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Offline Matthew

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So Should We Just Round Up the Anti-Vaccine Parents And Ship Them to Guantanamo?
Jan. 30, 2015 11:00am
Matt Walsh

Wait. Don’t answer that. I’m afraid of what you might say.

I sat down to write a post about whether parents should be free to decide not to vaccinate their kids. But I was hesitant at first, not because I’m afraid of touching off a controversy, but because I doubted the need for this discussion. I mean, there can’t be that many people out there who literally equate not getting a vaccine to biological terrorism, and who believe that all parents should be compelled by the State to inject whatever vaccines the government demands, I thought. That’s a fringe notion. Extreme. Far out on the peripheral of the vaccine debate. This is America, for God’s sake, I said to myself.

I know, I know. I am a naive fool. I guess, in the crazy twist ending, it turns out I’m actually the hopeful optimist wearing rosy lenses. You didn’t see that coming, did you?

Evidently, Statist zealotry has gone mainstream. This post, tragically, isn’t as irrelevant as I’d hoped.

So let’s go over a few things here, but I want to start with a caveat:

CAVEAT: I am not an “anti-vaxxer” (but for some reason “vaxxer” does seem like a great alias for a Jєωel thief or maybe a computer hacker). My kids are vaccinated. They’re even vaccinated for the flu. We got the shot several days ago, and yesterday my son was back at the doctor’s office with a terrible cold, cough, and fever. We’ll talk more about that in a minute. But right now I need you to understand that I’m actually not arguing about whether your kid should have such-and-such vaccine. I’m not arguing about the vaccines themselves. As I’m constantly reminded, I’m not an expert. I’ve done some research, I’ve read some things, but I don’t exactly have my PhD in this field. And, most likely, neither do you. What I’m talking about here are our rights and our liberties, both as individuals and as parents. So go ahead, as many people have in the last day, and call me “anti-vaccine” or a “vaccine truther,” but then realize that you’re murdering the potential for a substantive discussion by, rather than engaging a point, simply categorizing it. And, in this case, categorizing it dishonestly. If I have to be “anti” or “pro” vaccines, I’m in the latter camp, seeing as how I chose to have my kids vaccinated. But I’m also pro-freedom, which makes me, perhaps, a man without a country in this particular argument.

Now, if you’re a silly, idealistic schmuck like me, and you doubt that the “unvaccinated-kids-are-biological-weapons-who-should-be-banned-from-public-spaces-while-their-parents-are-fined-or-arrested” view is especially predominant, let me clue you in. In fact, the first you thing you could do is broach the subject around a group of people and quickly discover your error. Or you could simply write the word “vaccines” with a question mark and post it to Facebook, then stand back and take cover. The mere hint that you might possibly question some aspects of some vaccines in some circuмstances will send many of your friends into a blind rage.

I experienced this myself when I wrote a few things on Twitter about how I believe parents shouldn’t be compelled in either direction when it comes to vaccines. I wasn’t even questioning vaccines themselves, just the validity and constitutionality of requiring them or punishing those who don’t get them. Admittedly, Twitter isn’t necessarily the best place for nuanced discussions, and only a few of the responses consisted of “I hope you die, motherf**ker” type sentiments, but I was still treated to an assortment of fallacious comebacks. And I discovered that a very large number of people, many of them ostensibly “small government conservatives” and even self-described libertarians, believe that choice should not play a role here at all.

They aren’t alone.

USA Today published a column recently that suggested all “anti-vaxx” parents should be put in prison. Of course Slate agrees. Forbes contested that parents who don’t vaccinate should be sued. A recent poll found that a majority of Americans believe vaccines should be forced, and a slightly smaller majority think unvaccinated kids should be banned from schools. The TV doctor on Fox News recently called on President Barack Obama to pass federal regulations mandating vaccines for all children.

In short, as we have seen time and time again, despite Ben Franklin’s urges to the contrary, many people will choose safety over liberty, no matter how slight the risk and how serious the infringement. But while they worry about a potential public health emergency, I worry that the Salem witch trial mentality has created a constitutional emergency.

Some will take issue with me calling it a “slight risk,” but it is slight. Even in Disneyland, ground zero of this measles outbreak, 95 have been infected out of the 15 million who’ve attended the park in the last year. And for those who contract the illness, it will almost assuredly not be fatal (yes, I know it can be, but I said almost because the fatality rate is so low). The risk is slight by every definition.

That’s one reason why you can’t compare unvaccinated kids with, say, a drunk driver — because the chances of killing someone while driving intoxicated are much, much, much, much greater than the chances of opting out of vaccine, becoming infected with a dangerous illness, then spreading that illness to another person who then dies.

Do you see how the two scenarios aren’t even close to similar? They’re not just dissimilar in probability, but in substance. When you get behind the wheel after downing a pint of vodka, you are immediately and directly endangering everyone around you. But an unvaccinated child isn’t a danger unless he’s sick, and even then it depends on what he’s sick with, and even then he isn’t the same degree of dangerous to everyone, considering that many of the people around him are fully vaccinated. So driving drunk is more equatable to declining vaccines so that your child will purposefully get sick so that you can intentionally release him into a public space where other unvaccinateds hang out so that you can willfully get them sick. This choice I would disagree with. In fact, it should be illegal. It probably already is. But if you can’t see how that bizarre scenario isn’t quite the same as the scenario of simply opting out of the vaccine to begin with, then there’s probably little hope of a reasonable discussion here.





Well at least nobody’s comparing unvaccinated kids to rapists and burglars.



Crap.

This is even worse than I thought.

I’ve heard over and over that choosing not to vaccinate your kids is akin to, if not drunk driving or rape, then a form of biological terrorism. You don’t have a right to not vaccinate for the same reason that you don’t have a right to set off a bomb in a shopping mall, they say. But, again, the decision to skip a vaccination is just a decision to skip a vaccination. The result of the decision is that your kid isn’t vaccinated. This is the first and direct consequence, and in many cases, the only. In order for this course of action to become a risk to you or your family, the unvaccinated (side note: someone should make a horror movie called “The Unvaccinated”) would have to contract the illness and subsequently pass it on to you through his saliva, blood, fecal matter, or whatever bodily fluid is required for that affliction.

To say that someone shouldn’t have a right to not vaccinate is not the same thing as saying they shouldn’t have a right to “put others in danger,” it’s the same thing as saying they shouldn’t have a right to do something that could, down the line, in some situations, given certain circuмstances, in the right conditions, assuming a variety of factors come into play, put you in danger. If that’s how you believe — if you believe that our liberties end where the possible potential of risk is present, given that the child is only an actual risk if he’s sick with a serious illness and if he comes in contact with your kid in a certain way — so be it.

But say so, and say so honestly. Don’t try to stuff your vaccine compulsion ideology under the same umbrella that allows the State to outlaw actions that are directly, inherently, immediately, and unreasonably dangerous to everyone in the vicinity. They aren’t the same. You have proposed that the government’s powers be extended beyond that realm, and I wish you’d at least have the courage to admit it.

But there’s another problem.

Even pro-vaccine-compulsion people (as opposed to just pro-vaccine people, like myself) admit that there are at least some circuмstances where not getting vaccinated would be the right course of action. Specifically, for a child who has cancer or is immunodeficient. This further separates non-vaccination from other “risky” behaviors, in that those other behaviors are intrinsically wrong and never OK, whereas even the most ardent folks in the pro-vaccine-compulsion camp (PVC) allow for exceptions. Quite magnanimous of them, isn’t it?

These exceptions bring up some questions.

First of all: if vaccines are forced or unvaccinated kids are treated like lepers, segregated in colonies and prohibited from schools and public facilities, would that apply to a child who has leukemia or who’s in some other vaccine-disqualifying situation? Taking vaccines out of it, children with compromised immune systems get sick more frequently, and because they get sick more frequently, they are a “risk” to those around them. What should the government do about them?

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And who decides what counts as an exception?

It seems odd that so many critics took umbrage to my anti-vaccine-compulsion position, telling me that their child can’t get vaccinated and relies on “herd immunity” to avoid getting sick, but don’t see that they should be on my side precisely because their child can’t get vaccinated. