Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell  (Read 5086 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Predestination

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Reputation: +13/-8
  • Gender: Male
If an unbaptised person commits only venjsl sins will they enjoy natural beatitude in limbo or burn in hell?
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. - Roman’s 9:16 Douay Rheims

Offline Marulus Fidelis

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 750
  • Reputation: +403/-122
  • Gender: Male
Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2024, 01:14:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • If an unbaptised person commits only venjsl sins will they enjoy natural beatitude in limbo or burn in hell?
    Neither. He will be brought into the Church by Divine Providence.


    Offline Predestination

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 61
    • Reputation: +13/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #2 on: September 18, 2024, 01:21:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Neither. He will be brought into the Church by Divine Providence.
    Let’s say he just committed 1 venial sin and immediately died, unable to sin any more
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. - Roman’s 9:16 Douay Rheims

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14924
    • Reputation: +6190/-917
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #3 on: September 18, 2024, 04:33:54 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • If an unbaptised person commits only venial sins will they enjoy natural beatitude in limbo or burn in hell?
    If that person dies unbaptized, he dies outside of the Church. Per Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino, it is dogma that all those who die outside the Catholic Church: "go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil, and his angels."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47385
    • Reputation: +28037/-5238
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #4 on: September 18, 2024, 05:29:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Apart from the fact that I believe God would provide the graces necessary for salvation to someone who could get by in life only committing venial sin ... per what St. Thomas wrote, that God would send an angel if necessary to someone who placed no obstacles to His grace ... hypothetically I hold that such a person as you describe would be in a state approximating the perfect natural happiness of Limbo.  I don't believe that Hell, Limbo, or Heaven are monolithic all-or-nothing states.  Just as there are degrees of happiness in Heaven, so there can be degrees of natural happiness in Limbo ... and degrees of suffering in Hell, in proportion to the state of each soul ... as one of the dogmatic EENS definitions indicates.  I believe that this is the main reason people push against EENS dogma, due to a monolithic view of Hell where a naturally virtuous Jєωιѕн grandmother who perhaps gave her life to save others gets thrown into the same boiling cauldron as Joe Stalin and suffers the same fate.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47385
    • Reputation: +28037/-5238
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #5 on: September 18, 2024, 05:33:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Neither. He will be brought into the Church by Divine Providence.

    Right.  I believe this as well, along the lines of what St. Thomas wrote ... but I did consider the matter from a hypothetical perspective.

    Offline Predestination

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 61
    • Reputation: +13/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #6 on: September 18, 2024, 06:11:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right.  I believe this as well, along the lines of what St. Thomas wrote ... but I did consider the matter from a hypothetical perspective.
    I meant for the question to be merely hypothetical 
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. - Roman’s 9:16 Douay Rheims

    Offline JCRev2033

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 18
    • Reputation: +5/-32
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #7 on: September 18, 2024, 07:39:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • Let us consult St. Thomas: St. Thomas Aquinas teaches in I-II, Q.89, A.6 that when a child reaches the age of reason, if he orders himself toward his last end as well as he can, he immediately attains sanctifying grace (which we would call baptism of desire), and if he does not, he sins mortally. His state of knowledge is not relevant, so the child is able to attain grace even if he is completely ignorant of the Church and Christ.

    "I answer that, It is impossible for venial sin to be in anyone with original sin alone, and without mortal sin. The reason for this is because before a man comes to the age of discretion, the lack of years hinders the use of reason and excuses him from mortal sin, wherefore, much more does it excuse him from venial sin, if he does anything which is such generically. But when he begins to have the use of reason, he is not entirely excused from the guilt of venial or mortal sin. Now the first thing that occurs to a man to think about then, is to deliberate about himself. And if he then direct himself to the due end, he will, by means of grace, receive the remission of original sin: whereas if he does not then direct himself to the due end, and as far as he is capable of discretion at that particular age, he will sin mortally, for through not doing that which is in his power to do. Accordingly thenceforward there cannot be venial sin in him without mortal, until afterwards all sin shall have been remitted to him through grace. " (I-II, Q.89, A.6) ...


