Author Topic: i often wonder about Judas. (Read 1448 times)

cassini · « **on:** April 18, 2025, 07:49:10 AM »

There is no doubt but Judas has had a hard time since he betrayed Jesus
by picking him out as the one the Jews and Romans were looking for.
Every Holy Thursday he gets a hammering with the story in the garden of Gethsemane
I have even read that he has to be in Hell.
St Peter and others also denied even knowing Jesus.
Now the Catholic Church teaches that even the worst sinner can save their soul
if they repent. Peter and others did. So, did Judas repent? When he realised what his betrayal caused he
gave back the 30 pieces of silver he got for picking out Jesus. Such was his regret
when seeing the consequences of what happened that he also took his own life by hanging himself.
Is that not the ultimate repentance for doing something wrong, killing yourself.
I often wondered about that, and have do doubts that Jesus could have forgiven him.
Yet, I have never read of any saint or writer discuss this subject.
I would love to hear other opinions.

Stubborn · « **Reply #1 on:** April 18, 2025, 08:10:17 AM »

He could not have been forgiven because he did not give Jesus the chance to forgive him. He regretted what he did, threw back the 30 pieces of silver "Saying: I have sinned in betraying innocent blood" then went and hung himself - which is a mortal sin.

Don't forget, Our Lord said: "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born." [Matthew 26:24]

VerdenFell · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2025, 08:15:24 AM »

the conciliar church teaches that only the Austrian painter is in hell

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** April 18, 2025, 08:25:44 AM »

So when Our Lord said that it would have been better had he never been born would be false if Judas had been saved, and therefore Judas is lost.

Simply regretting one's actions is not the same as repentance. Instead of weeping and converting/changing after St. Peter did with his betrayal, Judas despaired. When someone despairs, there's a total self-absorption or self-focus there, where you're upset exclusively because of the impact the sin had on you, where you have the guilt of the crime ... rather than repenting due to the consequences of your actions.

Judas could have avoided despair had he recalled that Our Lord said that the betrayal and His crucifixion and death had to happen ... something that even the other Apostles appear to have either forgotten or not believed or just "filtered out" due to their not wanting to believe it (cognitive dissonance).

Bottom line is that regret by itself does not equate to repentance, since true reptentance depends on the motivation. Why did he "regret" it? Could it just have been because he'd certainly be kicked out by the Apostles from their fellowship and his "grift" (of stealing) would have been over? Or because his reputation would be destroyed? We don't know. Now, after Our Lord's Redemption, we can have a selfish motivation (imperfect contrition) where we do regret the consequences the sin has on our souls, and that suffices in the Sacrament of Confession due to Our Lord's Mercy, because He already supplied the pefect contrition and satisfaction for our sins.

But Judas appears to have had an at-best imperfect contrition for his actions (self-focused), which as stated outside the Sacrament of Confession, does not restore someone to a state of grace, but then also despaired (again due to the self-focus).

So, the Gospels also mention that Judas, when he objected to Mary Magdalene's anointing of Our Lord, wasn't actually concerned about the poor, but he had been embezzling from their common funds, so his corruption goes way back. We don't know why. Did he just not have faith in Our Lord or lose it along the way? Or was he just overcome with greed? If the latter, that also factors in, since, as the Council of Trent teaches, there can be no justification without faith ... so if Judas had no faith, he could not have been saved anyway. Without faith, you could regret any bad actions of yours all you want, for natural reasons, but without that regret being animated by supernatural faith, there can be no forgiveness. Recall that NO AMOUNT OF REPENTANCE on our part suffices for forgiveness (per St. Anselm in "Cur Deus Homo") ... but only because Our Lord's Redemption sufficed, and we can only have the fruits of His Redemption communicated to our souls if we have faith in Our Lord (and then of course supernatural charity, etc.)

If Judas had had faith, and at least imperfect contrition, he could have gone to the other Apostles and been absolved of his sin (since Our Lord had given them the power to forgive sins) ... but he may not have had any faith at all, and he did not seek forgiveness and therefore his imperfect contritiont could not have sufficed to restore him to a state of justification.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2025, 08:27:36 AM »

Quote from: VerdenFell on April 18, 2025, 08:15:24 AM

the conciliar church teaches that only the Austrian painter is in hell

Right ... and maybe even good "Uncle Joe" made it, but definitely not that guy.

Of course, the Conciliar Church under Jorge at least teaches that all religions lead to God ... except Traditional Catholicism, since those are reprobate. Consequently, it might be just the Australian painter and Trad Catholics (especially Hoax deniers such as Bishop Williamson) who are in Hell.

Of course, according to Scalfari (whom I have no reason to doubt), Jorge believes in the heresy (that of Origen, condemned as heresy by the Church) that in the end even the damned will be somehow restored.

hgodwinson · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2025, 08:38:45 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 18, 2025, 08:25:44 AM

So when Our Lord said that it would have been better had he never been born would be false if Judas had been saved, and therefore Judas is lost.

Is this a Church teaching or a logical conclusion because I have often heard it said that no layman can know for certain who is damned (not even Judas Iscariot).

