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Author Topic: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?  (Read 1855 times)

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Offline cassini

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Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2021, 07:07:33 AM »
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    Another consideration is relevancy.  Does it matter one way or another the way space works or the distant past of the earth?  In my opinion pretty much no, anything that is not working towards the salvation of souls is ancillary at best and totally irrelevant at another end of the spectrum.

    Let me put it to you Durango another way: Does it matter what way God created the universe?
    Does it matter what God revealed about His universe in the Bible?

    Does it matter what Cardinal Bellarmine said in his 1615 Letter to Foscarini?

    Second. I say that, as you know, the Council of Trent prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers. And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the Earth, and that the Earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the centre of the universe. Now consider whether in all prudence the Church could encourage giving to Scripture a sense contrary to the holy Fathers and all the Latin and Greek commentators. Nor may it be answered that this is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter (ex parte objecti), it is a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’

    Does it matter that a geocentric creation cannot be made evolve naturally whereas the heliocentric one can and became the first evolution theory that eventually led to millions losing faith in a divine Creator?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #31 on: April 21, 2021, 07:44:52 AM »
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    Oh no.  Not GEOCENTRISM again and the "INFALLIBLE" decree of Pius V.
    Haven't we had enough of this ?

    No, but I think we've heard enough from you on this subject.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #32 on: April 21, 2021, 07:53:46 AM »
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  • Let me put it to you Durango another way: Does it matter what way God created the universe?
    Does it matter what God revealed about His universe in the Bible?

    Does it matter what Cardinal Bellarmine said in his 1615 Letter to Foscarini?

    Second. I say that, as you know, the Council of Trent prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers. And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the Earth, and that the Earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the centre of the universe. Now consider whether in all prudence the Church could encourage giving to Scripture a sense contrary to the holy Fathers and all the Latin and Greek commentators. Nor may it be answered that this is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter (ex parte objecti), it is a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’

    Does it matter that a geocentric creation cannot be made evolve naturally whereas the heliocentric one can and became the first evolution theory that eventually led to millions losing faith in a divine Creator?

    I'll have to ponder your statement that a geocentric creation cannot be made to evolve naturally.  Of course, God can do whatever He wants, but I guess from the perspective of the naturalist/rationalist scientists, they would certainly be at a loss to explain how a geocentric reality could have evolved by chance.  Of course, they haven't really explained how the complexity of life could have evolved by chance either, but that doesn't stop them from asserting it anyway.

    More important than the question itself (ex parte objecti) of whether the earth moves are the principles behind Scriptural interpretation.  If the unanimous interpretations of the Fathers could be wrong on this point, then they could be wrong on other points.  If certain things are just story or allegory vs. literal historical accounts, then anything could be read that way.  Next step is that the entire Genesis account is just non-scientific, non-historical ... just a story made up to illustrate some unknown theological point.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #33 on: April 21, 2021, 07:58:29 AM »
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  • I can see the argument that expressions like the "rising" and "setting" of the sun are simply descriptions based on perspective from earth.  Even heliocentrists today still use those terms.

    But the key to geocentrism lies in the fact that Genesis clearly explains that God created the earth BEFORE He created the stars.  There's simply no talking around that.  Either that is true, or the entire Genesis account is just a "nice story".

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #34 on: April 21, 2021, 09:12:25 AM »
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  • I've been wanting to add one comment to this thread since I first saw it:

    What does it MATTER what position a single, private, lay CathInfo member holds on a given topic?

    I really don't like threads which call out members by name. And I'll explain why:

    Can't we discuss ideas, and not worry so much about individuals and personalities? Isn't focusing on this or that individual -- especially non-clerics, who really don't have much influence and don't matter in the scheme of things -- the exact opposite of what we should be doing ideally?

    I'm the owner and sole moderator of this forum -- there might be a couple other forums "about as popular/large" in the English speaking world but there are none larger. Nevertheless, I'd be the first to say that my opinion doesn't mean jack squat. As a lay nobody, I restrict myself to regurgitating CATHOLIC DOCTRINE and when I occasionally spout my opinion, I make it clear that it's my opinion and that everyone is free to agree or disagree.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #35 on: April 21, 2021, 10:12:50 AM »
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  • I can see the argument that expressions like the "rising" and "setting" of the sun are simply descriptions based on perspective from earth.  Even heliocentrists today still use those terms.

    But the key to geocentrism lies in the fact that Genesis clearly explains that God created the earth BEFORE He created the stars.  There's simply no talking around that.  Either that is true, or the entire Genesis account is just a "nice story".
    Without getting into the helio vs geo debate, I would say that even though God created Earth first doesn't mean He didn't also decide to have it revolve around the sun after creating it.  In other words, I don't think the order of creation necessarily proves one or the other.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #36 on: April 21, 2021, 12:57:57 PM »
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  • I've been wanting to add one comment to this thread since I first saw it:

    What does it MATTER what position a single, private, lay CathInfo member holds on a given topic?

    I really don't like threads which call out members by name. And I'll explain why:

    Can't we discuss ideas, and not worry so much about individuals and personalities? Isn't focusing on this or that individual -- especially non-clerics, who really don't have much influence and don't matter in the scheme of things -- the exact opposite of what we should be doing ideally?

    I'm the owner and sole moderator of this forum -- there might be a couple other forums "about as popular/large" in the English speaking world but there are none larger. Nevertheless, I'd be the first to say that my opinion doesn't mean jack squat. As a lay nobody, I restrict myself to regurgitating CATHOLIC DOCTRINE and when I occasionally spout my opinion, I make it clear that it's my opinion and that everyone is free to agree or disagree.