    ... This comparison is very helpful when looking at the necessity of explicit faith for salvation. Obviously St. Thomas does not believe that it is necessary by an absolute necessity, both because men before Christ were saved without it, and also because men after Christ can be justified, and made fit for heaven without it. However, he seems to hold a necessity of infallibility, insofar as God intends that after the advent of Christ, every man who dies justified also dies with explicit knowledge of Christ." From: https://outsidethechurchnosalvation.blogspot.com/2009/06/st-thomas-aquinas-on-salvation-by.html


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47385
    • Reputation: +28037/-5238
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #8 on: September 18, 2024, 07:50:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Let us consult St. Thomas: St. Thomas Aquinas teaches in I-II, Q.89, A.6 that when a child reaches the age of reason, if he orders himself toward his last end as well as he can, he immediately attains sanctifying grace (which we would call baptism of desire), and if he does not, he sins mortally. His state of knowledge is not relevant, so the child is able to attain grace even if he is completely ignorant of the Church and Christ.
    ...
    ... This comparison is very helpful when looking at the necessity of explicit faith for salvation. Obviously St. Thomas does not believe that it is necessary by an absolute necessity, both because men before Christ were saved without it, and also because men after Christ can be justified, and made fit for heaven without it. However, he seems to hold a necessity of infallibility, insofar as God intends that after the advent of Christ, every man who dies justified also dies with explicit knowledge of Christ." From: https://outsidethechurchnosalvation.blogspot.com/2009/06/st-thomas-aquinas-on-salvation-by.html

    Complete hogwash.  That quote does not say what you claim.  What St. Thomas says is merely that since the soul is not in a state of sanctifying grace to begin with, there can be no venial sin.  He's considering the sin from the perspective of the soul's overall state vs. whether the sin itself is objectively grave matter ... i.e. from its formal vs. its material aspect.  What OP is asking has to do with the objective/material gravity of the sin being venial.  This does not mean that St. Thomas teaches Pelagian heresy, which you attribute to him, that he can somehow will himself ex opere operantis to a state of grace.  What it's saying here is that if the individual seeks his true end (i.e. God), that God will lead him, by the help of grace, ultimately to a remission of Original Sin.  This says absolutely nothing about at which point and with what conditions the individual can enter the state of sanctifying grace.  This is the same error that the heretics attribute falsely to Pope Pius IX.

    We have here yet another Pelagian heretic here attempting to slander the Doctors and Fathers with their own heresies.  It's amazing to me how many Pelagian heretics we have among so-called Trads.

    What the heck is this "necessity of infallibility" that you pulled from your posterior, a distinction which exists nowhere in the scholastic theologians.

    Offline JCRev2033

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 18
    • Reputation: +5/-32
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #9 on: September 18, 2024, 07:56:05 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!3
  • Baptism of desire is not Pelagian heresy, you blundering buffoon. Pope St. Pius X also taught souls can be justified by acts of perfect love of God or contrition. Guess he's a "Pelagian heretic" to you too, eh, you dimondite tool? Only idiots believe themselves or those like you in prefernce to popes, saints and doctors of the Church. St. Alphonsus also taught the same. Read the quote from St. Thomas properly, you probly didnt even know of it till i quoted it. Read it properly, it says exactly what the link says it does. btw, before Christ came, baptism of desire was the universal means of justification for all, both jews and gentiles, as anyone who has faith and reflected on it for 2 mins would know. since your only agenda is to promote trash you read from the dimonds who brainwashed you, guess that excludes you. Real catholics will stand with and trust those like St. Thomas, St. Pius X and St. Alphonsus,notyou.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47385
    • Reputation: +28037/-5238
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #10 on: September 18, 2024, 08:00:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Baptism of desire is not Pelagian heresy, you blundering buffoon.

    You're not even talking about Baptism of Desire proper here, you heretical fool.  This doesn't even get to that point in the discussion.  You're claiming that an individual can put himself into a state of grace and remission of Original Sin simply by seeking his true end.  That is nothing short of Pelagian heresy.

    Here we have another proof that 90% of those who claim to be promoting "Baptism of Desire" are actually Pelagian heretics using the term "Baptism of Desire" for cover.  You've appropriated the term "Baptism of Desire" to excuse and justify your Pelagian heresy.  And then you slander those who held a Catholic view of BoD with your heretical interpretation thereof, simply by your equivocal use of the term.


    Offline JCRev2033

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 18
    • Reputation: +5/-32
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #11 on: September 18, 2024, 08:02:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • The great thomist Fr. Garrigou Lagrange, highly praised by archbishop lefebvre, explained in life everlasting: "“Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution. If the question is of the entire human race, the answer must remain uncertain, for the reasons given above. But even if, absolutely, the number of the elect is less great, the glory of God’s government cannot suffer. Quality prevails over quantity. One elect soul is a spiritual universe; further, no evil happens that is not permitted for a higher good. Further, among non-Christians (Jews, Mohammedans, pagans) there are souls which are elect. Jews and Mohammedans not only admit monotheism, but retain fragments of primitive revelation and of Mosaic revelation. They believe in a God who is a supernatural rewarder, and can thus, with the aid of grace, make an act of contrition. And even to pagans, who live in invincible, involuntary ignorance of the true religion, and who still attempt to observe the natural law, supernatural aids are offered, by means known to God.”

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47385
    • Reputation: +28037/-5238
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #12 on: September 18, 2024, 08:08:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your last quote from Garrigou Lagrange shows once again that you have absolutely no earthly clue what the term "Baptism of Desire" even means.  Protestants and schismatics are (quite often) validly baptized, so the term doesn't even apply to them.  Baptism of Desire means nothing more than supplying for certain effects of the Sacrament of Baptism by intending to receive it.  It has nothing to do with Protestants who may be in material heresy or schismatics who may only be in material schism.  I dispute what LaGrange is saying on those points ... but the fact that you think it has something to do with "Baptism of Desire" is simply more proof that for you BoD is nothing but code-ward for "salvation by sincerity".

    As for LaGrange's "Rewarder God" theory for those who actually aren't baptized (various infidels, etc.), the majority of Catholic opinion has always rejected it (as admitted by Msgr. Fenton) and adhered to explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.  In addition, the Holy Office at one point condemned Rewarder God theory.  But that's an entirely separate discussion that has nothing to do with Baptism of Desire, but more to the requirements for supernatural faith, what I've rejected as "faith of desire".

    You don't even understand the basic term "Baptism of Desire" and are extending it to all forms of "salvation by sincerity" and are thereby adhering to and promoting Pelagian heresy.

    I've long stated that BoD is a tenable opinion, but that 90% of the time it's being used as cover for Pelagian heresy.  Your posts are a perfect example of that.

    Offline JCRev2033

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 18
    • Reputation: +5/-32
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #13 on: September 18, 2024, 08:14:06 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!2
  • Nope.i understand it just fine.baptism of desire means an act of perfect love of God, or an act of contrition,along with explicit or implicit desire for the sacraments.yes, prots, orthos etc in material heresy/schism can make acts of contrition, enter or recover the sttate of grace, and thus remain or reenter the Church, outside of whichthere is no state of grace.rewarder god theory is not any heresy, and the same Holy Office condemned those who denied baptismofdesire under Pope Pius xii. Justification by implicit faith, and salvation after explicit faith is held by many theologians and is an acceptable and allowable opinion.fr. garrigou lagrange explains it very reasonably.Youneedto repent of your dimonditeheresy, my friendladislaus,and return home once and for all to the Roman Catholic Church.

    Offline JCRev2033

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 18
    • Reputation: +5/-32
    • Gender: Male
    Re: If an unbaptsied person commits only venial sins - limbo or sense pain hell
    « Reply #14 on: September 18, 2024, 08:15:51 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!2
  • contrition,astrent and its catechism explain, is within the power of all, yet is very difficult if not practically impossible for most. yet, with the aid of grace, a person can be moved to love Godaboveallthings, asSt.Alphonsusmentions, and then can enter the state of grace.after this,somesay,he will later also be led toexplicitfaithinChrist before death.