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Author Topic: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?  (Read 11436 times)

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Offline Lenten

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Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2024, 08:37:27 AM »
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  • OP:  Does the family member even believe in God?
    I am not sure if she does now, but the last thing that was holding her back from deciding to socially transition (over a year ago) by cutting her hair short and going by he/him, seemed to be that she felt being trans is a sin, but was told by someone that it was not a sin, saying that there was a gαy person who wrote a book where he says that he decided being gαy was not a sin because if he was gαy, it must mean that God must have made him that way, and willed him to be gαy basically. 

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #16 on: March 01, 2024, 09:17:43 AM »
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  • So many false teachers and books thanks to satan. 

    Maybe she should read the Bible.  Genesis is God made male and the He made female. 
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #17 on: March 01, 2024, 02:23:16 PM »
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  • I am not sure if she does now, but the last thing that was holding her back from deciding to socially transition (over a year ago) by cutting her hair short and going by he/him, seemed to be that she felt being trans is a sin, but was told by someone that it was not a sin, saying that there was a gαy person who wrote a book where he says that he decided being gαy was not a sin because if he was gαy, it must mean that God must have made him that way, and willed him to be gαy basically.
    Not surprising.  Who does she think chose the sex chromosome pair at the time of her conception?  This does not change; therefore, God is very clear on what He wills: two distinct genders, not thousands.  He is also very clear on which gender a particular person will be. He wills her to be a woman.  She goes against His Will; therefore, yes, she is sinning and sinning gravely.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #18 on: March 01, 2024, 03:33:57 PM »
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  • I am not sure if she does now, but the last thing that was holding her back from deciding to socially transition (over a year ago) by cutting her hair short and going by he/him, seemed to be that she felt being trans is a sin, but was told by someone that it was not a sin, saying that there was a gαy person who wrote a book where he says that he decided being gαy was not a sin because if he was gαy, it must mean that God must have made him that way, and willed him to be gαy basically.
    Some people are seriously delusional. The temptations of sin must be resisted.
    Quote
     10 For wisdom came forth from God: for praise shall be with the wisdom of God, and shall abound in a faithful mouth, and the sovereign Lord will give praise unto it.
     
    11 Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not thou the things that he hateth. 12 Say not: He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of wicked men. 13 The Lord hateth all abomination of error, and they that fear him shall not love it. 14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts.
    16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.

    21 He hath commanded no man to do wickedly, and he hath given no man license to sin: 22 For he desireth not a multitude of faithless and unprofitable children.


    Offline Univocity

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #19 on: March 01, 2024, 05:47:28 PM »
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  • The following reflections might prove useful.

    Ask her what her goal is.  Presumably it is to heal an incongruity between her self perception/feelings/desires to be a man and her physical body which is that of a woman.  Now she may frame it differently than this but i think it's important to see it in these terms.  There is a perceived misalignment that is disturbing her.

    She has 2 options.  Option one is altering her body in hopes to conform it to her self-perception: to change her woman's body into that of a man.  After taking testosterone for some years, her voice will drop and she will have facial hair as well as masculine musculature.  She might think this is all she needs to align her body with her self-perception.  But now she will agonize over her breasts and "need" to have them surgically removed.  This won't solve it either, because now the focus will move to reproductive organs.  If she chooses to have a pseudo-male anatomy constructed, assuming she survives the surgery, she will have severe health problems in exchange for a patchwork result that will not trick her mind into thinking it is a male anatomy.  Having completed all the available procedures, her "dysphoria" will now center on other things: she will agonize over the fact that her hips are wider than her shoulders;her hands and feet are far too small to be a man's; her voice, while deeper, is tinny and feminine.  She cannot impregnate.  None of these things can ever be changed. In short, as the goal post moves, she will always be approaching a male body but can never possibly arrive at the finish line.  She will now have spent many thousands of dollars;lost many friends and family members; had difficulties in employment, become permanently dependent on pharmaceuticals; incurred many serious health problems such as osteoporosis, cancer, surgical infection, and more... all of this and yet she will not only have failed to align her body with her self-perception, but she will also not have statistically reduced the likelihood of taking her own life.  In other words she will feel just as dysphoric with the additional pain of having failed at something for which she sacrificed all that she loves. 

