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Author Topic: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?  (Read 5251 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2019, 12:44:09 PM »
One interesting observation Dr. White makes in the conference is that Dante placed both the usurers and the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in the same circle of hell (ie., the circle of the violent).

An interesting pairing, no?

The reason is because the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs do violence against nature by taking that which is meant to be fertile and making it barren, whereas the usurer does violence against nature by taking that which is meant to be barren and making it fertile.
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Offline FeeneyFan

Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2019, 02:05:46 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 05, 2019, 11:38:59 AM
Even the moral implications here that seem to be taken for granted are probably wrong.

Are you a formal or merely material participant in usury simply by investing your money in a mutual fund that sometimes buys bank stocks?

You can probably find funds that do not hold bank funds (that are specialized in certain ways).

Unless you are personally loaning out money to people and extracting interest, your participation in usury would only be material, and material participation can be justified morally under certain conditions.

So, you absolutely need to speak with a priest here.

Matthew, isn't this the same mentality that you've rebuked as the people who refuse to shop at certain retailers because they support immoral causes?

Ladislaus would investing in stocks that are in some form of licit business but also have interest income be ok?  For example an oil company that makes most of its profit refining oil but also has some money in interest-bearing accounts?
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2019, 02:35:30 PM »
Usury is hard to define today as wrong unless it’s excessive because global inflation and the rise in prices makes it necessary to charge interest unless it’s a really short term loan.  Usury was wrong in former times because money held its value so a long term loan didn’t hurt the lender.  Today, $20 will buy 5 gallons of milk.  5 years ago, the same $20 would buy 7 gallons.  Due to the loss of money value, interest is necessary.  In my opinion, an example of usury today are credit card rates, such as 15% or higher.  
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2019, 03:03:05 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 05, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
Usury is hard to define today as wrong unless it’s excessive because global inflation and the rise in prices makes it necessary to charge interest unless it’s a really short term loan.  Usury was wrong in former times because money held its value so a long term loan didn’t hurt the lender.  Today, $20 will buy 5 gallons of milk.  5 years ago, the same $20 would buy 7 gallons.  Due to the loss of money value, interest is necessary.  In my opinion, an example of usury today are credit card rates, such as 15% or higher.  

Inflation is a consequence of usurious monetary policy (eg., our “fractional reserve” system), but neither it, nor the term of a loan, is the essence of the evil of usury which, as explained earlier, is evil because it does violence to nature (and therefore the author of nature), by making that which is intended to be barren fruitful.

A loan of one penny for 1 day at 1% interest would still be considered usury, and evil for the aforementioned reason (though usury allows for parvity of matter).
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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Investing for retirement while avoiding usury?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2019, 04:06:32 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 05, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
Usury is hard to define today as wrong unless it’s excessive because global inflation and the rise in prices makes it necessary to charge interest unless it’s a really short term loan.  Usury was wrong in former times because money held its value so a long term loan didn’t hurt the lender.  Today, $20 will buy 5 gallons of milk.  5 years ago, the same $20 would buy 7 gallons.  Due to the loss of money value, interest is necessary.  In my opinion, an example of usury today are credit card rates, such as 15% or higher.  
I tend to agree with you here. I think that the only way to get back to a sound system is to go back to the gold standard.
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