Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: steelcross on March 11, 2015, 10:49:22 PM
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I seen some discussions on this. It is said in the catechism, it is a sin if it deprives one of their wages. What if there was no money involved? And just for plain recreation. I myself never gambled, and I will never go to a casino. I'm curious because I want to know the answer. Thank you in advance. God bless you all.
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Catholics are permited to play card games during our times of recreation. Play as much as you want and heve fun.
:cool: :cool: :cool:
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The sin of defrauding a laborer of his wages is just that - cheating a man out of the wages he is due for work he has performed.
This is unrelated to gambling - which, like drinking alcohol, is not sinful if done in moderation.
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The sin of defrauding a laborer of his wages is just that - cheating a man out of the wages he is due for work he has performed.
This is unrelated to gambling - which, like drinking alcohol, is not sinful if done in moderation.
Exactly.
OP, you are confusing two different sins.
Excessive gambling and failing to support one's family are separate, distinct sins. Both are distinct from the sin of hiring a man and not paying him his due wages.
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The sin of defrauding a laborer of his wages is just that - cheating a man out of the wages he is due for work he has performed.
This is unrelated to gambling - which, like drinking alcohol, is not sinful if done in moderation.
Exactly.
OP, you are confusing two different sins.
Excessive gambling and failing to support one's family are separate, distinct sins. Both are distinct from the sin of hiring a man and not paying him his due wages.
And all of which are distinct from playing cards for recreation with no gambling / no money involved.
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In the 1600's, the hunted priests carried a deck of cards with them. Why? Well, it kept their cover. The non-catholic protestants played cards a lot. It took up their time, for they did not pray. You may have read this about idleness and making use of your time well. It is also said, of those in purgatory that they wish they would have spent their time more wisely in prayer.
so, yes, you may play cards. It is a sin in my thoughts IF one gets addicted to it.
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I play online poker for fun. I do not gamble money.
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It's always sad when you scratch a traditional Catholic and find a Baptist underneath.
Drinks and card games for the whole house!
:alcohol:
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It's always sad when you scratch a traditional Catholic and find a Baptist underneath.
Drinks and card games for the whole house!
:alcohol:
AGREED!
Back alley and euchre for everybody, after Lent of course.......,
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From very early times gambling was forbidden by canon law. Two of the oldest (41, 42) among the so-called canons of the Apostles forbade games of chance under pain of excommunication to clergy and laity alike. The 79th canon of the Council of Elvira (306) decreed that one of the faithful who had been guilty of gambling might be, on amendment, restored to communion after the lapse of a year. A homily (the famous "De Aleatoribus") long ascribed by St. Cyprian, but by modern scholars variously attributed to Popes Victor I, Callistus I, and Melchiades, and which undoubtedly is a very early and interesting monument of Christian antiquity, is a vigorous denunciation of gambling. The Fourth Lateran Council (1215), by a decree subsequently inserted in the "Corpus Juris", forbade clerics to play or to be present at games of chance. Some authorities, such as Aubespine, have attempted to explain the severity of the ancient canons against gambling by supposing that idolatry was often connected with it in practice. The pieces that were played with were small-sized idols, or images of the gods, which were invoked by the players for good luck. However, as Benedict XIV remarks, this can hardly be true, as in that case the penalties would have been still more severe.
Profane writers of antiquity are almost as severe in their condemnation of gambling as are the councils of the Christian Church. Tacitus and Ammianus Marcellinus tell us that by gambling men are led into fraud, cheating, lying, perjury, theft, and other enormities; while Peter of Blois says that dice is the mother of perjury, theft, and sacrilege. The old canonists and theologians remark that although the canons generally mention only dice by name, yet under this appellation must be understood all games of chance; and even those that require skill, if they are played for money.
The Council of Trent contented itself with ordering all the ancient canons on the subject to be observed. and in general prescribed that the clergy were to abstain from unlawful games. As Benedict XIV remarks, it was left to the judgment of the bishops to decide what games should be held to be unlawful according to the different circuŠ¼stances of person, place, and time. St. Charles Borromeo, in the first Synod of Milan, put the Tridentine decree into execution, and drew up a list of games which were forbidden to the clergy, and another list of those that were allowed. Among those which he forbade were not only dicing in various forms, but also games something like our croquet and football. Other particular councils declared that playing at dice and cards was unbecoming and forbidden to clerics, and in general they forbade all games which were unbecoming to the clerical state. Thus, a council held at Bordeaux in 1583 decreed that the clergy were to abstain altogether from playing in public or in private at dice, cards, or any other forbidden and unbecoming game. The council held at Aix in 1585 forbade them to play at cards, dice or any other game of the like kind, and even to look on at the playing of such games. Another, held at Narbonne in 1609, decreed that clerics were not to play at dice, cards, or other unlawful and unbecoming games, especially in public.
