Author Topic: Icons of Schismatics, Art Prints, Various related questions (Read 2126 times)

Vladimir · « **on:** January 24, 2012, 11:31:11 PM »

1. In this day and age is it allowable for a traditional Roman Catholic to purchase icons made by schismatics? The icons being purchased would benefit the schismatic organization producing them, but the icons themselves would not be icons of heretic/schismatic saints and could most likely be found from an Eastern Catholic source, albeit it would be more inconvenient and probably more expensive (to the point of being unaffordable) should one want to take the time to find such an icon.

2. What happened to the art prints for sale at www.chantcd.com? If anyone remembers what the old ones looked like, do you know where they can be bought at the same low rate?

3. It is certainly O.K. to burn candles in front of icons, paintings, statues, etc - but what about incense? Not the same type of incense used in a thurible at mass, but the red sticks of incense with the yellow powder (anyone who lives near an Asian community should recognize the look, if not the smell) that Buddhists, etc use? Candles can be expensive. My concern is that some of these incense have brand-names like "Guan-yin Incense" (Guan-yin is the Buddhist goddess of mercy that the missionaries mistook for the B.V.M.) or "Heavenly Maiden Fragrance", etc - I'm not sure if the incense is somehow "consecrated" to these idols (actually, I really doubt it), but what do "y'all" think?

s2srea · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2012, 11:57:02 PM »

Excellent questions!

Paige · « **Reply #2 on:** January 25, 2012, 07:48:00 PM »

Agreed, very good questions!

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2012, 03:07:20 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

1. In this day and age is it allowable for a traditional Roman Catholic to purchase icons made by schismatics? The icons being purchased would benefit the schismatic organization producing them, but the icons themselves would not be icons of heretic/schismatic saints and could most likely be found from an Eastern Catholic source, albeit it would be more inconvenient and probably more expensive (to the point of being unaffordable) should one want to take the time to find such an icon.

....

3. It is certainly O.K. to burn candles in front of icons, paintings, statues, etc - but what about incense? Not the same type of incense used in a thurible at mass, but the red sticks of incense with the yellow powder (anyone who lives near an Asian community should recognize the look, if not the smell) that Buddhists, etc use? Candles can be expensive. My concern is that some of these incense have brand-names like "Guan-yin Incense" (Guan-yin is the Buddhist goddess of mercy that the missionaries mistook for the B.V.M.) or "Heavenly Maiden Fragrance", etc - I'm not sure if the incense is somehow "consecrated" to these idols (actually, I really doubt it), but what do "y'all" think?

First let me correct you Vlad. It's "yall".

1. I think it would be okay so long as the icon is of a canonized Catholic saint. I don't think it matters if you are buying them from an Orthodox vendor. If you bought them at a Catholic bookstore or gift-shop (that's not part of your parish) you would likely be buying them from a place that is N.O. and is more than likely to be stocked with heretical books, and will be regularly selling religious supplies to non-catholic groups.

3. Like the candles, your going to take the sticks to the priest to have them blessed. I'd ask him about it then.

I don't know if there is any way you can find out if the "pagan brands" of incense have been previously blessed or not. I don't know if they would need an exorcism or a simple blessing if they are. I've seen plenty of non-religious type incense for sale here and there, but I'm guessing your after a traditional religious fragrance?

Candles are actually pretty cheap over here. You can buy some candles at the dollar stores over here, though the pictures and labeling aren't as nice. But you can get some good ones at the grocery stores in Mexican neighborhoods. That's where I prefer to get mine. The downside to using candles is that some of them are scented, and you don't know what they are using for fragrance.

Vladimir · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2012, 08:15:35 PM »

This is the incense I am referring to (this was found with Google Search "Buddhist Incense"):

They are probably just packed en masse so I don't think they are individually "blessed", etc. I'm not worried about buying this or that brand - it's just that these can be bought cheap and they don't have some nauseating aromatic smell. It does not seem right to burn incense made to freshen up the house in front of a sacred image.

