matters of faith, etc.

    EDIT:  ex parte subjecti should be ex parte dicentis (from the perspective of who said it).  Just looked it up.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #484 on: December 08, 2021, 10:43:07 AM »
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  • You are doing exactly the opposite of what St. Augustine taught.  He wrote that it is incorrect and of no spiritual benefit to use such statements as the basis of a cosmology.  And this is not simply an opinion of a Father of the Church; it was incorporated into magisterial teaching by Leo XIII.  We cannot simply ignore it.

    This approach to Scripture is essentially Protestant and should not be practiced by Catholics.
    So you're saying do not read with understanding? Understand the opposite of what the words in scripture say for fear of seeing? Why would I do that?    


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #485 on: December 08, 2021, 10:43:19 AM »
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  • Then act like it.

    One of the things that you used to do in the old days of discussing this subject, was to try to upset people in order to get the thread shut down. That's not going to work anymore. I hope you understand why. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #486 on: December 08, 2021, 10:47:00 AM »
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  • Because I'm going through Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus now, and he states that we must the guided by the Fathers and the Church in interpretation and not stray from the definitions provided by the Church. 

    I agree that Providentissimus Deus is what we should be looking at to guide our approach to Scripture.  Here is the passage that I believe especially pertains to our discussion:


    Quote
     To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

    19. The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."(56) The Catholic interpreter, although he should show that those facts of natural science which investigators affirm to be now quite certain are not contrary to the Scripture rightly explained, must nevertheless always bear in mind, that much which has been held and proved as certain has afterwards been called in question and rejected. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #487 on: December 08, 2021, 10:51:16 AM »
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  • No, it isn't. You are ignorant of history, especially recent history. What I said about what Anti-Catholic Protestants, and then Atheists and Agnostics, is 100% accurate and I proved it.

    Yes, its's a lie.  It was not "begun" by the Protestants when some of the Church Fathers ... many centuries before them ... also believed this.  So to say that Anti-Protestants "began" it is an abject lie.  You could say they "revived" it perhaps, but not that they "began" it.  So ... lie.  In fact, many, most, perhaps all ancient cultures believed that the earth was flat, until some of the Greeks thought otherwise.

    Aren't you supposed to be takig some test?


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #488 on: December 08, 2021, 10:51:59 AM »
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  • You are doing exactly the opposite of what St. Augustine taught.  He wrote that it is incorrect and of no spiritual benefit to use such statements as the basis of a cosmology.  And this is not simply an opinion of a Father of the Church; it was incorporated into magisterial teaching by Leo XIII.  We cannot simply ignore it.

    This approach to Scripture is essentially Protestant and should not be practiced by Catholics.
    What exactly did Leo XIII incorporate into magisterial teaching about this? 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #489 on: December 08, 2021, 10:54:47 AM »
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  • I already proved the Prophet Isaiah, Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, St. Augustine, St. Bede and St. Thomas taught the the Earth was a Globe. You've had no answer to that.

    You didnt' "prove" anything.  Nor did these Fathers "teach" anything.  And you also lie that I had "no answer for that".  Answer is that St. John Chrysostom and the Antiochene Church Fathers believed in a flat earth, as did some others.  So there was no consensus of any kind among the Church Fathers about the matter.  Our Lord Jesus Christ said nothing of the sort.  So you add lie upon lie.  I suspect that the devil has taken hold of you somehow, since he is the exemplar for lying.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #490 on: December 08, 2021, 10:56:46 AM »
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  • Kindof.  St. Robert Bellarmine addressed this during the Galileo situation.  Some scientific matters could be matters of faith to the extent that they uproot the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture.  That is in fact why the Holy Office condemned heliocentrism as HERESY.

    St. Robert said that they are not matters of faith ex parte objecti but they are ex parte subjecti ... if I recall the exact Latin phrases.  So the object of the propositions isn't a matter of faith (i.e. the configuration of the cosmos), but the inerracny of Holy Scripture (the subject) turns it into a matter of faith.

    This passage from St. Augustine is way overused ... and leveraged by Modernists, eventually morphing into the suggestion that Sacred Scripture can err except when it's teaching about matters of faith, etc.

    It is true enough that Augustine's teaching could be (and has been) abused.  They might be applied to issues they shouldn't be or used to erode our belief in the errancy of Scripture.  But we are discussing the issue of cosmological models which is the exact question that he was addressing. 
     
    When he wrote "What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?"  he was writing about the very same models that we have been - the classical/medieval model of a spherical earth within a spherical universe as opposed to the dome over a flat earth.




    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #491 on: December 08, 2021, 10:59:31 AM »
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  • What exactly did Leo XIII incorporate into magisterial teaching about this?
    If you carefully read the excerpt that I posted from Providentissimus Deus you can see how he is quoting, affirming and even extending the application of St. Augustine's teaching.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #492 on: December 08, 2021, 11:03:16 AM »
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  • Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.



    Indeed, God had it written in a way so that men could understand.  There is no way to come to the conclusion or understand the modern pagan science that earth is a globe.  Scripture describes in a way that verifies what we see, what reality is.  For which I'm grateful.       

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #493 on: December 08, 2021, 11:07:20 AM »
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  • I already proved the Prophet Isaiah, Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, St. Augustine, St. Bede and St. Thomas taught the the Earth was a Globe. You've had no answer to that.

    Even if it were appropriate to use Scripture to support cosmology, that Isaiah passage falls apart as a proof when one looks at the original languages.  Our Lord did not teach us about the shape of the earth either way.  St. Augustine probably believed the earth is a sphere (my personal view and that of the majority of scholars) but he did not teach it clearly.  St. Bede and St. Thomas admittedly taught that the earth was a globe, but since they did this as a matter of science it is not binding on Catholics.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #494 on: December 08, 2021, 11:11:14 AM »
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  • It is true enough that Augustine's teaching could be (and has been) abused.  They might be applied to issues they shouldn't be or used to erode our belief in the errancy of Scripture.  But we are discussing the issue of cosmological models which is the exact question that he was addressing.
     
    When he wrote "What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?"  he was writing about the very same models that we have been - the classical/medieval model of a spherical earth within a spherical universe as opposed to the dome over a flat earth.
    One minute you ignore or deny flat earth science, deny the Fathers that do believe flat earth in favor of one who doesn't, then deny whether scripture says anything about it, then you deny that it matters.  This is a sure sign such a chaotic position will never arrive at truth.