Author Topic: Immodesty at Novus Ordo Mass (Read 5214 times)

MrsZ · « **on:** May 09, 2011, 01:50:39 PM »

First, I realize that I'm not likely to get much sympathy here considering that we're talking about a modern Novus Ordo Mass. We are stuck here and have no options FYI.

But this is really getting to me. Most of the parishioners are covered ... but many of them are in skintight clothing either out of: ignorance, being fat or trying to be "fashionable/ hot" (i.e., still ignorant).

Several of the younger girls participate as lectors ... almost without fail, they approach the altar in either short skirts or skin tight pants. They idiotically show their "respect" to Our Lord at the Altar, by bending over at the waist to bow. (In fact all lectors EMEs do that, young/old, male/female. So the parishioners get the full effect of having that particular part of one's body outlined and emphasized as they take this posture.

No. I'm not shocked anymore. I'm just annoyed and disgusted. I strongly believe that my H and son should be able to attend Mass without having to practice custody of the eyes ... however, what can I do about this?

Our priest just averts his own eyes and looks heavenward...maybe he's saying a prayer for deliverance from the blindness of those whom he serves. But I feel he's in a bind because in our current cultural climate two things exist: one, if a man mentions that a woman is dressing immodestly, he is a creep and a pervert, and two, everyone will likely fret over the potential "loss" of the young people (women) if they are told they need to follow a dress code at church.

I'm thinking about writing a little note to father ... but he's also not really in charge of anything ...older women run the show here .. so should I send a note to one of them with the quote from Titus 2 ? Or should I bother?

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #1 on:** May 09, 2011, 02:42:24 PM »

Mrs. Z,

Oh, how I sympathize with you. All doctrinal arguments regarding the NO aside, you have hit on a huge reason why assisting at most NO Masses can be an occassion of sin anyway. Not only of lust but of wrath.

The same thing goes for any Mass. If you had a TLM where the congregation consistently dresses immodestly and nothing is done about it, it would be an occasion of sin also in my opinion.

Then, besides the immodesty, you have congregants who simply dress inappropriately for Sunday Mass hanging out in shorts, cut offs, bare shoulders, flip-flops, band t-shirts, etc. as if they were going to a Barbeque instead of Calvary.

Again, if this were the standard practice at one's weekly TLM, I don't think any of us would recommend assisting.

Ironically one of the foremost things I found refreshing about the TLM at the Society was that this was not a problem. I was simply shocked my first time at a Society Mass that the people there actually dressed like Catholics going to Mass! I almost cried out of grattitude. SO SIMPLE a thing and I could not find it ANYWHERE in my entire diocese (including the indult church) nor at hardly any NO Masses in my life (with a few exceptions). It is truly as if the priests & bishops DO NOT CARE. Every excuse in the book is made for them, but in the end actions speak louder than words. They do zip. And when they do try, like posting dress guidelines on the door of the church) they are ignored with impunity and the pastor does nothing to back them up.

Maddening. Absolutely maddening. All arguments about the substance of the NO aside, this one factor, the dress and demeanor of the faithful and the inaction of the priests, ALONE, in my opinion, is enough to make one flee the NO milieu for fear of losing one's faith. I could be wrong, but that's how I feel.

TKGS · « **Reply #2 on:** May 09, 2011, 02:57:12 PM »

Quote from: MrsZ

First, I realize that I'm not likely to get much sympathy here considering that we're talking about a modern Novus Ordo Mass. We are stuck here and have no options FYI.

This is not accurate. You DO have options.

From the SSPX website about attending the Novus Ordo when there's "no other options":

Quote

However, regardless of the gravity of the sacrilege, the New Mass still remains a sacrilege, and it is still in itself sinful. Furthermore, it is never permitted to knowingly and willingly participate in an evil or sinful thing, even if it is only venially sinful. For the end does not justify the means. Consequently, although it is a good thing to want to assist at Mass and satisfy one’s Sunday obligation, it is never permitted to use a sinful means to do this. To assist at the New Mass, for a person who is aware of the objective sacrilege involved, is consequently at least a venial sin. It is opportunism. Consequently, it is not permissible for a traditional Catholic, who understands that the New Mass is insulting to Our Divine Savior, to assist at the New Mass, and this even if there is no danger of scandal to others or of the perversion of one’s own Faith (as in an older person, for example), and even if it is the only Mass available. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

Emphasis added.