There was some doubt as to whether chess was to be considered an unbecoming, and therefore, an unlawful, game for clerics. In the opinion of St. Peter Damian it was certainly unlawful. On one occasion he caught the Bishop of Florence playing chess, to while away the time when on a journey. The bishop tried to defend himself by saying that chess was not dice. The saint, however, refused to admit the distinction, especially as the bishop was playing in public. Scripture, he said, does not make express mention of chess, but it is comprised under the term dice. And Baronius defends the saint's doctrine. Some sciolist, he remarks, may say that St. Peter Damian was under a delusion in classing chess under dice, since chess is not a game of chance but calls for the exercise of much skill and talent. Let that be as it may, he proceeds, priests must at any rate be guided in their conduct by the words of St. Paul, who declared that what is not expedient, what is not edifying, is not allowed.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06375b.htm
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Honestly I am starting to think many of you would consider the Church Fathers "Puritans" if you actually read their writings.
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Honestly I am starting to think many of you would consider the Church Fathers "Puritans" if you actually read their writings.
I am aware that many of the Church Fathers and many other members of the Church condemned gambling. I am also aware that recently the Church seems to allow it, even to the point of sponsoring it and having Bingo games and poker nights and raffles. Because of this I don't know what the Church officially teaches so I do not gamble for money because it might be a sin. I play games and hope it is not a sin because no money is involved.
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Honestly I am starting to think many of you would consider the Church Fathers "Puritans" if you actually read their writings.
Good to hear said!
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This reminds me of the question of whether or not it is sinful for a woman to wear make-up. I remember reading from older Church sources that it was a sin for a woman to wear make-up but today everyone does it and nobody says anything.
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If you work by the sweat of your brow then you know the true cost of your earnings. To much idle time will always be a resipe for trouble like excessive gambling and part-time Internet theologians.
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I'm on the fence with this .I stopped playing poker for a year or so as it s eemed to be taking too much of my time, I played the other week with friends for 40$ texas holdem, we play less often now, just to have the friends together I may organize a game for less money..say 20$...but maybe I can be convinced this is not a great idea...from my readings of the church father games of chance were forbidden, for example dice....but I believe they made a distinction when it came to games of skill, as long as it wasn't for anything of considerable value
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Thank you all for every comment. I never drink alcohol. On occasion a little wine. I don't go to bars, I prefer to stay at home. I have no friends. I fully understand we are in the season of lent. I'm not addicted to playing cards. I just wanted to be sure. The only time I gambled, was playing the lottery, which is gambling, but I no longer do that. God bless you all, and May Jesus and Mary bless you and keep you.
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Honestly I am starting to think many of you would consider the Church Fathers "Puritans" if you actually read their writings.
The Church Fathers had diverse opinions on some of these subjects, and, yes, one can even find material heresies in the writings of some of the Fathers.
The Fathers are not to be elevated above the Universal Ordinary Magisterium. If the pre VII Church did not outright condemn moderate gambling, then neither should we. It is an error to look at the Fathers as being "purer" than the Church since the Middle Ages. Look at how the Novus Ordites interminably quote St. Cyril of Jerusalem's "make a throne of your hands" as justification for reception of Holy Communion in the hands, despite the later practice (Communion on the tongue) being an objectively superior and more reverent method of reception.
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If you work by the sweat of your brow then you know the true cost of your earnings. To much idle time will always be a resipe for trouble like excessive gambling and part-time Internet theologians.
Or excessive watching baseball games on TV or highlights on ESPN.
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IF you would dance or play rightly, it must be done as a recreation, not as a pursuit, for a brief space of time, not so as make you unfit for other things, and even then but seldom. If it is a constant habit, recreation turns into occupation. You will ask when it is right to dance or play? The occasions on which it is right to play at questionable games are rare; ordinary games and dances may be indulged in more frequently. But let your rule be to do so chiefly when courteous consideration for others among whom you are thrown requires it, subject to prudence and discretion; for consideration towards others often sanctions things indifferent or dangerous, and turns them to good, taking away what is evil. Thus certain games of chance, bad in themselves, cease to be so to you, if you join in them merely out of a due courtesy. I have been much comforted by reading in the Life of S. Carlo Borromeo, how he joined in certain things to please the Swiss, concerning which ordinarily he was very strict; as also how S. Ignatius Loyola, when asked to play, did so. As to S. Elizabeth of Hungary, she both played and danced occasionally, when in society, without thereby hindering her devotion, which was so firmly rooted that, like the rocks of a mountain lake, it stood unmoved amid the waves and storms of pomp and vanity which it encountered.
Great fires are fanned by the wind, but a little one is soon extinguished if left without shelter.
Introduction to the Devout Life (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life.v.xxxiv.html)
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Next thing someone will ask is if playing Bingo at the parish hall is sinful!