Author Topic: Modesty in dress changes with the times? (Read 4621 times)

clare · « **Reply #30 on:** September 01, 2015, 11:40:28 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

... Up to the XIV century, virtually all Catholic ladies imitated Our Lady in modesty, as we are called to do regardless of changes in historical periods and emerging fashions of the world....

Why aren't men expected to imitate Our Lord or St Joseph regardless of the emerging fashions of the world?

Cantarella · « **Reply #31 on:** September 01, 2015, 11:59:27 AM »

Quote from: clare

Quote from: Cantarella
... Up to the XIV century, virtually all Catholic ladies imitated Our Lady in modesty, as we are called to do regardless of changes in historical periods and emerging fashions of the world....

Why aren't men expected to imitate Our Lord or St Joseph regardless of the emerging fashions of the world?

Men did not start wearing pants, instead of robes, out of a Revolutionary mindset opposed to Christendom.

Women started wearing pants, instead of skirts, out of a Revolutionary mindset opposed to Christendom: Feminism.

jen51 · « **Reply #32 on:** September 01, 2015, 12:10:41 PM »

Clare, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I am not saying this to offend. A question like that makes me wonder if you believe that men and women are equal in all ways. It sounds like something the typical modern woman's rights activist would say.

As we know, we are not equal. Men and women have very distinct differences, and one of those being that women, given their God given bodies, have an incredible amount of power over a man's mind when not dressed properly- more so than a man would have over a woman. A woman is under greater obligation to conceal because she has the greater power to lead men astray. It's not wrong- it's just the way it is.

As women we should be proud to look at our Mother, and try to imitate her as we are instructed to do, not complain that men don't have to do it too. That indicates a rebellious and proud spirit, the same spirit that gave rise to the disaster called feminism.

clare · « **Reply #33 on:** September 01, 2015, 12:27:30 PM »

Quote from: jen51

Clare, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I am not saying this to offend. A question like that makes me wonder if you believe that men and women are equal in all ways.

No I don't.

Quote

As we know, we are not equal. Men and women have very distinct differences, and one of those being that women, given their God given bodies, have an incredible amount of power over a man's mind when not dressed properly- more so than a man would have over a woman. A woman is under greater obligation to conceal because she has the greater power to lead men astray. It's not wrong- it's just the way it is.

I agree, and women who wear trousers would be well advised to wear a tunic over them to conceal the hip area.

Quote

As women we should be proud to look at our Mother, and try to imitate her as we are instructed to do, not complain that men don't have to do it too.

We imitate her by fitting in and not standing out.

Shouldn't men imitate St Joseph? It doesn't mean they have to dress like him.

(No one should be proud.)

MaterDominici · « **Reply #34 on:** September 01, 2015, 12:38:09 PM »

Quote from: RomanCatholic1953

Quote from: shin
'Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord will appear. People who follow God should not follow fashions. The Church has no fashions. Our Lord was always the same.'

Bl. Jacinta Marto of Fatima, age 9, from her last words

Quotations on Modesty and Purity

Please reference your quote. Blessed Jacinta Marto of Fatima never said
such a thing. She said just the opposite.

Discussion on that quote here:
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30861&min=0&num=5

ADD: I now see your subsequent post, but am leaving this here for anyone else who may be interested.

jen51 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 01, 2015, 12:51:19 PM »

Oh sure, of course men should imitate St. Joseph! As far as I know, Catholic men are highly encouraged to do this- I hear it from priests all the time. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, I thought you were referring to imitating him just in dress.

I agree that Our Lady was very content to stay in the background, to remain unseen. However, that does not excuse us from our duty to not wear men's clothing. Avoiding pants does not make us stick out generally.

When I made the switch (though it was slow) from pants most of the time to skirts, my main and sincere objection and obstacle to it was exactly what many other trad women do/did say, and that is that to wear skirts all the time makes you stick out, and I don't want to draw attention to myself. After I finally bit the bullet and learned to get past that feeling I came to understand the reality- that my fears were largely unfounded, that I stick out A LOT less than I thought I did. Women who have no religious affiliation at all often wear skirts most of the time out of preference. You see women wearing skirts everywhere. I think a lot of it was the Devil tempting me to believe that I was drawing attention to myself, but it wasn't true.

Now to address the fact that skirts do indeed make you stick out at certain times. This is unavoidable, not immodest. I whole-heartedly believe that Our Lady would continue to dress modestly even if nobody else was. She remained in the background, being meek and humble because she is a woman, and she is the perfection of womanly nature. There are times that Our Lady stood out.

When Our Lord hung upon the cross, nearly everyone left- but she remained and everyone knew it. To this day we remember her doing this and use it as example for ourselves to remain with Our Lord. She did what most others would not do because it was right and good. She stuck out, and it led people to God.

So you see, sticking out is ok when it is necessary. Our Lady did it, Our Lord did it. Why then can't we do it?

clare · « **Reply #36 on:** September 01, 2015, 01:18:54 PM »

Quote from: jen51

Oh sure, of course men should imitate St. Joseph! As far as I know, Catholic men are highly encouraged to do this- I hear it from priests all the time. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, I thought you were referring to imitating him just in dress.

I agree that Our Lady was very content to stay in the background, to remain unseen. However, that does not excuse us from our duty to not wear men's clothing. Avoiding pants does not make us stick out generally.

I totally agree. Where I disagree is with the idea that trouser-like garments are always and everywhere objectively male attire. Some clearly are not, and men shouldn't wear them because they would be wearing female attire.

I have no problem with the scriptural prohibition with cross-dressing, and if scripture made it clear that trousers (which no one wore then) can only ever be designed for men, I would have no problem with that. But it doesn't.