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2025, 09:18:09 AM »

Quote from: hgodwinson on April 18, 2025, 08:38:45 AM

Is this a Church teaching or a logical conclusion because I have often heard it said that no layman can know for certain who is damned (not even Judas Iscariot).

What you've heard is generally inaccurate, as this inability to know the internal forum it not limited to "laymen" or even to "Churchmen", but even the Church cannot and does not know for sure about the damnation of souls ... unless it was REVEALED through actual Public Revelation. Now, the Church's charism of infallibility prevents mistaken judgments regarding who IS in Heaven, i.e. in the canonization of saints ... but there's no protection against even the Church being wrong about who is certainly in Hell ... so the reference to "layman" is completely moot and warps the principles behind it.

What we have here, however, is a case of Divine Revelation where God Himself in Sacred Scripture revealed that Judas would be lost, where He stated that it would have been better for him had he never been born. Our Lord does not make false statements.

So this is the one case where we have Public Divine Revelation (vs. private revelations) that this one soul has been lost.

Of course, we have to be careful of this nonsense that's being promoted by the Modernist Pelagian heretics that salvation is purely an internal forum thing. If one is not inside the Catholic Church at death, then one is lost. Non-Catholics are all presumed lost by the Church. So, for instance, there was one question put to the Holy Office under St. Pius X asking whether if asked a Catholic may respond that Confucius (the specific example cited) could have been saved. Holy Office responded in the negative declaring that a Catholic, when asked about Confucius (or other infidels), must state that Confucius is damned. While there isn't absolute certainty, the Church directs that Catholics consider it morally certain that those who died without having manifested in the external forum signs of their conversion. We can't hem-haw about the one-in-a-billion possibility that somehow in the depths of their souls, unbeknownst to all, one or two souls may have received some light or grace of conversion ... since that does nothing but undermine the principle and lead to the attitude of ... heck, anybody could be saved ... and thereby gutting the Church's teaching.

In short, even the Church would not know (not just laymen) that Judas had been damned by Public Revelation (which ended at the death of the last Apostle). But in the case of Judas, we have Public Revelation in Sacred Scripture, and then also a unanimity of Church Fathers considered him damned, so that's typically taken as a sign Divine Revelation by Tradition as well.

WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2025, 09:47:31 AM »

Quote from: cassini on April 18, 2025, 07:49:10 AM

There is no doubt but Judas has had a hard time since he betrayed Jesus
by picking him out as the one the Jews and Romans were looking for.
Every Holy Thursday he gets a hammering with the story in the garden of Gethsemane
I have even read that he has to be in Hell.

Judas doesn't even come close to getting hammered as Adolf Hitler. Hitler is, by far, the most demonized man in world history. By who? The jews. They own the media, schools, governments and banks. You will go to prison in some parts of Europe for even saying something nice about Hitler or doubting the h0Ɩ0h0αx.

hgodwinson · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2025, 10:13:59 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 18, 2025, 09:18:09 AM

What you've heard is generally inaccurate, as this inability to know the internal forum it not limited to "laymen" or even to "Churchmen", but even the Church cannot and does not know for sure about the damnation of souls ... unless it was REVEALED through actual Public Revelation. Now, the Church's charism of infallibility prevents mistaken judgments regarding who IS in Heaven, i.e. in the canonization of saints ... but there's no protection against even the Church being wrong about who is certainly in Hell ... so the reference to "layman" is completely moot and warps the principles behind it.

What we have here, however, is a case of Divine Revelation where God Himself in Sacred Scripture revealed that Judas would be lost, where He stated that it would have been better for him had he never been born. Our Lord does not make false statements.

So this is the one case where we have Public Divine Revelation (vs. private revelations) that this one soul has been lost.

Of course, we have to be careful of this nonsense that's being promoted by the Modernist Pelagian heretics that salvation is purely an internal forum thing. If one is not inside the Catholic Church at death, then one is lost. Non-Catholics are all presumed lost by the Church. So, for instance, there was one question put to the Holy Office under St. Pius X asking whether if asked a Catholic may respond that Confucius (the specific example cited) could have been saved. Holy Office responded in the negative declaring that a Catholic, when asked about Confucius (or other infidels), must state that Confucius is damned. While there isn't absolute certainty, the Church directs that Catholics consider it morally certain that those who died without having manifested in the external forum signs of their conversion. We can't hem-haw about the one-in-a-billion possibility that somehow in the depths of their souls, unbeknownst to all, one or two souls may have received some light or grace of conversion ... since that does nothing but undermine the principle and lead to the attitude of ... heck, anybody could be saved ... and thereby gutting the Church's teaching.

In short, even the Church would not know (not just laymen) that Judas had been damned by Public Revelation (which ended at the death of the last Apostle). But in the case of Judas, we have Public Revelation in Sacred Scripture, and then also a unanimity of Church Fathers considered him damned, so that's typically taken as a sign Divine Revelation by Tradition as well.