    The second option is to alter her self perception to conform with her female body.  This path is more difficult as far as the act of the will is concerned and in the moment it is more painful to the emotions.  However, it does not cost thousands of dollars; it does not destroy her health; it does not alienate her from friends, family and society; it does not leaver her dependent upon pharmaceuticals, and most importantly to her, IT IS ATTAINABLE.  the mind/feelings/self perception is malleable and can be truly transformed. The body cannot. If she chooses this path, not only will she have a goal which can be reached and thus the hope of truly removing this "dysphoria" without destroying herself, but she will end up with a fully functioning anatomy of the sex which her mind (at that point) accepts. In the first scenario, even if she achieves the coveted results promoted by the doctors, all she has is a sterile, weak facsimile of a male body propped up by a constant stream of exogenous chemicals.  In this second scenario she has actually been HEALED, and thus can perform all the functions of a member of her sex.

    If she takes the time to seriously consider this it may help. Since you've already spoken with her at length, I recommend writing this out in a formal letter, from the heart. It may hit her differently. Pray and fast for her. Offer Masses. There is hope for everyone. Be assured of my prayers and that she is included in my intentions for my little Lenten observances. God bless you.


    Offline Univocity

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #20 on: March 01, 2024, 05:54:58 PM »
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  • Concerning the aspect of sin, I think the following reflections might prove useful.

    Regardless of whether nature or nurture led her to this place (I believe nurture,) there is an interesting parallel in alcoholism.  Some people have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism (or perhaps more generically to drinking in general.)  Look at the Irish or American Indians for example.  God made them with that inclination.  However it does not justify them in getting drunk.  Similarly for the man with perverse attraction or the woman who thinks she is a man: regardless of the source of the desire, acting on it is wrong.  God gives crosses to many people even at birth (we mostly think of physical crosses but the seeds of moral crosses as well.)  It is up to us whether we use this as an occasion to grow in virtue or as an excuse for vice.  I'm not suggesting she was born with that inclination, however she might believe that and the above reasoning would hold either way.  And it is in my opinion quite likely that many with these problems (at least in normal times when transgenderism isn't a fad) may have some sort of tendency toward disordered self perception at birth.  Sodomites for instance may be born with a higher sɛҳuąƖ drive, and then circuмstances turn that into perversion since they are more susceptible than others.  Hope this helps.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #21 on: March 02, 2024, 01:10:19 PM »
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  • Back when I worked in bank, we were warned about counterfeit money. We asked to see some and were told "just study the REAL thing."

    In regard to this confused young person, it is best to tell her the truth.
    God created male and female.

    The family, consisting of a father, mother and their children is the basic unit of society.

    God created the Holy Sacrament of Marriage in order to recognize the lifelong committment of one man and one woman.

    It is optimal for society that as many children as possible are born into a committed marrige relationship between one man and one woman.

    The role of the man is to protect and provide.
    The role of the woman is to nurture and socialize the children.
    Both parents have the responsibiity to teach their children the truths of the Faith.

    The fact is that a man who cuts off his penis will never be able to have a functioning vagina and will never be able to experience natural sɛҳuąƖ intercourse.
    The fact is that a woman who cuts off her breasts will never be able to have a functioning penis and will never be able to experience natural sɛҳuąƖ intercourse.

    The enemies of God lie.

    God's ways are right.


    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #22 on: March 03, 2024, 05:24:05 PM »
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  • I've tried "it's making them rich" argument but it didn't work.
    I've shown the above detrans story and other detrans stories too but it didn't work.
    I think it's because she just is too much influenced by her real life trans friends and trans youtubers and only listens to what they have to say.

    If anybody here could keep her in your prayers, or trans people in general in your prayers for their conversion, I would appreciate it.

    How about telling her that she's willfully choosing her own self-destruction. Compare it to so-called Medically Assisted Aid in Dying, also known as euthanasia, also known as offing the inconvenient.

    Used to be that young adults would cut themselves and the families, seeing the scars and open gashes, would rush them to the psych ward. Now cutting is another form of self-expression detoured off into trans BS ideology. It's a cult. One of the symptoms of cult behavior is social contagion.