Quote

Now to address the fact that skirts do indeed make you stick out at certain times.

I don't think they do, though. I'm not saying that skirts make one stand out. Some do, some don't.

Quote

So you see, sticking out is ok when it is necessary. Our Lady did it, Our Lord did it. Why then can't we do it?

Yes, when necessary we must.

jen51 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 01, 2015, 02:34:55 PM »

Quote from: clare

We imitate her by fitting in and not standing out.

What are you referring to, here? I'm assuming you meant something about dress, since that is the topic of discussion.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #38 on:** September 01, 2015, 04:26:16 PM »

Quote from: jen51

Quote from: clare

We imitate her by fitting in and not standing out.

What are you referring to, here? I'm assuming you meant something about dress, since that is the topic of discussion.

Probably means wearing pants.

clare · « **Reply #39 on:** September 02, 2015, 04:10:16 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Quote from: jen51
Quote from: clare

We imitate her by fitting in and not standing out.

What are you referring to, here? I'm assuming you meant something about dress, since that is the topic of discussion.

Probably means wearing pants.

No, I don't. I mean she wouldn't wear fashions from 100 years ago. That doesn't mean she must wear trousers to fit in. I was really addressing the idea that Catholics should not follow fashion. Obviously, if the fashion is immoral, we shouldn't. But if it isn't, we should, as St Thomas Aquinas said. But women can be fashionable in skirts. I'm sure Our Lady wouldn't wear trousers. That doesn't make women's trousers intrinsically wrong.

I wonder if she would go about veiled in public if she were about today. That would make her stand out, and be mistaken for certain adherents of false religions, at least if she were in the West.

Anyway, this is what I'm getting at by fitting in and not standing out.

clare · « **Reply #40 on:** September 02, 2015, 05:10:06 AM »

Quote from: clare

I wonder if she would go about veiled in public if she were about today. That would make her stand out, and be mistaken for certain adherents of false religions, at least if she were in the West.

Thinking more on this. She might wear a hat, I guess. Not an ostentatious one.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #41 on:** September 02, 2015, 07:49:49 AM »

Quote from: clare

Quote from: Disputaciones
Quote from: jen51
Quote from: clare

We imitate her by fitting in and not standing out.

What are you referring to, here? I'm assuming you meant something about dress, since that is the topic of discussion.

Probably means wearing pants.

No, I don't. I mean she wouldn't wear fashions from 100 years ago. That doesn't mean she must wear trousers to fit in. I was really addressing the idea that Catholics should not follow fashion. Obviously, if the fashion is immoral, we shouldn't. But if it isn't, we should, as St Thomas Aquinas said. But women can be fashionable in skirts. I'm sure Our Lady wouldn't wear trousers. That doesn't make women's trousers intrinsically wrong.

I wonder if she would go about veiled in public if she were about today. That would make her stand out, and be mistaken for certain adherents of false religions, at least if she were in the West.

Anyway, this is what I'm getting at by fitting in and not standing out.

What's the big deal of not fitting in? Who cares? Is this the most important thing? You can't please God and the world at the same time.

Why would you have to make changes in your life to please godless people who couldn't care less what you do and actually would like you gone? Why would you have to live in dependence of what others might think?

I would agree to fit in with a CATHOLIC society, but not in the one we have today.

Members of other religions have made me wonder if I'm ashamed because they don't care to do things in public for their religion, they don't care to stand out, whereas I do, with certain things.

clare · « **Reply #42 on:** September 02, 2015, 08:30:11 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

What's the big deal of not fitting in? Who cares? Is this the most important thing?

Well I did say before:

Quote from: St Thomas Aquinas

I answer that, It is not in the outward things themselves which man uses, that there is vice, but on the part of man who uses them immoderately. This lack of moderation occurs in two ways. First, in comparison with the customs of those among whom one lives; wherefore Augustine says (Confess. iii, 8): "Those offenses which are contrary to the customs of men, are to be avoided according to the customs generally prevailing, so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of any, whether citizen or foreigner. For any part, which harmonizeth not with its whole, is offensive."
...

Summa Theologica

clare · « **Reply #43 on:** September 02, 2015, 08:48:37 AM »

Quote from: St John Baptiste de La Salle

If you wish to be dressed appropriately,follow the customs of the country, and dress more or less like people of your rank and age. Still, it is important to take care that your clothes have nothing luxurious or anything superfluous about them. You must avoid whatever suggests ostentation or worldliness.

The best way to judge the appropriateness of clothing is by custom; follow it without fail. Because the human spirit is prone to change and the things that pleased us yesterday no longer do so today, there have been invented, and are still being invented every day, all sorts of different ways of dressing to satisfy this changing spirit. Those who would want to dress as people did 30 years ago would make themselves look ridiculous and eccentric. It is, however, characteristic of the conduct of people of good judgment never to attract attention to themselves in any way.

Fashion is what people call the style in which clothes are made at a given time.You ought to follow it in the matter of your hats, linen,and outer garments. It would be against decorum for you to wear a tall hat or one with a wide brim when everyone else uses low-cut hats with narrow brims. Nevertheless, it is not always advisable to adopt all the newest fashions right away. Some of them are capricious and bizarre, while some are reasonable and conformable to decorum. Just as you ought not to go against the latter, neither must you adopt too hastily the former,which ordinarily are followed only by a few people and do not last very long.

The surest and most reasonable rule concerning fashion is do not invent your own, do not be the first to try it, and do not wait until everyone else has given it up before abandoning it.

The Rules of Christian Decorum and Civility