    To be honest with you Matthew, I too couldn't believe it when I saw a thread with my CIF name on it. I feared some might take advantage and give me a hard time. As it turned out no one did and some found the subject matter interesting as it developed. I hold no grudge with Sean, but I am glad you pointed out that no members name should be the subject of a thread title.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #37 on: April 21, 2021, 01:25:11 PM »
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    Another consideration is relevancy.  Does it matter one way or another the way space works or the distant past of the earth?  In my opinion pretty much no, anything that is not working towards the salvation of souls is ancillary at best and totally irrelevant at another end of the spectrum.

    One final aspect of the question you asked Durango, is the part it plays in the very first dogma found in Ludwig OTT's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

    ‘God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things.’ (De fide.)

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen – His everlasting power also and divinity - being understood through the things that are made. And so they are without excuse, seeing that, although they knew God they did not glorify Him as God or give him thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds have been darkened.’---St Paul’s Letter to the Romans.

    Saint Thomas Aquinas explained and developed this dogma. He advised any search for God should begin with the things we can realise, the things that can be perceived by the senses, things all around us as we live out our lives. These are the first things we can know, because they exist; things like the universe, the Earth, sun, moon, stars, sky, clouds, oceans, mountains, landscapes, trees, flowers, fruits, animals, birds, fish, insects, minerals and fuels, but especially fellow human beings. To most, these are things taken for granted today, but for St Thomas they generated wonder. The first question he asked was ‘Where do all these different things get their existence from, what causes them all to be?’ Thus begins a journey in some cases from cause to cause until we reach a point where we can go back no further. It is then we have to acknowledge a Cause that did not receive its existence from outside itself otherwise all that is would never have come into being to be comprehensible to our minds and senses. St Thomas examined in detail what kind of being this original or supreme cause would have to be. The answer, of course, is an omnipotent Creator.

    Now Revelation and the senses show us God created the Universe to turn around our Earth at the centre. This showed mankind they are special because of it.

    As time went by, this geocentric doctrine was developed further to satisfy the insatiable curiosity of man and the infinite theology of God, a synthesis of thought found in the reasoning refined and articulated in a Christian way over the centuries by all the Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church, especially Dionysius the Areopagite (1st century AD), St Clement of Alexandria (150-215AD) - who held that the altar in the Jєωιѕн tabernacle was ‘a symbol of the Earth placed in the middle of the universe,’ - Peter Lombard (12th century), and then, ‘with great power and clearness,’ wrote Andrew White, ‘St Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), the sainted theologian, the glory of the mediaeval Church, the “Angelic Doctor,” brought the whole vast system, material and spiritual, into its relation to God and man,’ a composite of theology and metaphysics that resulted in ‘a sacred system of cosmology, one of the great treasures of the universal Church.’ In this way Saint Thomas brought about a universal change in emphasis. Up to his time philosophy had been the centre of knowledge since the great Greek thinkers, but with the application of Christian revelation and infused wisdom, Christian theology and metaphysics found its place in the intellectual world, with all the other humanities and disciplines, including ethics, logic, politics, and economics subservient to it. Thomism then, became the vehicle for a system of learning and education. Hence with the scholastics, the primacy of a teleological explanation for the existence of man, his nature, place, purpose and destiny was established more fully.    

    Dante Alighieri, famous for his The Divine Comedy, a poem divided into a journey of three parts of a geocentric world, Inferno (Hell), Purgatorio (Purgatory) and Paradiso (Heaven), reflects medieval Catholicism when the Catholic faith had reached it peak of blessed understanding.. Pope Benedict XV in his 1921 In Praeclara Summorum did praise Dante’s medieval geocentric Catholicism but questioned the integrity of its geocentrism if ‘the progress of science’ had shown us Dante’s old world order had been proven false by science.  
    Cardinal Bellarmine wrote his De Ascensione Mentis in Deum, The Mind’s Ascent to God (by the Ladder of Created Things). Published in 1614, Bellarmine devotes seven of his fifteen steps to ‘The Consideration of the Heavens, the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars.’


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #38 on: April 28, 2021, 09:42:55 PM »
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  • Would that the Jesuits had remained permanently suppressed.

    Chardin was one of the biggest enemies of the faith ever, and then you had the Jesuits promoting neo-Pelagianism and religious indifferentism.  Even Adam Weishaupt was Jesuit-trained.
    What an absurd idea. Any competent Church historian knows the FMason Pombal( as well as Jansenits) was behind the suppression of Jesuits-- of which the Pope regretted mucho fast. Pope Pius VI rescinded Dominicus upon his election.
    Weishaupt-- a marrano layman was discovered and expelled. As for Chardin-- there have been bad apples in the Church before. It doesn't follow to trash the entire order.
    It should be noted that Ladislaus has been reading way to much Mrs Martinez & is also among the libeler's of( as well as by implication Popes Pius IX, Leo XIII, St Pius X, Cards Del Val, De Lai etc) Card Rampolla. :cowboy:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #39 on: April 28, 2021, 10:55:33 PM »
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  • Ridiculous.  Jesuits should have been suppressed had they caused but 10% of the damage they actually did.  You need to study up a bit in all that the Jesuits “accomplished” throughout their history.  That first generation after St. Ignatius had some remarkable saints.  But it was downhill almost immediately after that.  Soon they asked to be dispensed from the Divine Office.  St. Pius V really disliked them.
    I am aware of only one thing the Jesuits asked( and received) a dispensation from-- the choral obligation so as to concentrate more time as missionaries. Pls give source for the idea that Jesuits asked for a dispensation from The Divine Office-- did they receive it? :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #40 on: April 30, 2021, 02:15:13 PM »
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  • The Forum is waiting for reply so far :sleep:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is Cassini a Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #41 on: May 02, 2021, 01:25:54 PM »
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  •  :sleep: :confused:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'