    She may not be able to see that until she experiences a real scare of some sort. She needs to believe that evil exists, that it's targeting her vulnerability, and that people who do care about her (like you) are not the evil ones, no matter how much the dark side tries to brainwash her into believing it.

    It's no mere coincidence that ѕυιcιdє rates are so high for people plagued by gender confusion. The ѕυιcιdє epidemic isn't because the world refuses their freedom to "transition". As for her "friends", as in "with friends like these, who needs enemies", give her this story to read

    Quote
    Michelle Carter Case: The 'Texting-ѕυιcιdє' Case Five Years After Sentencing
    Michelle Carter was convicted of involuntary manslaughter for encouraging the ѕυιcιdє of her then-boyfriend Conrad Roy III in 2014

    By Greg Hanlon
    Updated on August 3, 2022 09:28AM EDT
     
    On July 13, 2014, authorities found the body of Conrad Roy III, 18, in his pickup truck parked outside a Kmart in Fairhaven, Massachusetts. He had killed himself by breathing carbon monoxide from a portable generator that he had placed with him inside the cab of his truck.
    Although Roy had struggled with depression and been prescribed antidepressants, the investigation took a turn when police learned of a series of texts — eventually more than 1,000 — exchanged with Michelle Carter, then 17, in the week prior to his death. Carter, who described herself as Roy's girlfriend, appeared to be encouraging him to carry out his ѕυιcιdє, according to prosecutors, who later filed a charge of involuntary manslaughter against her.

    Prosecutor: Carter Was Playing a 'Sick Game of Life and Death'

    In her opening statement during Carter's 2017 trial, Assistant District Attorney Maryclare Flynn said Carter, who was 20 at the time of her trial, wanted sympathy and attention from other girls at school, yearning to be the "grieving girlfriend" who couldn't stop her boyfriend from committing ѕυιcιdє, WPRI reported.

    "The defendant needed something to get their attention," Flynn said. "She used Conrad as a pawn in her sick game of life and death."
    Flynn also alleged that Carter tried to pretend to the Roy family that she didn't know the manner and location of Roy's death – despite texts from her that allegedly indicated otherwise.

    "She never admitted to anyone in the Roy family that she had helped Conrad for weeks to devise a ѕυιcιdє plan, or that she was on the phone with Conrad and knew he committed ѕυιcιdє in the Kmart parking lot," Flynn said.

    Conrad Roy's Mother: 'I Thought He Was Doing Great'

    During Carter trial, Conrad's mother, Lynn, recalled their last day together on July 12, 2014, when she joined him and his sisters for a day at Horseneck Beach in Westport, Massachusetts.

    Conrad had attempted an overdose in 2012 after leaving a treatment program for his depression. But he'd just been accepted to Fitchburg State University and planned to study business after his recent high school graduation.

    "I thought he was a little depressed," she testified, but she added, "I thought he was doing great," MassLive.com reported.
    When he did not return home that night, she said she called police and later informed them about texts she received from Michelle Carter.

    Carter's Text to Friend: 'His Death Is My Fault'
    Texting ѕυιcιdє
    Pat Greenhouse/The Boston Globe via AP

    Carter's friend Samantha Boardman read aloud in court from texts Cater sent her that seemed to indicate she was remorseful.
    "Sam his death is my fault like [honestly] I could have stopped him I was on the phone with him and he got out of the car because it was working and he got scared and I [expletive] told him to get back in," Carter allegedly texted to Boardman, reported the Boston Herald.
    "I knew he would do it all over the next day and I couldn't have him live the way he was living anymore," Carter allegedly wrote to Boardman. "I couldn't do it. I wouldn't let him."

    "I should have did more and it's all my fault because I could of stopped him but I [expletive] didn't," Carter allegedly texted to Boardman on Sept. 15, 2014, reported MassLive.com.

    'I Heard Him Die,' Carter Texted

    Prosecutors also called two friends of Carter's who received texts from her about Roy's ѕυιcιdє.
    "I was talking to him on the phone when he killed himself," Carter allegedly texted Olivia Mosolgo, who played on a softball team with Carter. "Liv, I heard him die. I just wish I got him more help."
    To another friend, Alexandra Ethier, whom Carter knew from working at a summer camp, Carter allegedly texted: "Yeah and I was on the phone talking to him when he killed himself. I'm heard him dying."