Thank you. I really appreciate you clearing that up for me. God bless.

cassini · « **Reply #9 on:** April 18, 2025, 12:10:36 PM »

Thanks all. A subject well worth debating. Pity two gave the debate thumbs down.
I thought that was the purpose of a Catholic forum.

Yeti · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2025, 05:49:39 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 18, 2025, 09:18:09 AM

What we have here, however, is a case of Divine Revelation where God Himself in Sacred Scripture revealed that Judas would be lost, where He stated that it would have been better for him had he never been born. Our Lord does not make false statements.

So this is the one case where we have Public Divine Revelation (vs. private revelations) that this one soul has been lost.

.

This right here, Cassini, is the answer to your question.

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2025, 07:28:49 PM »

Quote from: cassini on April 18, 2025, 07:49:10 AM

There is no doubt but Judas has had a hard time since he betrayed Jesus
by picking him out as the one the Jews and Romans were looking for.
Every Holy Thursday he gets a hammering with the story in the garden of Gethsemane
I have even read that he has to be in Hell.
St Peter and others also denied even knowing Jesus.
Now the Catholic Church teaches that even the worst sinner can save their soul
if they repent. Peter and others did. So, did Judas repent? When he realised what his betrayal caused he
gave back the 30 pieces of silver he got for picking out Jesus. Such was his regret
when seeing the consequences of what happened that he also took his own life by hanging himself.
Is that not the ultimate repentance for doing something wrong, killing yourself.
I often wondered about that, and have do doubts that Jesus could have forgiven him.
Yet, I have never read of any saint or writer discuss this subject.
I would love to hear other opinions.

I read in a work by t Alphonsus that Judas sinned with the intention of trusting in the mercy of our Lord (similar to the devil), someone who offends Divine Justice has recourse to Mercy but those that offend Mercy has recourse to no one. By committing a sin while hoping for pardon is a mockery of God and God won't be mocked.

Also we see Judas already had been in a habit of sin as he "was a thief" taking money from the purse. So there is a lesson here of how we should avoid all occasions of sin and habits of sin we may have less we do some greater evil after our soul has been weakened by sin.

cassini · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2025, 05:01:56 AM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on April 18, 2025, 07:28:49 PM

I read in a work by t Alphonsus that Judas sinned with the intention of trusting in the mercy of our Lord (similar to the devil), someone who offends Divine Justice has recourse to Mercy but those that offend Mercy has recourse to no one. By committing a sin while hoping for pardon is a mockery of God and God won't be mocked.

Also we see Judas already had been in a habit of sin as he "was a thief" taking money from the purse. So there is a lesson here of how we should avoid all occasions of sin and habits of sin we may have less we do some greater evil after our soul has been weakened by sin.

Another great point Anthony. How about the thief who died with Jesus. What was the cause of him being saved.

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2025, 05:36:15 PM »

One of the mystics describes how Mary the Mother of God was calling out to Judas because she knew what he had done; but the more she cried out the faster he ran away to his tree of self-execution.

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #14 on:** April 19, 2025, 08:08:16 PM »

Quote from: cassini on April 19, 2025, 05:01:56 AM

Another great point Anthony. How about the thief who died with Jesus. What was the cause of him being saved.

God's grace.

...and I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will be merciful to whom it shall please me.
[Exodus 33:19]

Also both criminals on the cross mocked Christ with the jews

38 Then were crucified with him two thieves: one on the right hand, and one on the left.
39 And they that passed by, blasphemed him, wagging their heads,
40 And saying: Vah, thou that destroyest the temple of God, and in three days dost rebuild it: save thy own self: if thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41 In like manner also the chief priests, with the scribes and ancients, mocking, said:
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the king of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him now deliver him if he will have him; for he said: I am the Son of God.
44 And the selfsame thing the thieves also, that were crucified with him, reproached him with.

One of the thieves would repent and be saved, the other would not and be damned. And why? Because God will have mercy on whom ever He wills. No one is owed salvation, and grace is a gift (hence the name grace). Having mercy on one thief was a miracle and increases the glory of God through His mercy. Allowing the other thief to die in his sins increases the glory of God by His justice, as sinners get what they deserve.

Hence yet another reason I agree with St Augustine where he writes against Julian, "let it not be said that God will allow any of His elect before receiving the sacrament of the mediator", because God is always in control, Divine providence will always provide as God's will be done, and why one dies a catechumen before baptism (who may have seemed like a good/kind person by humans judgment) while another who is terrible may be saved. Because God allowed it to happen, there is no need or place to question why God saves one but not another.

O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!
[Romans 11:33]

* Note that the thief died under the law old before the promulgation of the Gospel and did not need to be baptized, though we see in the Gospels that when Christ rose from the died some of Saints also rose with Him, so it's possible the old testament Saints were baptized during the 40 days before the Ascension

And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were rent.
52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,
53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Author Topic: i often wonder about Judas. (Read 1448 times)

cassini

i often wonder about Judas.

Stubborn

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VerdenFell

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Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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hgodwinson

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Ladislaus

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WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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hgodwinson

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cassini

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Yeti

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AnthonyPadua

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cassini

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OABrownson1876

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AnthonyPadua

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