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Author Topic: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?  (Read 5157 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2019, 12:44:09 PM »
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    • One interesting observation Dr. White makes in the conference is that Dante placed both the usurers and the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in the same circle of hell (ie., the circle of the violent).

    An interesting pairing, no?

    The reason is because the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs do violence against nature by taking that which is meant to be fertile and making it barren, whereas the usurer does violence against nature by taking that which is meant to be barren and making it fertile.
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    Offline FeeneyFan

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #16 on: June 05, 2019, 02:05:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 05, 2019, 11:38:59 AM
    Even the moral implications here that seem to be taken for granted are probably wrong.

    Are you a formal or merely material participant in usury simply by investing your money in a mutual fund that sometimes buys bank stocks?

    You can probably find funds that do not hold bank funds (that are specialized in certain ways).

    Unless you are personally loaning out money to people and extracting interest, your participation in usury would only be material, and material participation can be justified morally under certain conditions.

    So, you absolutely need to speak with a priest here.

    Matthew, isn't this the same mentality that you've rebuked as the people who refuse to shop at certain retailers because they support immoral causes?

    Ladislaus would investing in stocks that are in some form of licit business but also have interest income be ok?  For example an oil company that makes most of its profit refining oil but also has some money in interest-bearing accounts?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #17 on: June 05, 2019, 02:35:30 PM »
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    • Usury is hard to define today as wrong unless it’s excessive because global inflation and the rise in prices makes it necessary to charge interest unless it’s a really short term loan.  Usury was wrong in former times because money held its value so a long term loan didn’t hurt the lender.  Today, $20 will buy 5 gallons of milk.  5 years ago, the same $20 would buy 7 gallons.  Due to the loss of money value, interest is necessary.  In my opinion, an example of usury today are credit card rates, such as 15% or higher.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #18 on: June 05, 2019, 03:03:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 05, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
    Usury is hard to define today as wrong unless it’s excessive because global inflation and the rise in prices makes it necessary to charge interest unless it’s a really short term loan.  Usury was wrong in former times because money held its value so a long term loan didn’t hurt the lender.  Today, $20 will buy 5 gallons of milk.  5 years ago, the same $20 would buy 7 gallons.  Due to the loss of money value, interest is necessary.  In my opinion, an example of usury today are credit card rates, such as 15% or higher.  

    Inflation is a consequence of usurious monetary policy (eg., our “fractional reserve” system), but neither it, nor the term of a loan, is the essence of the evil of usury which, as explained earlier, is evil because it does violence to nature (and therefore the author of nature), by making that which is intended to be barren fruitful.

    A loan of one penny for 1 day at 1% interest would still be considered usury, and evil for the aforementioned reason (though usury allows for parvity of matter).
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #19 on: June 05, 2019, 04:06:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 05, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
    Usury is hard to define today as wrong unless it’s excessive because global inflation and the rise in prices makes it necessary to charge interest unless it’s a really short term loan.  Usury was wrong in former times because money held its value so a long term loan didn’t hurt the lender.  Today, $20 will buy 5 gallons of milk.  5 years ago, the same $20 would buy 7 gallons.  Due to the loss of money value, interest is necessary.  In my opinion, an example of usury today are credit card rates, such as 15% or higher.  
    I tend to agree with you here. I think that the only way to get back to a sound system is to go back to the gold standard.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline FeeneyFan

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #20 on: June 05, 2019, 04:58:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 05, 2019, 10:59:39 AM
    Epic imprudence!!

    May I advise you to speak with a priest before squandering 40% of your savings based of armchair advice???

    Foolish!!
    I think I will speak to a priest first but I don’t know if that will change my mind.  I had been thinking of rolling over with brokerage IRA and choosing my own stocks.
    When looking for stocks that you would think would be ok I found that all or most have interest income listed on their income statements.  In your other post on this thread you say that one penny loaned at 1% is still evil.  So wouldn’t investing in a stock that makes some interest income be evil as well?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #21 on: June 05, 2019, 05:05:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: FeeneyFan on June 05, 2019, 02:05:46 PM
    Ladislaus would investing in stocks that are in some form of licit business but also have interest income be ok?  For example an oil company that makes most of its profit refining oil but also has some money in interest-bearing accounts?

    I would not have an issue with that, but I would check with a priest first.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #22 on: June 05, 2019, 05:09:15 PM »
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    • Usury in modern banking is a bit tricky.

    So, for instance, there's a cost to keep services running (customer service people, computer systems/IT, buildings, etc.) ... so it's a bit different than old Shylock handing you gold and demanding 50% back for doing nothing.  Also, the business incurs loss when people default on loans.  Businesses are allowed to pay their employees and make profit.  So they could either do that with a flat fee system or make it graduated in proportion to how much money one has on loan.  I believe that the graduate (aka interest) system is OK because the institution incurs increasing risk as the amount of money increases, so the risk is proportionate to the amount of money on loan.  So it's like saying insurance companies can charge more for people with health problems in the past or with a poor driving history.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #23 on: June 05, 2019, 06:55:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: FeeneyFan on June 05, 2019, 04:58:03 PM
    I think I will speak to a priest first but I don’t know if that will change my mind.  I had been thinking of rolling over with brokerage IRA and choosing my own stocks.
    Strongly consider taking more control of the 401k. Some businesses don't provide many options, so that might mean rolling it over to another company (eg Ameritrade) that will let you select the stocks and funds.

    If you take money out of that 401k today, you pay taxes and a penalty on it, and you can't just put it back the same. You're only 30, you have a lot to benefit from compounding returns. If you don't need the money for something else, you are probably better off keeping it in a tax-benefitted IRA.

    Yes, a market correction is due. My investment advisor (with a big investment company, and not a "prepper" by any standard) started saying so 3 years ago. We've now had 10 straight years of bull markets. How many 10-year bull markets have their been? One. This one.

    You can invest in stocks or funds that are likely to handle a downturn.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #24 on: June 05, 2019, 07:45:10 PM »
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    • When a business borrows money and pays interest on the loan, isn't that more a sharing of the profits of the business than usuary?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #25 on: June 05, 2019, 07:56:02 PM »
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    • What's really garbage is the Federal Reserve system, where banks borrow money at next-to-no interest from the Fed.  What are Fed notes backed by?  By the people.  In other words, they're borrowing money from us and then lending it back to us at interest.  At least the old-fashioned Jew usurer gave you his own gold (ill-gotten as it was).  Here the Jew borrows gold from you, then gives you the gold and demands it back with interest.  They're laughing all the way to ... well, to their perdition.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #26 on: June 06, 2019, 04:50:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 05, 2019, 07:56:02 PM
    They're laughing all the way to ... well, to their perdition.
    Yes. I think it would be interesting if Jews secretly had themselves baptized on their deathbeds so they would have a chance at salvation after spending their lives serving Satan. Like if that was common.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #27 on: June 06, 2019, 05:51:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: FeeneyFan on June 05, 2019, 04:58:03 PM
    I think I will speak to a priest first but I don’t know if that will change my mind.  I had been thinking of rolling over with brokerage IRA and choosing my own stocks.
    When looking for stocks that you would think would be ok I found that all or most have interest income listed on their income statements.  In your other post on this thread you say that one penny loaned at 1% is still evil.  So wouldn’t investing in a stock that makes some interest income be evil as well?
    I took the penalty and closed my 401K about 17 years ago. Dumb move. I don't know but I don't think they had online brokerages that handled IRAs or 401Ks at the time, but I wish someone at that time would have told me to roll it over into one of those. That would have most definitely been a very smart move.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #28 on: June 06, 2019, 09:31:00 AM »
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    • The thing is we are supposed to have properly formed consciences to act on them properly, you need to speak to a priest who is knowledgeable in financial matters. Avoid most younger priests (the SSPX in particular seems to ordain children with no real world experience in the US ever since +Williamson was moved from the seminary) they lack enough knowledge
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
    « Reply #29 on: June 06, 2019, 09:57:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: FeeneyFan on June 04, 2019, 09:59:44 PM
    I have a 401k that I had from an old job before I converted.  I want to rollover this money into investments that would align with the traditional Catholic faith.  Unfortunately the “Catholic” mutual funds like Ave Maria Mutual Funds have investments in bank stocks and/or bonds.

    I have found a few Moslem firms that offer “Shariah compliant funds” which avoid bank stocks and bonds.  However when reviewing the income statement of the companies they invest in they all have interest income listed albeit this is normally not an extremely significant amount.

    I really don’t want to have to take the penalty for withdrawing early I would prefer to be able to find an investment that is pleasing to God and not tainted with usurious income but this is proving extremely hard.  I have spent much time trying to figure out what to do and it bothers me very much.  If anyone could offer some advice it would be much appreciated.  Thank you.
    Do yourself a favor and define usurious income before you do anything.

    I've been a businessman for 45 years now, and banks are my least expensive source for money. If I partner up with someone I have to pay 50% and put up with them butting into my business, while banks charge me say 8% and leave me to run my business. I would not call that usury, and no one would call the partner taking 50% usury either, as it is normal.

    If banks did not loan out money for home purchases, practically no one would own a home. I would not call that usury.

    If someone borrows money from a bank to buy luxuries he can't afford, he is a fool, but the bank is no usurious, for their rates are very low.

    Credit card company loans are usurious, and anyone that uses credit cards to buy luxuries is a fool.
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