I wonder what Chinese Catholics did before Vatican II.

s2srea · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2012, 08:37:14 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

I wonder what Chinese Catholics did before Vatican II.

Hmm. Interesting. It was the Latins who brought the gospel to the orient right? I would say go for it. I can't imagine this being wrong, or less right, in any way then a candle. If your goal is to give glory to our Lord, and it is in no way disrespectful or contrary to Catholic worship, how can it be wrong? Of course, asking your father confessor for the final answer is a must.

Sigismund · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2012, 12:19:23 PM »

I asked my son, who is a Byzantine priest, what he thought. He said he would happily bless reproductions of Icons written by Orthodox iconographers, feeling that once he blesses it, it is a Catholic icon. However, he won't bless icons produced by a group that used to be called Holy Protection Monastery and is now called Light of Christ. He says the are actually Gnostics and worship Hindu deities, and are basically dishonest and hide this from Catholic and Orthodox customers. This is a shame, because the have a number of Icons of Western saints.

He saw no problem with stick incense, but suggested that you have it blessed by a priest if you would feel better about it.

CalCal · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2012, 04:50:44 PM »

Vladimir, the incense is fine, it is just a general sandalwood scent, and much ncier than "foo foo incense" meant to decorate houses, as you said.
The incense sticks you mention are mass produced and are not 'blessed' in any way that I have ever heard of.

Retablo · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »

Vladimir:

It is no more worrisome to burn incense sticks before an Icon than it would be to spray Febreeze in front of one; they're purely aromatherapeutical. They aren't "blessed" or "cursed" or anything else. Only a priest of the true religion of God has the power to genuinely bless anything, in any case; anything else is utterly impotent and meaningless. A circle of voodoo witches could stand over the incense sticks, sprinkle them with the blood of a dead black cat, and chant a curse over them at the stroke of midnight and it wouldn't do anything to them (apart from make them unsaleable, what with all that blood sprinkled all over them).

As far as icons go, they aren't the icons of heretics, mind you, but the icons of artists. The work comes from the talent of the artist and not from the heresy of a sect he may belong to. We could just as easily ask if the frescoes of men who were not in the state of grace may adorn our churches, or if the music of hypocrites may be permitted in our liturgy. So-called "Protestant" hymns make their way into Traditional Catholic worship all the time, I notice. Pope Pius VII was patron of the famous Lutheran sculptor Thorvaldsen who sculpted a celebrated statue of the pontiff and an even more celebrated statue of our Lord, the "Christus Consolator". The heresy of his sect had nothing to do with his remarkable talent or his art, however. Could a statue of a pope ever be called a "Protestant" statue, just because it was sculpted by the hands of a man identifying himself as a Protestant? No, of course not. Then why a tune by a composer? Is an Icon any different?

I think you're safe on all counts.

Vladimir · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2012, 02:12:14 PM »

Quote from: Retablo

Vladimir:

It is no more worrisome to burn incense sticks before an Icon than it would be to spray Febreeze in front of one; they're purely aromatherapeutical. They aren't "blessed" or "cursed" or anything else. Only a priest of the true religion of God has the power to genuinely bless anything, in any case; anything else is utterly impotent and meaningless. A circle of voodoo witches could stand over the incense sticks, sprinkle them with the blood of a dead black cat, and chant a curse over them at the stroke of midnight and it wouldn't do anything to them (apart from make them unsaleable, what with all that blood sprinkled all over them).

As far as icons go, they aren't the icons of heretics, mind you, but the icons of artists. The work comes from the talent of the artist and not from the heresy of a sect he may belong to. We could just as easily ask if the frescoes of men who were not in the state of grace may adorn our churches, or if the music of hypocrites may be permitted in our liturgy. So-called "Protestant" hymns make their way into Traditional Catholic worship all the time, I notice. Pope Pius VII was patron of the famous Lutheran sculptor Thorvaldsen who sculpted a celebrated statue of the pontiff and an even more celebrated statue of our Lord, the "Christus Consolator". The heresy of his sect had nothing to do with his remarkable talent or his art, however. Could a statue of a pope ever be called a "Protestant" statue, just because it was sculpted by the hands of a man identifying himself as a Protestant? No, of course not. Then why a tune by a composer? Is an Icon any different?

