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Offline Traditional Guy 20

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I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
« on: May 26, 2013, 05:59:26 PM »
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  • If you ever get welfare I hate it how those who know you look down on you and consider you a bum because you (*GASP*) actually need help to live because your employer does not pay you enough to live descently. I hate it that everyone looks down on you because you have to go to the Church to ask for relief.

    Let me say another thing, women and old people, who are very liberal and capitalist in their thinking are the worst when it comes to being snobbish towards you, as if you are a parasite for needing help to pay your bills. They act as if everyone should be able to pay everything and that everyone has the opportunity to become rich.

    Once we entered our modern godless liberal and capitalist society however it was bound to happen that compassion towards your fellow man (and no I do not mean compassion for laziness or those who break the law and are not citizens) would become the norm.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 06:08:28 PM »
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  • Whoops it should have been "compassion for your fellow man would NOT become the norm."


    Offline JohnGrey

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 06:11:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    If you ever get welfare I hate it how those who know you look down on you and consider you a bum because you (*GASP*) actually need help to live because your employer does not pay you enough to live descently. I hate it that everyone looks down on you because you have to go to the Church to ask for relief.

    Let me say another thing, women and old people, who are very liberal and capitalist in their thinking are the worst when it comes to being snobbish towards you, as if you are a parasite for needing help to pay your bills. They act as if everyone should be able to pay everything and that everyone has the opportunity to become rich.

    Once we entered our modern godless liberal and capitalist society however it was bound to happen that compassion towards your fellow man (and no I do not mean compassion for laziness or those who break the law and are not citizens) would NOT become the norm.


    I've noticed that you have spoken antagonistically regarding capitalism numerous times, especially in the recent past.  May I assume, from those comments, that you espouse the crypto-Marxism of Belloc and Chesterton known as distributism?

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 06:27:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    I've noticed that you have spoken antagonistically regarding capitalism numerous times, especially in the recent past.  May I assume, from those comments, that you espouse the crypto-Marxism of Belloc and Chesterton known as distributism?


    If you know of my posting history you also know of my antagonistic views towards Marxism as well. I support the Catholic theory of social justice.

    Offline JohnGrey

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 06:37:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    If you know of my posting history you also know of my antagonistic views towards Marxism as well. I support the Catholic theory of social justice.


    And how do you define the Catholic theory of social justice?


    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 06:42:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    And how do you define the Catholic theory of social justice?


    Well for one thing a business should pay a man a wage high enough to support his family.

    I also have my own economic policies favoring a market controlled by morality, not market forces, and I also am a protectionist.

    Marxism does not support private property and I do; therefore I am not a Marxist. However I am against the liberal and capitalist views that emerged out of the Enlightenment which put the self-interest of the individaul over what is good for the nation.

    I am a nationalist therefore private property and business rights receed before what is good for the national interests.

    Offline Marlelar

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 06:44:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    If you ever get welfare I hate it how those who know you look down on you and consider you a bum because you (*GASP*) actually need help to live because your employer does not pay you enough to live descently. I hate it that everyone looks down on you because you have to go to the Church to ask for relief.

    Let me say another thing, women and old people, who are very liberal and capitalist in their thinking are the worst when it comes to being snobbish towards you, as if you are a parasite for needing help to pay your bills. They act as if everyone should be able to pay everything and that everyone has the opportunity to become rich.

    Once we entered our modern godless liberal and capitalist society however it was bound to happen that compassion towards your fellow man (and no I do not mean compassion for laziness or those who break the law and are not citizens) would become the norm.


    Why would anyone know that someone else is on welfare?  
    And why would the recipient care what others think about it?  

    Only those who are heartless would look down on someone who genuinely needs help due to circumstances beyond their control and why would someone care what a heartless b****rd thinks?

    To me it is a non-issue.  If a recipient cares what others think of him/her for receiving welfare they have a pride issue.

    That said, I think that everyone who receives public assistance should be required to attend a financial skills/budgeting workshop and check in w/a budget mentor on a quarterly basis.  Having volunteered with SVdP for years I saw first hand the disasters that befall people who have no clue how to handle money.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 06:57:12 PM »
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  • Here is what that vile libertarian Murray Rothbard thinks of Catholic social justice. :wink:

    "Catholic social justice is virulently anti-capitalist and, in fact, pro-fascist. This fascist tendency is revealed by the trend of European Catholicism between the wars toward the adoption of the corporate state as their ideal."


    Offline Marlelar

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 07:01:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Well for one thing a business should pay a man a wage high enough to support his family.


    How high is that?  Who decides the amount?

    Some jobs are not meant to be held by grown men.  Working at McDonalds or blowing leaves and weeding is not work for a man but for a boy.  That is unskilled labor and a person should not expect much pay for unskilled labor.

    Marsha

    Offline JohnGrey

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 07:01:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Well for one thing a business should pay a man a wage high enough to support his family.


    "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need."  This is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx, and it is central to the concept of all forms of Statism.  The wage for a job is rightly determined by the time and effort required to execute that job, compounded by the degree of that job's specialization, which is determined by the number of individuals available to do it competently.  There is a reason that a mechanic specializing in GM cars is paid less than a doctor.

    Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    I also have my own economic policies favoring a market controlled by morality, not market forces, and I also am a protectionist.

    Marxism does not support private property and I do; therefore I am not a Marxist. However I am against the liberal and capitalist views that emerged out of the Enlightenment which put the self-interest of the individaul over what is good for the nation.


    That's where you have it wrong, and consequently what makes you a Marxist.  Marxism recognizes the difference between property of a consumable nature and property of a real nature, that is property whose utilization allows for the creation of wealth.  Marxism, in the abstract, permits the former but not the latter.

    There can be, in practice, no limited form of private property.  Either you own something or you do not.  If you do, then no one should be able to take it from you except that you trade it, freely and without duress, for like value, in good or currency, or that it be taken from you in payment for the commission of a crime.  The fact of the matter is that the practice of charity is a work of corporal mercy and therefore has no relation to virtue of justice.  Indeed, justice is properly understood as the compact, between citizens and between citizen and State, that the rights of either shall be inviolate so long as the rights of the other are not infringed.  Welfare, or any other term for the disbursement of material goods for payment has not been given, is not an work of justice, but one of mercy.  Therein lay that essential distinction which makes such efforts outside the province of the civil state.  The justice of the State, understood in the context of the Catholic religion is thus:

    1.) The foundation of government is establishment of Christ the King as the center of law and order, through the public and irrevocable establishment of the Christian religion, specifically and exclusively the Roman Catholic Church, and cooperation with the same through the legislation of laws that are in absolute accord with divine and natural law.

    2.) Pursuant to first point, that the State exercises its power in that it acts punitively against those that violate the compact of civil justice, and that the purpose of established order is to preserve the life and property of the citizens over which it holds civil power.  Moreover, the exercise of civil jurisprudence, in proceeding from just law and extension unassailable moral authority, must be exercised dispassionately.

    3.) To exercise, where necessary and always in accord with the precepts of just war, martial power for the safety and freedom of its citizens.

    Now, no doubt you and others would argued that welfare, monetary assistance for the poor, et cetera, would fall under the purview of maintaining order, in that it prevents civil disturbance through alleviating class inequality.  In fact, it does nothing but exacerbate those tensions.  The redistribution of wealth in the form of welfare violates civil justice in two main ways:

    1.) It legitimizes the right of one class of people to effectively ransom another class of people at gunpoint

    2.) The undermines the entire basis of civil law and moral authority with regard to the government in that, by accepting that crime and other civil disturbance will be the inevitable outcome of not redistributing wealth, in is effectively paying its own citizens to not engage in criminal activity, thereby implicitly stating that its law is neither objective nor enforceable depending on one's state in life.

    Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    I am a nationalist therefore private property and business rights receed before what is good for the national interests.


    Then you're a Marxist, whatever label you apply to yourself.  The only difference is that the gunpoint theft that you encourage politically is done in the name of God instead of the State.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 07:03:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    How high is that?  Who decides the amount?

    Some jobs are not meant to be held by grown men.  Working at McDonalds or blowing leaves and weeding is not work for a man but for a boy.  That is unskilled labor and a person should not expect much pay for unskilled labor.

    Marsha


    Obviously the man who is supporting his family should be paid higher than those who are single.


    Offline JohnGrey

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 07:06:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Quote from: Marlelar
    How high is that?  Who decides the amount?

    Some jobs are not meant to be held by grown men.  Working at McDonalds or blowing leaves and weeding is not work for a man but for a boy.  That is unskilled labor and a person should not expect much pay for unskilled labor.

    Marsha


    Obviously the man who is supporting his family should be paid higher than those who are single.


    "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." - Karl Marx

    I'll post it as many times as necessary till it sinks in.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #12 on: May 26, 2013, 07:19:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need."  This is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx, and it is central to the concept of all forms of Statism.  The wage for a job is rightly determined by the time and effort required to execute that job, compounded by the degree of that job's specialization, which is determined by the number of individuals available to do it competently.  There is a reason that a mechanic specializing in GM cars is paid less than a doctor.


    Since you obsess over Karl Marx here are some famous liberals to quote right back at you:

    "If goods do not cross borders armies will." Frederic Bastiat

    "All nations are but accidents of battle, negotiations, and border disputes." David Hume

    "I see Free Trade as the way, the truth, and the life...of drawing men together, to breaking down the antagonism of race, creed, and language, and bringing us all to world peace." Richard Cobden

    Obviously within the nation there should be no class antagonism, which Marxism supports, however class peace and harmony can only be done when social justice is put in its place. Your form of "Statism" would make every government from Athens to the France of the Sun King to be "unsuccessful socities."

    Quote
    where you have it wrong, and consequently what makes you a Marxist.  Marxism recognizes the difference between property of a consumable nature and property of a real nature, that is property whose utilization allows for the creation of wealth.  Marxism, in the abstract, permits the former but not the latter.

    There can be, in practice, no limited form of private property.  Either you own something or you do not.  If you do, then no one should be able to take it from you except that you trade it, freely and without duress, for like value, in good or currency, or that it be taken from you in payment for the commission of a crime.  The fact of the matter is that the practice of charity is a work of corporal mercy and therefore has no relation to virtue of justice.  Indeed, justice is properly understood as the compact, between citizens and between citizen and State, that the rights of either shall be inviolate so long as the rights of the other are not infringed.  Welfare, or any other term for the disbursement of material goods for payment has not been given, is not an work of justice, but one of mercy.  Therein lay that essential distinction which makes such efforts outside the province of the civil state.  The justice of the State, understood in the context of the Catholic religion is thus:

    1.) The foundation of government is establishment of Christ the King as the center of law and order, through the public and irrevocable establishment of the Christian religion, specifically and exclusively the Roman Catholic Church, and cooperation with the same through the legislation of laws that are in absolute accord with divine and natural law.

    2.) Pursuant to first point, that the State exercises its power in that it acts punitively against those that violate the compact of civil justice, and that the purpose of established order is to preserve the life and property of the citizens over which it holds civil power.  Moreover, the exercise of civil jurisprudence, in proceeding from just law and extension unassailable moral authority, must be exercised dispassionately.

    3.) To exercise, where necessary and always in accord with the precepts of just war, martial power for the safety and freedom of its citizens.

    Now, no doubt you and others would argued that welfare, monetary assistance for the poor, et cetera, would fall under the purview of maintaining order, in that it prevents civil disturbance through alleviating class inequality.  In fact, it does nothing but exacerbate those tensions.  The redistribution of wealth in the form of welfare violates civil justice in two main ways:

    1.) It legitimizes the right of one class of people to effectively ransom another class of people at gunpoint

    2.) The undermines the entire basis of civil law and moral authority with regard to the government in that, by accepting that crime and other civil disturbance will be the inevitable outcome of not redistributing wealth, in is effectively paying its own citizens to not engage in criminal activity, thereby implicitly stating that its law is neither objective nor enforceable depending on one's state in life.


    Catholic social justice permits welfare to the poor from the Church and state because it unites social order within society instead of societal antagonism. If one would follow the liberal doctrine the worker would live in misery under it because for one thing, liberalism denies nation and race, and instead promotes a global marketplace where the businessman can get labor wherever he wants. Global capitalism promotes women in the labor force and other anti-family policies, destroying the family. Now obviously property rights must be protected however that does not mean a market should be dominated by huge corporations.

    Quote
    re a Marxist, whatever label you apply to yourself.  The only difference is that the gunpoint theft that you encourage politically is done in the name of God instead of the State.


    If I am a Marxist you are a liberal and capitalist. Marxism denies the reality of nation and race and supports an international workers' movement. Marxism is international and hates nationalism. So does liberalism as well.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    « Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 07:20:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." - Karl Marx

    I'll post it as many times as necessary till it sinks in.


    Sorry to spoil your liberal mindset of feminism but the State has the duty and obligation to promote the family. Marxism is also anti-family. The State has the duty to encourage businesses to pay a higher wage.

    Offline JohnGrey

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    I hate the whole social stigma that comes with welfare...
    « Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 07:34:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Since you obsess over Karl Marx here are some famous liberals to quote right back at you:


    Nothing that I'm saying echoes the statements of those people that you quoted.  Your assertion that your station in life, rather than your ability and specialization, should determine what you're paid for a job is directly correlative to Marx's doctrine.  But, naturally, you don't concern yourself with denying my assertion.

    Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Obviously within the nation there should be no class antagonism, which Marxism supports, however class peace and harmony can only be done when social justice is put in its place. Your form of "Statism" would make every government from Athens to the France of the Sun King to be "unsuccessful socities."


    The fact that neither exists should be a fairly strong indication that they were, as a matter of historical fact, unsuccessful.  The creation of direct democracy among the Greek city-states is the progenitor of the godless republic in which we currently live, in that it tacitly accepts that civil morality, and by extension individual morality, is subordinate to the will of people at a given time and is therefore subjective.  Likewise, the profligate spending of Louis XIV set the tone for the State expenditures that would inflame the people to such a degree that they would follow madmen like Robespierre.  His expenditures to the relief of French poverty were not for the virtue of charity but for the political expedience in avoiding civil war.

    Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Catholic social justice permits welfare to the poor from the Church and state because it unites social order within society instead of societal antagonism. If one would follow the liberal doctrine the worker would live in misery under it because for one thing, liberalism denioes nation and race, and instead promotes a global marketplace where the businessman can get labor wherever he wants. Global capitalism promotes women in the labor force and other anti-family policies, destroying the family. Now obviously property rightsd must be protected however that does not mean a market should be dominated by huge corporations.


    The enforcement of largesse in the form of charity, cannot justly, and must not as a matter of policy or practice, become the province of the civil state, and most especially where that civil state suffers the tyranny of democracy.  The inevitable outcome is a class of professional voters and the establishment of a welfare state that strangles all right of personal property and every ounce of productivity.  Which is, incidentally, what has happened to this godless nation.

    Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    If I am a Marxist you are a liberal and capitalist. Marxism denies the reality of nation and race and supports an international workers' movement. Marxism is international and hates nationalism. So does liberalism as well.


    In calling me a liberal and a capitalist, you're certainly half-right.  Which is less than the twice-correct broken clock, but one must be grateful for what one can get.

     

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