I'm talking about things that are a person's fault, as well as things that are NOT a person's fault.

Isn't it appropriate -- the virtue of humility -- to acknowledge both?

To say, "Yes, because of this and this (which I could maybe fix) and this and this (which I could no way ever fix) I am not perfect."

or

"Yes, for those reasons I am damaged goods."

It seems like people excuse themselves from BOTH types of imperfections. No one wants to have *anything* wrong with them or *any* dings against their complete perfection.

I'm talking de-facto, or how most people behave. There are few that would ever put this to words :)

Were men always this way? Maybe to some extent, but I think men of the past were more in touch with that wonderful old friend called reality.

While some may disagree, particularly those who think beating down the catholic church was good for the west and the world, I think we've definitely become more vain, than we used to be, because our culture has come to favor vanity over humility.  

Really, it comes down to Liberalism.

Liberalism wants everyone to be equal, and everything to be A-OK. It's "not fair" to say that a virgin bride is objectively "better" than the bride who lost her innocence at 15. Maybe the latter WANTED to, or made a smaller bad decision that led to things getting out of hand. We can't have people restraining themselves, now can we?

I'm sure most of us are familiar with the "gospel" of Liberalism.

Well, the trend of "owning" your mistakes doesn't help. Many use that, not in the sense of owning up/confessing but in the sense of OWNING -- this is ME, like it or leave it. When adopting that trend people recognize their faults but with pride as if it's a part of their identity that they are simply being "honest" about. If someone else doesn't like the fault or is harmed by it, too bad for them, cut them out of your life.

Like everything else there is a grain of truth to it, since we are obliged to love our neighbors despite their faults and marriage is one of the greatest reflections of this, and since humility requires us to be honest about our faults; but it doesn't release anyone from striving to correct their faults. The trend focuses so heavily on the first part that the latter part of being humbled by our mistakes and actually trying to improve is swept under the rug. So basically it's about what YOU owe ME, which is all the patience in the world, without me owing anything back, such as remorse or self-improvement.

"No regrets" -- one of my pet peeves of modern man's mottos. It builds a wall against feeling any regret or remorse for faults or mistakes. Not that people should always be crying in their cereal either, but there is a balance to be struck and modern philosophy teaches that remorse is a waste of time, which we know as Catholics that it is not. It is one of the greatest teachers.

I think people are much less humble and far more materialistic than in the past.  Having a college education, in my opinion is less about being "smart" too ... as it is in "keeping up with the Jones's."  My perception is that the vast majority of people go to college because (they believe) it's the ticket to money and status, a so-called better life than what they think they would have otherwise.  Time and again, the emphasis is on money and material comfort, not on true education.  And that, to me, ties into a lack of humility.  

My daughter was telling me about her interactions with the local Catholic youth group.  (We home-schooled our children btw).  All of these young people have gone through the public school system.  The majority are young women.  Every single one of them is off to some big deal university after taking AP classes and they ALL are majoring in impressive fields: medicine, science and engineering..A couple indicate they also might get a law degree. My daughter said she's getting tired of what she now sees as a socially acceptable form of boasting.  

It reminds me of reading an article in our diocesan newspaper.  It was about the continuing efforts of all involved to increase the participation of the laity in all of church life.  The facilitator said, "We are all called to be leaders."  That's ridiculous!  And it shows a complete lack of humility, imho

Yesterday I read in the "Imitation of Christ" that is was much better to feel contrition than to define it".

This is the confusing part for me; I cry at least once a week for my past sins, which I have confessed, and that action makes me feel that I am guilty of pride.  If anyone can explain that to me, I would appreciate it!   Just the fact of admitting this, I feel prideful.  

I'm not saying you are guilty of this because I don't know you well and crying over past sins is not necessarily prideful, but since you asked, it is possible to be prideful in our remorse for our sins if we are remorseful for the wrong reasons.

Do we sorrow for the offense against God and the scandal we have caused to others or do we sorrow for the fact that WE are not perfect?

The object of your thoughts goes a long way to define if the sorrow stems from pride or not. Is it all about YOU and YOUR sins, YOUR imperfection? Or is it about GOD and His Justice, His Mercy, His deserving of all our love?  

In our spiritual immaturity we often focus on ourselves and are agitated by the fact that we are not perfect and we FEEL sorrowful and humble about it, but in reality it is more humble simply to accept that we are not perfect and that we rely on God's grace alone in order to improve. That is the reality. So we have to balance regretting past sins while also accepting the simple truth that we are fallen creatures who sin yet are forgiven and must continually look forward and progress spiritually.  

Sometimes people also have difficulty accepting that they are forgiven. But there again you see a difference, they are focused on themselves and how unforgivable THEY are. Their thoughts are consumed with themselves and how great THEIR sins are rather than on God and His Mercy which is greater than themselves and their sins.

It can get tricky but an honest look at the reason WHY you cry, whether it's about God or about yourself, can help decipher whether it's a pure contrition or not.

Good answer wallflower. Pretty much what I think too. Although, you can't blame that individual for feeling that way. The spiritual journey is such that if you are not pushing forward, you will slide back. We need to trust in God.

Thank you Wallflower, that was a great post, thinking about myself I believe some of what you wrote I  see a little of both in myself.  

Most of what I wrote here started lately after my husband passed away, I think what I am doing is reliving my life prior to his passing, and wishing I could have done things better if I only knew then what I know now.  

Feeling sorry for myself has a lot to do with it.  

Yet I do feel great remorse because I have offended God, and if it were not for my sins, His Cross would have been so much lighter.  

I am going to print your post out and read it from time to time.  

This is very understandable. I don't know, not having experienced the loss of my spouse, but I imagine it is a normal part of the grieving process. There would be many thoughts and emotions to sort out and try to make sense of.

There is no hug emoticon but I would send you one if I could. :)