I think you're safe on all counts.

Thank you.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2012, 02:55:38 PM »

Quote from: Retablo

Vladimir:

It is no more worrisome to burn incense sticks before an Icon than it would be to spray Febreeze in front of one; they're purely aromatherapeutical. They aren't "blessed" or "cursed" or anything else. Only a priest of the true religion of God has the power to genuinely bless anything, in any case; anything else is utterly impotent and meaningless. A circle of voodoo witches could stand over the incense sticks, sprinkle them with the blood of a dead black cat, and chant a curse over them at the stroke of midnight and it wouldn't do anything to them (apart from make them unsaleable, what with all that blood sprinkled all over them).

I only have a problem with this part of your post.

Yes it does matter if someone performed some sort of satanic ritual or something over them, because that would be a consecration/dedication of the item to the service of the devil, and the devil would recognize it as belonging to him.

The item(s) would have to be blessed or exorcised by a priest afterward.

Retablo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:07:20 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Samurai

Quote from: Retablo
Vladimir:

It is no more worrisome to burn incense sticks before an Icon than it would be to spray Febreeze in front of one; they're purely aromatherapeutical. They aren't "blessed" or "cursed" or anything else. Only a priest of the true religion of God has the power to genuinely bless anything, in any case; anything else is utterly impotent and meaningless. A circle of voodoo witches could stand over the incense sticks, sprinkle them with the blood of a dead black cat, and chant a curse over them at the stroke of midnight and it wouldn't do anything to them (apart from make them unsaleable, what with all that blood sprinkled all over them).

I only have a problem with this part of your post.

Yes it does matter if someone performed some sort of satanic ritual or something over them, because that would be a consecration/dedication of the item to the service of the devil, and the devil would recognize it as belonging to him.

The item(s) would have to be blessed or exorcised by a priest afterward.

Do you think? Okay, well, maybe. I'm not sure. The Devil thinks that everything on Earth and in Heaven belongs to him, anyway, so what difference would a voodoo incantation over some incense sticks actually make, really?

Such people, to my understanding (which I admit may be flawed) have only imagined powers, not real powers, so what would that actually do to the incense sticks? I'm inclined to think it wouldn't do anything. Say a group of liberal senators consecrated the sticks to...I don't know...Hillary Clinton. Would that actually mean anything? No. Same with voodoo practitioners, I think. Their "power" is psychological, not supernatural. At least as far as I can see.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:14:14 PM »

Quote from: Retablo

Do you think? Okay, well, maybe. I'm not sure. The Devil thinks that everything on Earth and in Heaven belongs to him, anyway, so what difference would a voodoo incantation over some incense sticks actually make, really?

Such people, to my understanding (which I admit may be flawed) have only imagined powers, not real powers, so what would that actually do to the incense sticks? I'm inclined to think it wouldn't do anything. Say a group of liberal senators consecrated the sticks to...I don't know...Hillary Clinton. Would that actually mean anything? No. Same with voodoo practitioners, I think. Their "power" is psychological, not supernatural. At least as far as I can see.

No, CS is right. I've heard stories of people who unknowingly bought items from a Freemasonic lodge, and when they brought the items home, horrible stuff started happening.

Retablo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:19:17 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

No, CS is right. I've heard stories of people who unknowingly bought items from a Freemasonic lodge, and when they brought the items home, horrible stuff started happening.

Well...with respect, that's not really evidence, is it? One hears lots of strange stories second hand.

Sigismund · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:19:37 PM »

If you buy the incense in a secular store, I seems very unlikely that something like tat would happen. However, stores that sell new age and pagan things often sell incense sticks, and these should certainly be avoided. Perhaps having anything like that blessed is the safest course.