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Author Topic: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himsel  (Read 16763 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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God loves us and will take good care of us if we are of good will,
TxTrad, a good willed person wouldn’t initiate divorce, steal children and destroy a family, would they?  Obviously not!!  So all your talk is irrelevant to the scenario!  We’re not talking about someone with good will!

Offline MaterDominici

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TxTrad, a good willed person wouldn’t initiate divorce, steal children and destroy a family, would they?  Obviously not!!  So all your talk is irrelevant to the scenario!  We’re not talking about someone with good will!
Read it again. She's talking about the spouse who is of good will. It's certainly relevant that excessive concern about what trials may come your way in life is unnecessary. Everyone has them; for some, they take the shape of a bad-willed spouse.


Offline MaterDominici

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If the husband saves $200,000  and the wife saves 1/4 of that at $50,000, during their marriage, and then "divorce" occurs, the wife shouldn't get $75,000 of what the man contributed as to effect an equal payout. The prenup should protect the man against this unjust redistribution. 
I'd like you to elaborate on how exactly you're going to determine this payout. But, I must disclose that my interest is for entertainment purposes only.  :popcorn:

Online Pax Vobis

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Yes, I misread because originally she was talking about how prayer can change anyone and that's true, except for free will.  God does not intervene in human decisions, because He will not, and cannot, thwart free will.  Her follow up post was "God will take care of good willed people."  Ok? ?  But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about...

Online Pax Vobis

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I'd like you to elaborate on how exactly you're going to determine this payout.
I don't have a detailed prenup in front of me, so I can't answer that.  My point is, if one of the spouses is screwed during divorce, the assets they "brought to the table" should be somehow protected from the unjust courts.  If you want to be fair, only the assets which the spouses purchased, worked or built TOGETHER should be shared.

Secondly, a wife USED TO bring a dowry to the marriage, in the form of $, as an understanding that this was her contribution to the marriage, considering that it's assumed the husband has a job and plan for living arrangements, as is his duty.  It was a recognition that a woman cannot expect to be taken care of, for life, if she didn't contribute more than her good looks and charming personality.  But in our modern world, the idea of a dowry is anti-feministic, and "outdated" even though, from a catholic perspective it was considered JUST and FAIR for CENTURIES.  The reasons for a dowry are many, but most simply, it is a recognition that marriage, in its most basic order, is a social contract whereby two individuals agree to raise a family, for the good of society/church and their mutual good as well.  Inherent in the idea of ALL contracts is the basic legal requirement that individuals 1) make an agreement, 2) for a set amount of time, and 3) in exchange for "consideration" (i.e. a legal term which means: assets, promises, obligations).

Just because marriage is a religious contract does not negate the social and legal aspects of the contract.  The social aspect is the responsibility of the couple to raise good children who have a duty to love their country, take care of their extended relatives and help make their state/nation a better place.  It's also, foundationally, to grow the human race.

The legal aspect is related to the exchange of "consideration" (i.e. what do the spouses get from the marriage?).  Consideration is not some vague, religious, spiritual or sentimental concept of love, because such things cannot be quantified legally.  Consideration must be a concrete exchange of value, which is why a dowry was (and still should be) part of marriage.  (One can argue that the idea of the wife's family paying for the wedding is small remnant of the dowry concept, but it still falls short of its intended, and just, purpose).  

Nowadays, things are so crazy and feminized that women will come into marriage with tons of school debt, little to no savings, and expect their husbands to be in perfect financial shape so they can buy their dream home "...together"  (i.e. so her husband will buy it for her, because she has no ability to...the false Disney-feminist-romantic dream sold to most little girls).  This is another reason why catholic women who think they have a vocation to marriage, should NOT go to college, because it's a waste of $ and is not, in any way, a preparation of her future family (which she has a financial obligation to, whether she realizes it or not).  And many trad women have very little culinary, domestic or housekeeping skills - a further issue which makes married life more difficult and is not in keeping with her future vocation.  Finally (though there's much more to be said), the avg woman (and most people, really) are not taught to be thrifty, even if they have a job, but are marketed towards by businesses to buy things which aren't necessary, thus they often have poor spending habits when entering marriage and little to no understanding of the financial sacrifices which must be made when children come along.  This is a FURTHER stress on a young family.

Many of these problems affect women more than men, because women are, by nature, more easily corrupted AND (more importantly) society is focusing all their efforts on her corruption.  Women today have many, many enemies (both spiritual and temporal)!  The typical "defense" of a single woman is her family, and mostly her father/brothers, who are naturally more rational and wise to corruption.  But our western world has so infected everyone with feminism that even men can't see the dangers that lurk nor can they see the long term consequences of seemingly inconsequential decisions.  So women are encouraged to move out of the house and get an apartment, to go to college, to get a job, to spend like the rest of the US consumer spends (i.e. frivolously and stupidly, only thinking of the short term), with NO thought to what happens when marriage comes, or what her duties are, and what skills she would need.  

Again, without a dowry, what is the typical, modern woman contributing to the marriage, except school debt, a small savings account and a pretty face?  Where is the TRUE preparation for marriage, AS A VOCATION, by women?  Where is the preparation for marriage, even on a non-spiritual level (learning domestic skills, cooking, cleaning, etc)?  Where is there ANY financial preparation?  ...Most importantly...why aren't catholic parents teaching their children to look at life this way?  If a man thinks he has a priestly vocation, he studies/prepares for 6-7 years.  If a woman thinks she has a vocation to marriage, she hardly prepares at all.  She just spends her money on looking good, and maybe some spiritual preparation too, so that when Mr Right comes along, she'll learn the "house stuff" AFTER marriage.  THIS IS INSANE!  But it's the world we live in.  And it's just another (in a long list of problems) that feminism poses for men, as well as the young couple who gets married.  For these problems will cause stress, they will REQUIRE an adjustment period for the woman, and it will, overall, reduce her happiness (at least for a while) because being a 'stay at home' mother (if she chooses the ideal) will be a shock to her system, due to a lack of preparation.

(Certainly, much of this can apply to men too.  Many do not prepare for marriage adequately either.  But living by oneself, having a job and financial responsibility is a natural state for men to be in, and to experience.  None of these situations corrupt men for marriage; on the contrary, they are necessary for him to learn independence, autonomy and decision making, which is why those young men who live with their parents in their 20s-30s is a subversion, just like it is subversive for women to NOT live with their parents.  ...But my comments were mainly focused on women and feminism...)


Offline Carissima

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Pax you gave several poor examples of young girls with no proper upbringing as being the only likely option out there for marriage. Really?

I mean gosh, sounds like just a bunch of dumb bunnies out there might as well pack up and go home boys nothins’ left! 
:fryingpan:

Why don’t we instead encourage our brothers in Christ to pray for a suitable Catholic wife and let God handle the rest. 
And if and when she does show up, the road they take together in sickness and in health, for better or worse, with all of its crosses, is meant for the Sanctification of those souls living in that Marriage State. 
But, if she never materializes, then serving the Church in Chaste Virginity is a valid and higher calling anyways. 

So really all this constant talk of retaining earned assets in cases of extreme gold-digging divorce and government theft, is only serving the modernist mindset of heavy concerns for financial stability. 

Didn’t the Holy Family live in poverty their entire time here on earth? 
Do we have anywhere written a Saintly Couple with a record of this sort of marriage planning and divorce prep as an example for us modern, er I mean, Traditional Catholic pre-canas?
(Yes I know it is 2018 )

Everyone should read the book of Job, whether for the first time, or again as a reminder. 
He is a good example to all of us. 

Many times we should say with heartfelt gratitude:
‘The Lord giveth, and The Lord taketh away.’

Offline Croix de Fer

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I'd like you to elaborate on how exactly you're going to determine this payout. But, I must disclose that my interest is for entertainment purposes only.  :popcorn:

The payout is determined by what is dictated in the prenup that is obviously agreed to, and signed by, both man & wife before getting married.

Duh.

Offline Croix de Fer

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Married Catholics do not have ownership apart from their spouse. They join their assets together in marriage and work & earn together during their married life. Everything they both do is for the family, not for themselves.

To further elaborate on this wrong analysis, the husband is the head of the household. Only he should determine what is equitable within the family. It's not the wife's decision.

You're subtly trying use "Catholic piety" to infuse feminism and "equality" into the marriage.


Offline Croix de Fer

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You continue on with all your false non-Catholic premises.  You've spent too much time listening to the heretic.

"He" doesn't unilaterally own his income once he gets married and starts a family.

She is not "steal"-ing anything in insisting upon being able to continue supporting the children.

Says the Emasculated One who, also, says "God isn't a Catholic God".

See my comment to MaterDominici just prior to this response to you.

Using the courts to take almost everything from the man that he built and saved prior to the marriage, and even during the marriage, after a "divorce" filed by the woman isn't necessary to adequately support the children. Your thinking is absurd.


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False.  Another non-Catholic principle based on secular thinking.

Wrong. It's simply a defensive principle based on practical thinking and the inalienable right (which is Catholic since it comes from God) to self-preservation.

Please provide the Catholic sources that say it's "non-Catholic". Provide the canon or Catholic teaching that the man must give almost everything he built and saved to the wife when she "divorces" him under the pretext of "supporting the children".

Offline Vintagewife3

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I still get what you are saying, but I was under the impression that anything you bought before marriage always remained yours in a divorce? It was everything after that was up for debate.

The girls you are talking about are easy to weed out just by simple courting, asking the right questions, and by careful thinking. No one changes that much after marriage, and If they are wicked painted city women before they will be wicked after.

Personally, I think you need to spend some time with happily married people. Just so you can see it’s not as bad as you think. I obviously have a ton to learn about marriage roles, but the picture you paint is slightly unsettling. 

Offline TxTrad

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I still get what you are saying, but I was under the impression that anything you bought before marriage always remained yours in a divorce? It was everything after that was up for debate.

The girls you are talking about are easy to weed out just by simple courting, asking the right questions, and by careful thinking. No one changes that much after marriage, and If they are wicked painted city women before they will be wicked after.

Personally, I think you need to spend some time with happily married people. Just so you can see it’s not as bad as you think. I obviously have a ton to learn about marriage roles, but the picture you paint is slightly unsettling.
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You are absolutely right.  The problem most young men have, traditional included, is they look for exactly the girls they should NOT marry.  Either they don't know what to look for or they don't heed their parent's advice.
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My eldest daughter is having a hard time finding a decent young man because she makes too much money and all the traditional young men who want to court her turn out to be gold diggers.  She wants to get married, have a family, homeschool, cook, clean, etc.  She must wait for the Lord's direction.
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I understand the fears men may have.  Some women have the exact same fears.  And women also have fears of marrying an abuser.
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What it boils down to, that I see, is that both men and women must put trust in the Lord, learn to tune in to His frequency, and do what He wants.  He will never let you down.
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Have Faith that God will take care of you.  Consider the lillies...


Offline Vintagewife3

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You are absolutely right.  The problem most young men have, traditional included, is they look for exactly the girls they should NOT marry.  Either they don't know what to look for or they don't heed their parent's advice.
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My eldest daughter is having a hard time finding a decent young man because she makes too much money and all the traditional young men who want to court her turn out to be gold diggers.  She wants to get married, have a family, homeschool, cook, clean, etc.  She must wait for the Lord's direction.
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I understand the fears men may have.  Some women have the exact same fears.  And women also have fears of marrying an abuser.
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What it boils down to, that I see, is that both men and women must put trust in the Lord, learn to tune in to His frequency, and do what He wants.  He will never let you down.
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Have Faith that God will take care of you.  Consider the lillies...
I think a lot of men want to “tame” modernist girls, and it’s a shame because so many good read women get pushed aside while these men try to figure it out the hard way. Marriage can be quite scarey these days, but that’s were trust comes in. If you don’t trust the women you love enough not to rob you blind, or be frivolous with money no pre-nup is gonna save you.

Offline Croix de Fer

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There was once a time when the Church was living Holy Tradition, but Vatican II happened. If Vatican II can happen to the Bride of Christ, then trad Catholic women can be infected with the world, thus turn on her husband and try to take everything he built and earned. Didn't Newchurch, through Vatican II, take most, if not all, of the true Catholic Church's property and wealth? Yes, it did. Individual women are more easily corrupted than the Church. So why shouldn't a man get a prenup and avoid a marriage license to protect himself?

Rockin' out Catholic truth and logic about "divorce" and the aftermath for men. Rockin' it out like no other...

Offline Vintagewife3

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You should totally protect yourself, but your reasoning is off in the way you portray women. I would never have signed a pre-nup. Why? Because I would have felt that he was already looking for a way out, and that hurts. Marriage is until death do you part. So why are you worrying about a divorce? If the woman you found is a true catholic woman she will be loyal until the end. You just haven’t found a loyal supportive woman.

Offline Croix de Fer

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Because I would have felt that he was already looking for a way out, and that hurts.
illogical thinking

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Marriage is until death do you part. So why are you worrying about a divorce?
Tell that to the women, even Catholic women, "divorcing" their husbands and using the courts to steal everything he owns and built.

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If the woman you found is a true catholic woman she will be loyal until the end. You just haven’t found a loyal supportive woman.
You mustn't have read this:

"There was once a time when the Church was living Holy Tradition, but Vatican II happened. If Vatican II can happen to the Bride of Christ, then trad Catholic women can be infected with the world, thus turn on her husband and try to take everything he built and earned. Didn't Newchurch, through Vatican II, take most, if not all, of the true Catholic Church's property and wealth? Yes, it did. Individual women are more easily corrupted than the Church. So why shouldn't a man get a prenup and avoid a marriage license to protect himself?"