Source: http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__traditional.htm#attendnovusordo

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #3 on:** May 09, 2011, 03:14:42 PM »

I still sympathize with Mrs. Z. When one has no TLM anywhere around, one begins to seriously miss receiving Holy Communion and also some semblance of Catholic life. Also does one just not go to confession rather than confess to an NO priest?

In effect one in that situation becomes an isolated home aloner through no fault of their own. That said I see what you are saying TKGS. It sounds like a crummy no-win situation.

Are there no TLM's within drivng distance of you, Mrs. Z?

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #4 on:** May 09, 2011, 03:27:38 PM »

The true definition of a home-aloner is someone who stays home from Mass on Sundays because they think the Faith can be kept at home and that one does not need the Mass (Traditional Latin Mass). You aren't a home-aloner if you refuse to attend the Novus Ordo.

I don't go to Confession in my area simply because there are no Traditional priests where I live, not unless I were to travel 2+ hours. Confession at a NO parish is more of just a casual meeting, there's nothing serious about it really. It reminds me of this one SSPX priest who walked into an NO parish one day and the parish priest was sitting in the pews with his feet propped up. The Traditional priest (he may not have been a priest at the time) said "I'd like to go to Confession". The NO priest turns around and asks him why. The Traditional priest responds 'I have some sins I'd like to confess". The NO priest then gets up and says "Alright, if you really want to know that Jesus still loves you". The Confessional had been used as a broom closet for a number of years (this is a true story, by the way).

Anyway, as far as Confession, in such a situation as this you're better off just privately confessing your sins to God. You can say both the Confetior (it's not just for the TLM, it can be said at home) and Act of Contrition at night. I, too, sympathize with you Mrs. Z. It sounds like you're in a similar situation that I am in.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #5 on:** May 09, 2011, 03:54:06 PM »

SS,

Even the DIMONDS, of all people, recognize the validity of the NO form of confession.

If it is impossible to get to a Traditional priest, I would confess to the most conservative NO priest you can find if you are aware of serious sin on your soul or are even in doubt. Better safe than sorry...

MrsZ · « **Reply #6 on:** May 09, 2011, 04:52:03 PM »

No, there are no traditional masses for hundreds of miles north or south of us. We do not believe that it is an option to just stop attending Mass. Our belief is that for whatever reason the Lord allowed this crisis to hit the Church and that He wouldn't allow a situation to occur where we were obliged to abstain from the Sacraments or the Mass entirely ... or that it would be more clear: such as not having any Mass anywhere at all. Frankly, I'd almost prefer that at times .. at least it wouldn't be left up to each person to discern the right thing to do here.

I realize this is a pro SSPX forum and I do not wish to debate that with anyone. We just don't feel safe operating outside of our diocese and outside the hierarchy of the Church. We do recognize the many errors of the Church in the last 4 decades, but have not come to the conclusion that those errors indicate a complete loss of the Magisterium or the hierarchal structure that is there for the safeguarding of the Faith.

The positive aspect of this particular parish, is that within the limitations of what goes on for a N.O. Mass, our priest is fairly devout and the Mass itself is mostly carried out in a serious manner.

But we have also have the earmarks of the modern Mass: the altar girls, all the laypeople on the altar, mostly women, and the immodest or overly casual dress. I just wish there was some way of at least communicating the idea that the women of the parish can and should say something to assist these young women in doing the right thing. I wish they understood that they will have to answer for what they've done or failed to do in this regard.

For that matter, I, too am going to have to answer for this as well. :sad:

herbert · « **Reply #7 on:** May 09, 2011, 05:26:27 PM »

if they showed up at padre pio church wearing provocative clothing he would have beat them up

is there anything wrong with a priest beating up people who show up in skanky/innapropriate clothing?

TKGS · « **Reply #8 on:** May 09, 2011, 05:56:08 PM »

I recommend you get a subscription to The Four Marks. Perhaps you'll get a better understanding of the hierarchy of the Church.

I understand that there is a crisis in the Church today. I am wondering why you think that God will ensure that you, personally, will always be able to attend Mass when, through history, there have countless numbers of Catholics deprived of the Mass (e.g., the English in the time of Elizabeth I, the Japanese after all priests were expelled from Japan by the Japanese Emporer, Catholics throughout the Roman Empire during the Arian Crisis, etc.) for long periods of time, even for generations.

I would like to know what city you live near, because there may be many viable options for you that you are just unaware of. The Conciliar church does wonders in keeping its captives from knowing the Truth about the Church.

The website where you can find subscription information for The Four Marks: http://www.thefourmarks.com/

TKGS · « **Reply #9 on:** May 09, 2011, 06:03:02 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Even the DIMONDS, of all people, recognize the validity of the NO form of confession.

Maybe they should put themselves up for their "Heresy of the Week" and... :scared2:...excommunicate themselves!!

:roll-laugh2: :dancing-banana:

:roll-laugh1:

LordPhan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2011, 08:51:36 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

The true definition of a home-aloner is someone who stays home from Mass on Sundays because they think the Faith can be kept at home and that one does not need the Mass (Traditional Latin Mass). You aren't a home-aloner if you refuse to attend the Novus Ordo.

I don't go to Confession in my area simply because there are no Traditional priests where I live, not unless I were to travel 2+ hours. Confession at a NO parish is more of just a casual meeting, there's nothing serious about it really. It reminds me of this one SSPX priest who walked into an NO parish one day and the parish priest was sitting in the pews with his feet propped up. The Traditional priest (he may not have been a priest at the time) said "I'd like to go to Confession". The NO priest turns around and asks him why. The Traditional priest responds 'I have some sins I'd like to confess". The NO priest then gets up and says "Alright, if you really want to know that Jesus still loves you". The Confessional had been used as a broom closet for a number of years (this is a true story, by the way).

Anyway, as far as Confession, in such a situation as this you're better off just privately confessing your sins to God. You can say both the Confetior (it's not just for the TLM, it can be said at home) and Act of Contrition at night. I, too, sympathize with you Mrs. Z. It sounds like you're in a similar situation that I am in.

From my understanding this post is correct, out of neccessity you can confess to God directly but once you find a true mass and are able to confess to a legitamate priest you must do it.

I believe it works just like general absolutions in war, a general absolution is not licit under normal circuмstances, but under extrordinary circuмstaces it can be in say just before a battle the priest conditionally absolves everyone of sins. If they die it is valid, if they live they still have to confess.

I am not a Priest, I believe that what I have written is truthful but I suggest making sure.

I also do not know if your mass is valid or not. I believe all the Novus Ordo masses around me are invalid. That is my belief. I drive 30 min to the SSPX chapel in the next city over.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #11 on:** May 09, 2011, 08:58:47 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

SS,

Even the DIMONDS, of all people, recognize the validity of the NO form of confession.

If it is impossible to get to a Traditional priest, I would confess to the most conservative NO priest you can find if you are aware of serious sin on your soul or are even in doubt. Better safe than sorry...

And I care what the heretical Dimonds think because...?

Confessing to a conservative NO priest doesn't change the fact that the NO form of Confession isn't the way I want my sins confessed. I'm better off doing what I am now.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #12 on:** May 09, 2011, 09:01:17 PM »

Mrs Z, if you have access to an SSPX chapel, I suggest you attend. Attending an SSPX Mass does not "place you outside the Church". For the record, Benedict lifted their excommunications and said it was ok to attend their Masses.

Sigismund · « **Reply #13 on:** May 09, 2011, 09:41:49 PM »

Please don't stop going to Mass. The SSPX is not the Church, and the fact that they seem to think they can absolve you of your Sunday Mass obligation sounds very like an exercise of jurisdiction, something they cannot claim, to have without schism. The theological opinion that a rite officially promulgated by the Church is and objective sacrilege, not matter how rubrically and reverently it is offered, is not a hook I would hang my soul on.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #14 on:** May 10, 2011, 09:16:32 AM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Confessing to a conservative NO priest doesn't change the fact that the NO form of Confession isn't the way I want my sins confessed. I'm better off doing what I am now.

Well, it's all about the way YOU want your sins confessed, isn't it? I wouldn't want that to be my only argument when Our Lord asks why I died with an unconfessed mortal sin on my soul.

"I knew I could have validly confessed to the NO priest Lord, but it's just not the way I want my sins confessed, so I didn't do it.

Good luck with that one!