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Author Topic: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?  (Read 665 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
« on: December 31, 2020, 10:33:27 PM »
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  • Joe Catholic is an 18-year-old man embarking on life.
    Should Joe

    A:
    Immediately leave the "mainstream" Conciliar Church milieu and become Traditional Catholic. In this state of obscurity and opposition from the World, he reads lots of pre-Vatican II books, listens to recordings of Trad clergy from the past 50 years, frequently attends the Tridentine Mass and the Sacraments, socializes with, volunteers, and helps others in the Trad world, attends a Trad seminary for a few years (even if he doesn't end up getting ordained), and generally becomes wise and knowledgeable about the Catholic Faith as it always was taught.

    or

    B.
    He "goes with the flow". In this state of mainstream acceptance and while the World smiles on him, he attends the Novus Ordo for 15 years, goes to a modern Catholic university, gets a PhD and all kinds of other non-Traditional laurels and certifications -- then enters the Trad world much later (after age 40) and quickly rises to the top place of prominence due to his PhD and other laurels, which came ONLY from staying in the Novus Ordo for so many years.

    Which is better for the world? Which is better for existing Trads? Which is better for Joe? Which of these paths do you suppose is more pleasing to God?

    Discuss.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #1 on: December 31, 2020, 10:36:44 PM »
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  • My first thought is, it depends on what Joe's TRUE motivation is.

    If his goal is to know, love and serve God and save his soul, then A is the only option.

    But if he's really after worldly glory, comfort, fame, etc. using Tradition as a mere vehicle to get there, then B is the clear winner.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #2 on: January 01, 2021, 02:30:38 AM »
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  • In many places there is not necessarily a choice for Joe Catholic to make between A and B.

    For example when we were raising our children there was no choice to be made. This goes both for remote areas in the developed world and in at least some (many?) mission lands. In which case A cannot be the only option to save his soul.

    Not every non-traditional (for want of a better word) is after worldly glory, comfort, fame, etc. but simply living a life aimed at doing what he knows.

    The traditional world is a very small select exceptional part of the real life world as lived by Catholics. That is my experience. Even to this day I do not have any close connections with any traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholicism is little more than a memory in practice.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #3 on: January 01, 2021, 07:32:08 AM »
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  • I believe Taylor Marshall took the wrong path, if that's what you're asking, and obviously anyone who chooses B over A has made the wrong choice. But we don't know who has or hasn't actually made that choice. Not everyone who comes to Tradition at 40 had already realised, or at least had some inkling, that is was correct at 18. I'd wager most NO 18 year old are almost completely unaware of the existence of Traditional Catholicism, besides the smells-and-bells variants in the FSSP and the like. Was Taylor? I don't know. It's something to consider though. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #4 on: January 01, 2021, 08:24:52 AM »
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  • I believe Taylor Marshall took the wrong path
    Hey, you said it, not me! I didn't mention his name once. Does that describe him to a T or something? Maybe you're right. ;)
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #5 on: January 01, 2021, 08:27:37 AM »
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  • In many places there is not necessarily a choice for Joe Catholic to make between A and B.

    For example when we were raising our children there was no choice to be made. This goes both for remote areas in the developed world and in at least some (many?) mission lands. In which case A cannot be the only option to save his soul.

    Not every non-traditional (for want of a better word) is after worldly glory, comfort, fame, etc. but simply living a life aimed at doing what he knows.

    The traditional world is a very small select exceptional part of the real life world as lived by Catholics. That is my experience. Even to this day I do not have any close connections with any traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholicism is little more than a memory in practice.

    You're confusing "being Traditional Catholic" with "going to a Traditional Mass chapel".

    You can be Traditional Catholic in a cabin in the middle of the Alaskan bush. You won't be attending Mass ever, but you can still be Trad. Being aloof from the Conciliar religion, wary and aloof of The World and all things worldly, adhering to pre-V2 morality (no birth control, etc.), No meat on Friday, saying the Rosary, rejecting Modernism, reading pre-Vatican II Catholic books -- basically practicing the true religion as Catholics did before Vatican II. That's what I'm talking about.

    It's about your position, not where you physically go to Mass. There are a ton of Trads right now with no good place to go to Mass, for those who rule out SSPX.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #6 on: January 01, 2021, 08:32:30 AM »
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  • You did find one flaw in my hypothetical -- the possibility that Joe Catholic didn't know about Tradition at age 18. He could theoretically choose between those 2 paths, but only if he knows about them both and makes a conscious choice.

    But even if he didn't know about Tradition, some of the questions would still apply. You would indeed have to rule out the whole guilt/blame element (i.e., God will forgive, Man will sometimes forgive) but you still have the "Nature never forgives" element -- there will still be consequences for himself and others because of his OBJECTIVELY BAD "choice" -- his going down path B.

    So, in cases where Joe doesn't know any better (and is blameless for his part, because of invincible ignorance about Tradition):

    Which is better for the world? Which is better for existing Trads? Which is better for Joe? Which of these paths do you suppose is more pleasing to God?
    Which is better for Joe, objectively speaking, even though there is no question of sin or bad will?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #7 on: January 01, 2021, 09:04:27 AM »
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  • Which is better for the world? Which is better for existing Trads?
    Which is better for Joe, objectively speaking, even though there is no question of sin or bad will?
    I think it would be obvious to everyone here that A. is the only correct answer.

    The longer one lives their life accepting heresy and error as truth, the longer it usually takes to purge the errors out of their mind. As such, they sometimes tend to cling to and / or mix some of the errors of their past in with their newfound truth, this often lasts for many years.

    This is one reason I really pay no attention at all to Taylor Marshall, I don't know what he looks like or what he says, but for me, in my travels, I have found the above to be quite common among converts to tradition on the internet.        
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #8 on: January 01, 2021, 03:58:13 PM »
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  • You're confusing "being Traditional Catholic" with "going to a Traditional Mass chapel".

    You can be Traditional Catholic in a cabin in the middle of the Alaskan bush. You won't be attending Mass ever, but you can still be Trad. Being aloof from the Conciliar religion, wary and aloof of The World and all things worldly, adhering to pre-V2 morality (no birth control, etc.), No meat on Friday, saying the Rosary, rejecting Modernism, reading pre-Vatican II Catholic books -- basically practicing the true religion as Catholics did before Vatican II. That's what I'm talking about.

    It's about your position, not where you physically go to Mass. There are a ton of Trads right now with no good place to go to Mass, for those who rule out SSPX.
    No, I am not confusing anything.
    You have described us almost to a T.

    But the point is that most souls don’t know what I know, have never experienced anything like the so-called trad world, and have no chance of ever experiencing it.

    As I have said several times on CathInfo I don’t think of myself as a trad, merely as Catholic. Always have been and always will be, by God’s grace.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #9 on: January 01, 2021, 09:19:22 PM »
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  • You did find one flaw in my hypothetical -- the possibility that Joe Catholic didn't know about Tradition at age 18. He could theoretically choose between those 2 paths, but only if he knows about them both and makes a conscious choice.

    But even if he didn't know about Tradition, some of the questions would still apply. You would indeed have to rule out the whole guilt/blame element (i.e., God will forgive, Man will sometimes forgive) but you still have the "Nature never forgives" element -- there will still be consequences for himself and others because of his OBJECTIVELY BAD "choice" -- his going down path B.

    So, in cases where Joe doesn't know any better (and is blameless for his part, because of invincible ignorance about Tradition):
    This is exactly why the hypothetical does not apply to Taylor Marshall or any other Joe Catholic who has not been blessed with the grace of being born into the fullness of the Faith.


    We are all works in progress.


    Those who were born into tradition have been so greatly blessed that instead of throwing stones at others who are on the path toward the fullness of the faith, they should be on their knees thanking God for the great grace given to them.


    To whom has been given much, much is expected.


    The rest of us lesser beings just shlep along, depending on God and doing the best we can. And thanking Him that, though we may have come to the fullness of tradition late, we made it.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #10 on: January 01, 2021, 09:57:43 PM »
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  • No, I am not confusing anything.
    You have described us almost to a T.

    But the point is that most souls don’t know what I know, have never experienced anything like the so-called trad world, and have no chance of ever experiencing it.

    As I have said several times on CathInfo I don’t think of myself as a trad, merely as Catholic. Always have been and always will be, by God’s grace.
    No matter how much they read, study, achieve, they will never know what we experienced first hand !
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #11 on: January 02, 2021, 01:23:41 AM »
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  • If Joe is sincerely seeking God, then neither A nor B is better.  If I have to assign myself a letter, then I belong in B.  I had never heard of Traditional Catholicism until I was 48.  The part about degrees and worldly exposure resulting in rapid promotion in the Trad World is certainly untrue of me.  When my former SSPX chapel was thinking of opening a school, I wasn’t even considered for a teaching position despite two graduate degrees, 19 year's experience, and certification in three specialities in four different states.  My educational background and the fact that I was born and raised in that big, wicked city of New York made me a most dangerous and unworthy candidate.  Being a lifelong single, no children, and no vocation to the religious life also rendered me suspect.  During a discussion of the proposed school after Mass, in which one woman expressed surprise that I had not been approached by the priest as a potential teacher, the father of a large family casually commented to me, “No father wants his daughters to turn out like you.”   
    Um, thanks for the compliment?  It’s good to know exactly where I stand.  💩
    In this respect, I guess Joe A is better off.  
    As for Taylor Marshall, I’m not sure I know who he is.  I have no interest in so-called celebrities, even if they are Traditional Catholics.  By the context in which he is referred, I assume he is a Joe B who rose quickly through some aspect of the Trad world by means of his pre-conversion achievements.  If that is God’s Will for him, terrific!  If he’s tooting his own horn to win popularity or worse, because he’s greedy for money, well, that’s just sad.  Then I choose Joe A all the way.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #12 on: January 02, 2021, 05:09:30 AM »
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  • This is exactly why the hypothetical does not apply to Taylor Marshall or any other Joe Catholic who has not been blessed with the grace of being born into the fullness of the Faith.


    We are all works in progress.


    Those who were born into tradition have been so greatly blessed that instead of throwing stones at others who are on the path toward the fullness of the faith, they should be on their knees thanking God for the great grace given to them.


    To whom has been given much, much is expected.


    The rest of us lesser beings just shlep along, depending on God and doing the best we can. And thanking Him that, though we may have come to the fullness of tradition late, we made it.
    What a beautiful post! And Nadir's as well!

    But I think the point that's being lost is that in a nutshell, this Taylor Marshall fellow, who himself should be a follower, has gained himself a lot of followers through what basically sounds like a type of blatant plagiarism, *and* he is making a lot of money from it.

    I've never heard him and have no desire to listen to him, but I can say without ever having listened to him that those who do listen to him should do so exercising caution for the simple reason that having embraced NO errors as truth for his whole life, and because he is new to the truth, it is reasonable to expect some of those NO errors to come out in some of his talks. That's really all there is to it. The reason I bring this point up, is because I've seen it repeated many times in the last 50+ years.
         
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #13 on: January 02, 2021, 05:16:48 AM »
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  • If Joe is sincerely seeking God, then neither A nor B is better.  If I have to assign myself a letter, then I belong in B.  I had never heard of Traditional Catholicism until I was 48.  The part about degrees and worldly exposure resulting in rapid promotion in the Trad World is certainly untrue of me.  When my former SSPX chapel was thinking of opening a school, I wasn’t even considered for a teaching position despite two graduate degrees, 19 year's experience, and certification in three specialities in four different states.  My educational background and the fact that I was born and raised in that big, wicked city of New York made me a most dangerous and unworthy candidate.  Being a lifelong single, no children, and no vocation to the religious life also rendered me suspect.  During a discussion of the proposed school after Mass, in which one woman expressed surprise that I had not been approached by the priest as a potential teacher, the father of a large family casually commented to me, “No father wants his daughters to turn out like you.”  
    Um, thanks for the compliment?  It’s good to know exactly where I stand.  💩
    In this respect, I guess Joe A is better off.  
    As for Taylor Marshall, I’m not sure I know who he is.  I have no interest in so-called celebrities, even if they are Traditional Catholics.  By the context in which he is referred, I assume he is a Joe B who rose quickly through some aspect of the Trad world by means of his pre-conversion achievements.  If that is God’s Will for him, terrific!  If he’s tooting his own horn to win popularity or worse, because he’s greedy for money, well, that’s just sad.  Then I choose Joe A all the way.
    I, like a lot of others, could go on and on about the stupidity of some "trads" but IMO, they should have *at least* put you high on the list of potential considerations. And yes, he sounds like a Joe B to me as well. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Hypothetical - what path should Joe take?
    « Reply #14 on: January 02, 2021, 07:00:18 PM »
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  • ... those who do listen to him should do so exercising caution for the simple reason that having embraced NO errors as truth for his whole life, and because he is new to the truth, it is reasonable to expect some of those NO errors to come out in some of his talks.

    He wasn't NO his entire life. He is a convert to catholicism of the conservative latin mass type.