    Carter's Lawyer: 'She Tried to Talk Him Out of It'

    Before the case went to trial, Carter's defense attorney Joseph P. Cataldo argued that the texts are protected speech and they "did not contain anything remotely resembling a threat" worthy of a criminal charge, according to his court filing. He said Roy's decision to kill himself was Roy's alone.

    Cataldo told PEOPLE: "A lot of what has been reported thus far is that Michelle Carter always wanted to endorse Conrad Roy's plan to kill himself. But it will be abundantly clear that for weeks prior to agreeing to his plan, she tried to talk him out of it, and he tried to get her to commit ѕυιcιdє with him."

    "We're dealing with a 17-year-old impressionable female who was not equipped to deal with Conrad Roy's ѕυιcιdє plans," Cataldo said, "and sadly he carried through on his plan."

    Psychiatrist: Meds Impaired Carter's Judgment

    During Carter's trial, Dr. Peter Breggin spoke about the effects of Celexa, a medication that treats depression and anxiety, which Carter was prescribed not long before Roy's death.

    According to the Boston Globe, the psychiatrist said Celexa can inhibit impulse control. Breggin added that drugs like Celexa "disrupt the frontal lobe function" and that "the young brain is more susceptible to harm" from such drugs.

    Carter Sent Roy Dozens of Texts After His Death
    The Boston Globe reported that Carter sent more than 80 text messages to Roy's phone after his death. In one, she apologized for not doing enough to stop him from taking his own life. She also expressed her enduring love for him, the paper reports.
    "You probably thought I was okay with it and You talked about being in heaven and being my angel and at the time I went along with it because i knew you weren't gonna do anything," she wrote.
    "But you [expletive] did it and I'm so sorry I didn't save you," Carter wrote.

    June 17, 2017: Carter Convicted of Involuntary Manslaughter

    On June 17, 2017, Carter was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in Roy's death. She cried at the defense table as Judge Lawrence Moniz addressed her.

    "Carter's actions and also her failure to act where she had a self-created duty to Mr. Roy, since she had put him in that toxic environment, constituted each and all wanton and reckless conduct," Moniz said.

    "She [instructed] Mr. Roy to get back into the truck, well-knowing of all of the feelings that he [had] exchanged with her: his ambiguities, his fears, his concerns," Moniz added.

    Judge Convicted Carter Because of Roy's Final Moments

    In handing down his guilty verdict, Moniz focused on what Carter did right before Roy killed himself, when he called her from outside his pickup truck as he wavered about what to do.

    She told him to get back into his vehicle — "which she has reason to know is or is becoming a toxic environment inconsistent with human life," Moniz said, narrating her actions in the present tense.

    "She did nothing. She did not call the police or Mr. Roy's family," he said of Carter. "Finally, she did not issue a simple additional instruction [to Roy]: 'Get out of the truck.' "

    Carter Gets 15 Months in Jail, Started Sentence in Feb. 2019.

    Moniz sentenced Carter to two-and-a-half years, but all but 15 months of that sentence was suspended. However, Moniz agreed to stay her jail sentence until her appeal was resolved.

    In February, after her appeal was rejected, Carter began serving her sentence.

    Roy's Father: 'How Could Michelle Carter Behave So Viscously?'

    During sentencing, members of Roy's family addressed the court. Roy's father called the late teen his best friend, saying, "Michelle Carter exploited my son's weaknesses and used him as a pawn."

    "How could Michelle Carter behave so viciously and encourage my son to end his life? Where was her humanity?" he added.
    In a statement read in court prior to sentencing, Roy's mother, Lynn Roy wrote, "There is not one day that I do not mourn the loss of my beloved son."

    Carter's Appeal: Texts Were 'Cherry-Picked'

    In her appeal filed in 2018, Carter's attorneys argued that the texts prosecutors presented were "cherry-picked" to make her look bad.
    The appeal reiterated an argument the defense had previously made: that Carter's text showing compassion for Roy were never presented, including one in which she encouraged him to get professional help.

    Texts Were Protected Free Speech, Appeal Argued

    Carter's appeal stated that her "words encouraging Roy's ѕυιcιdє, however distasteful to this Court, were protected speech."
    The appeal reignited the debate about whether someone could legally be found guilty of a crime if they weren't on the scene.
    The appeal argued that if Carter's conviction was allowed to stand, "Massachusetts would be the only state to uphold an involuntary manslaughter conviction where an absent defendant, with words alone, encouraged another person to commit ѕυιcιdє," her attorneys wrote.

    After the appeal was rejected, Carter was ordered to begin serving her sentence in February 2019.

    Carter Released Early After Serving 11 Months in Jail

    In January 2020, Carter was released from the Bristol County House of Corrections after serving 11 months of her 15-month sentence. Her stay was shortened due to "good time" credit, which shaves time off an inmate's sentence based on exemplary behavior shown by attending programs and classes as well as working within the jail.

    Days before her release, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear Carter's appeal, after the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court had previously upheld her conviction. She was to remain on probation until August 2022.

    Conrad's Mother Launches Push to Make ѕυιcιdє Coercion a Crime

    Conrad's mother — who remarried in 2020 to become Lynn St. Denis — began working with Massachusetts state lawmakers in 2019 to make ѕυιcιdє coercion a crime punishable by up to five years in prison. If passed, Massachusetts would become the 43rd state with such a law. The bill, bearing the title Conrad's Law, stalled during the COVID pandemic but was back before lawmakers in early 2022.

    The Controversial Case Lives On in Popular Media

    After the trial of Michelle Carter, the story was revisited several times in popular media. In 2018 Lifetime released the scripted telefilm Conrad & Michelle: If Words Could Kill. In 2019 HBO aired a two-part docuмentary I Love You, Now Die: The Commonwealth vs. Michelle Carter. In 2022 Hulu released the TV limited series The Girl from Plainville, starring Elle Fanning in the title role as Carter.

    Carter has not spoken about the case since her release. "There will come a time for Michelle to speak publicly but now is not that time," her attorney Joseph P. Cataldo told PEOPLE in March 2022.

    Conrad Roy's Parents Speaks Out

    Eight year's after their son's ѕυιcιdє, Conrad Roy's parents spoke to PEOPLE.

    During the interview, Roy's mother, Lynn Roy, shared her thoughts on The Girl From Plainville series. Lynn hadn't seen the series but was concerned about its focus on Michelle over her son and worries "there may be an attempt to defend some of her needless and evil actions."
    However, she did hope that the new attention on the case would help push forward Conrad's Law.

    "I don't want another family to deal with what I had to deal with," Lynn told PEOPLE.

    If you or someone you know is considering ѕυιcιdє, please contact the 988 ѕυιcιdє and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988, text "STRENGTH" to the Crisis Text Line at 741741 or go to 988lifeline.org.


    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline Lenten

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #23 on: March 04, 2024, 08:21:28 AM »
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  • Thank you for your insight, Soubirous. 


    Offline Lenten

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #24 on: March 04, 2024, 08:23:53 AM »
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  • Another question I had: What could I say about listening to friends? 

    I think her affection to trans friends would prevent her from thinking of being trans as a sin. Also their words would have a lot of weight with her just because they are her friends, even if weak on logic. 


    Offline Lenten

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #25 on: March 05, 2024, 08:26:38 AM »
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  • Are there any trad discord servers you could recommend where any trans with doubts about being trans but held back by many trans-affirming friends, but open to the Catholic faith, might want to check out where they could make new friends? 


    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: How would you answer these objections of a Trans from Trad perspective?
    « Reply #26 on: March 05, 2024, 08:49:37 AM »
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  • Another question I had: What could I say about listening to friends?

    I think her affection to trans friends would prevent her from thinking of being trans as a sin. Also their words would have a lot of weight with her just because they are her friends, even if weak on logic.

    Like I said, with friends like these, who needs enemies. Misery loves company. Sin loves company. They're dragging her down to their level, and their demons are demanding that they not let her get away. There's an agenda of "us vs. them" gaslighting and shaming going on, alternating with a reward tactic called "love bombing" when she takes their side. Thus, it becomes a compulsion for her to resist, and even fight against, genuine goodwill from people who do see the mistake she's making.

    Logic may or may not work. She needs to open her own eyes to what is going on. Sometimes that means worse difficulties before she's ready to climb out of it. Pray for her, and for her family, and for the sorry souls who have her in their grip.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus