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Author Topic: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel  (Read 16750 times)

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Offline Vintagewife3

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Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
« Reply #120 on: July 03, 2018, 02:21:37 PM »
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    • I can see why people are reacting harshly to Croix de fer, and he can come across rather harshly. That being said the accusations should stop against him. It just makes the whole thing childish. You all have to admit his views, and points have stirred quite a bit of thought provoking discussions. I’ve spent the better part of the last two days talking to my husband about his opinion, and what he thought of us. It’s opening doors for us.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #121 on: July 03, 2018, 02:34:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 03, 2018, 07:06:23 AM
    I'm really not sure what you're debating here. 
    You suggested that dowry's don't exist today and my point was that they do often occur despite not being called a dowry. When I married, I had money for a down payment on a house, a newish, paid-for vehicle, furniture & household items. I had a small student loan, but I also had the money to pay it off and just chose not to due to the interest being so low. This all sounds like I worked for a long time, but I had only worked 2.5 years and married only 9 months after meeting Matthew.
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    I'm not the only female I know who owned more than their spouse before they married.
    .
    What your potential spouse has been doing with their time past high school is part of choosing a good partner. If they've chosen poorly in this area, that's a good indication of their overall ability to make good decisions in life. I certainly didn't fault Matthew for not owning much of anything when I knew that he'd spent his time and what money he'd previously earned on exploring a vocation. That's more valuable than all the stuff I had!
    .
    Looking for dowry from your potential wife is pretty good idea, just don't suggest that this doesn't already happen in many cases ... or that it's inherently the most desirable asset she could bring to the marriage. If she's spent a few years in a convent and decided that she'd rather be raising a family, that's probably going to be much more valuable than any money should could have made during that time.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #122 on: July 03, 2018, 02:41:08 PM »
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    • Yes, and we're still driving that very practical vehicle today, even though we've been married for 13 years. Just think of all the money that saved us when we were starting out: a monthly car payment (principal & interest), plus we could downgrade to liability insurance rather than "full coverage" which the bank demands if they still own your vehicle.

    And note that my wife chose a very practical vehicle, it's considered a small SUV -- a PT Cruiser, if you must know -- with a nice big backseat that fits 3 kids. We used that for our family vehicle for years.

    I would like to repeat that it's important for single people to be PRACTICAL during their single years -- don't just blow and party away all your single person money. Think ahead, start a household, live on your own, save up, get a nice car paid off -- there are useful things you can do while looking for that suitable spouse.

    And you should look for such practicality in your future spouse. It's a sign of maturity, and what you can expect from them once you're married. If they are careless with money before marriage, guess how they will be after marriage? People don't change much.

    If you marry a girl (or guy) because they're cute, because they're fun -- don't complain when they are lousy at providing, or lousy at keeping the household running financially.

    Think of all the women that gravitate to the "bad boy" who drives a motorcycle, rebels against authority, etc. Is that motorcycle enthusiast really going to be a better husband, spiritual leader of the family, father, and provider than the bookworm who excels only at white collar tasks? I seriously doubt it. It's almost a scientific fact that many women are attracted to scoundrels and jerks, at least on a base carnal level. That is to say, despite themselves. Just like many men are attracted to helpless, dumb airheads and women who have nothing going for them other than their looks -- again, despite themselves.

    If both men AND women don't rise above these base attractions, and let their Catholic head do the thinking, rather than baser parts of the body -- the marriage will be a disaster.

    I bet almost 100% of "bad marriages" were completely consensual -- no shotgun or coersion was involved. One or both of the couple was simply blind, didn't know what to look for -- and chose very poorly.
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #123 on: July 03, 2018, 03:14:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 03, 2018, 01:37:07 PM

    He didn't deny that he is under his parents authority. But if he is, his parents are not doing a very good job of parenting.

    That being said, you're right in that he doesn't have to respond. That's fine. I have to wonder, though, how he treats the women in his family - especially his mother. You will, of course be appalled that I would say such a thing, as you are so often appalled by what I write. But whatever.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #124 on: July 03, 2018, 03:14:50 PM »
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    • I suppose in our day and age the dowry could come directly from the wife, based on her having worked and saved, but historically, the dowry came from THE WIFE'S PARENTS, as her share of the inheritance, so to speak.  With the economy being what it is, and most folks barely scraping by for the last 60-70 years, I can understand why dowrys went away here in the US.  But, that's not to say that they aren't financially do-able.  I know a few families of wives, who told the engaged couple, "Ok, I'm contributing x to the wedding.  Do you want to spend it all on the party (which they were advised not to), or do you want to use some for the honeymoon and some to buy a house."  In this way, the money was sort of a dowry and not wasted on the wedding reception.  And the couple's eyes were opened as to how much a reception cost.

    Basically, if the wife worked before marriage, she should have $ saved up.  This shouldn't replace the dowry, which is an obligation from the wife's parents (historically).
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #125 on: July 03, 2018, 03:19:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 03, 2018, 03:14:50 PM
    I suppose in our day and age the dowry could come directly from the wife, based on her having worked and saved, but historically, the dowry came from THE WIFE'S PARENTS, as her share of the inheritance, so to speak.

    Considering I have 6 girls, and I'm not rich, I hope my future sons-in-law are looking for a good old fashioned backyard type reception...hahaha

    Seriously though -- no one needs to rent a DJ to play suggestive and worldly music. Nor do they need to pay for overpriced catering. And why would anyone step into a whole different economic bracket for a wedding reception? For example, a fancy dinner proper for rich people, when the family is middle class? Or a middle class catered meal when the family is poor?
    That's just stupid. No one is comfortable, and money is wasted.

    And coming back to what I said earlier -- if you know someone with land (like the bride's parents, for example), you can host the reception there and save a lot of money. Depending on the land, it could actually be quite beautiful, natural, special, etc.!

    We could have a bonfire for example, light fireworks, do a hayride around the yard, etc.

    That's the other thing: doing a more old-fashioned reception on private land accommodates children, which should be a consideration for most families. What percent of couples are barren. Can we agree that it's not the majority? (if we're talking about Traditional Catholics at least) How artificial is it to send your kids to a babysitter, so you can go celebrate with "parts of" the extended family because someone is getting married? Why not celebrate with the WHOLE family, if a celebration is called for?

    I would actually prefer fried chicken (about $7) to most expensive dinners I've seen/had.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #126 on: July 03, 2018, 03:23:54 PM »
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    • The most enjoyable weddings/graduation parties i've ever been to were thrown at someone's house, who had some land.  The party was able to be both intimate and spread out.  Plenty of room for games and activities.  It's always a blast!  

    I agree, food is food.  You eat it, it's over with.  No one talks about a meal they had 10 years ago (unless they're an extreme foodie), but you remember the people you ate it with and the experience and the fun atmosphere.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #127 on: July 03, 2018, 03:30:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 03, 2018, 03:14:50 PM
    I suppose in our day and age the dowry could come directly from the wife, based on her having worked and saved, but historically, the dowry came from THE WIFE'S PARENTS, as her share of the inheritance, so to speak.  With the economy being what it is, and most folks barely scraping by for the last 60-70 years, I can understand why dowrys went away here in the US.  But, that's not to say that they aren't financially do-able.  I know a few families of wives, who told the engaged couple, "Ok, I'm contributing x to the wedding.  Do you want to spend it all on the party (which they were advised not to), or do you want to use some for the honeymoon and some to buy a house."  In this way, the money was sort of a dowry and not wasted on the wedding reception.  And the couple's eyes were opened as to how much a reception cost.

    Basically, if the wife worked before marriage, she should have $ saved up.  This shouldn't replace the dowry, which is an obligation from the wife's parents (historically).
    It's a nice ideal, but now you've made a difficult task (finding a good wife who agrees with your POV) into a nearly impossible task (finding a good wife who agrees with your POV ... who also has an extended family that agree with your POV and has the funds to live up to it). Those back yard weddings would max us out, no way we'd have any more than that whether we agreed with your ideals or not.
    .
    When you're looking for a dowry from your in-laws, you'd also better be ready to convince them that you're a good pick for their daughter. I don't know many men interested in doing that.
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    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #128 on: July 03, 2018, 03:33:06 PM »
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    • Another question, what if neither the future wife, or wife’s family could afford such a thing at all? I came from an extremely poor background, and worked part time min-wage to afford necessities for me. 
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #129 on: July 03, 2018, 03:47:48 PM »
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    • Also, to all those single guys who like to have their cake and eat it too, you don't get to have American-style independence ("I don't have to ask no man permission for his daughter's hand in marriage!") and old-world style dowrys at the same time.

    When dowrys were customary, it was also required to ask a man's permission to court/marry his daughter. They go together. They are a package deal.

    Some people just want all the good parts and none of the bad parts. That's called being selfish and irresponsible.

    I'd like the free time of an unemployed man, the energy and health of a 20 year old man, the resources of a rich man, and the stress of a retired man. What would someone tell me? "Keep dreaming!"
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #130 on: July 03, 2018, 04:12:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: MaterDominici on July 03, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
    Quote from: MaterDomenici on Wed Jul 04 2018 05:34:48 GMT+1000 (Australian Eastern Standard Time)

    I'm not the only female I know who owned more than their spouse before they married.
    There's no need to feel alone in this, Mater.

    Quote
    Quote from: Matthew
    a good old fashioned backyard type reception...hahaha
    Ours was in the back room at my parent's home.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #131 on: July 03, 2018, 04:17:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on July 03, 2018, 03:19:55 PM
    Considering I have 6 girls, and I'm not rich, I hope my future sons-in-law are looking for a good old fashioned backyard type reception...hahaha

    Seriously though -- no one needs to rent a DJ to play suggestive and worldly music. Nor do they need to pay for overpriced catering. And why would anyone step into a whole different economic bracket for a wedding reception? For example, a fancy dinner proper for rich people, when the family is middle class? Or a middle class catered meal when the family is poor?
    That's just stupid. No one is comfortable, and money is wasted.

    And coming back to what I said earlier -- if you know someone with land (like the bride's parents, for example), you can host the reception there and save a lot of money. Depending on the land, it could actually be quite beautiful, natural, special, etc.!

    We could have a bonfire for example, light fireworks, do a hayride around the yard, etc.

    That's the other thing: doing a more old-fashioned reception on private land accommodates children, which should be a consideration for most families. What percent of couples are barren. Can we agree that it's not the majority? (if we're talking about Traditional Catholics at least) How artificial is it to send your kids to a babysitter, so you can go celebrate with "parts of" the extended family because someone is getting married? Why not celebrate with the WHOLE family, if a celebration is called for?

    I would actually prefer fried chicken (about $7) to most expensive dinners I've seen/had.
    We did a wedding much like this for our second daughter.  We even did the meal as a pot luck, so we weren't providing all the food.  Everyone had a wonderful time.
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #132 on: July 03, 2018, 04:28:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on July 01, 2018, 12:45:24 AM
    There was once a time when the Church was living Holy Tradition, but Vatican II happened. If Vatican II can happen to the Bride of Christ, then trad Catholic women can be infected with the world, thus turn on her husband and try to take everything he built and earned. Didn't Newchurch, through Vatican II, take most, if not all, of the true Church's property and wealth? Yes, it did. Individual women are more easily corrupted than the Church. So why shouldn't a man get a prenup and avoid a marriage license to protect himself?

    Rockin' out Catholic truth and logic about "divorce" and the aftermath for men. Rockin' it out like no other...
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    Offline TxTrad

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #133 on: July 03, 2018, 05:18:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 03, 2018, 04:17:27 PM
    We did a wedding much like this for our second daughter.  We even did the meal as a pot luck, so we weren't providing all the food.  Everyone had a wonderful time.
    I could not imagine doing a pot luck wedding and still expect gifts for the newlyweds.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel
    « Reply #134 on: July 03, 2018, 05:26:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: TxTrad on July 03, 2018, 05:18:37 PM
    I could not imagine doing a pot luck wedding and still expect gifts for the newlyweds.
    They did the pot luck instead of gifts.  The were in circuмstances where they did not need household items.
    I've started a "hope chest" (that's what it used to be called) for my youngest daughter, collecting dishes, etc. for her, so they will be available when she starts a household of her own.
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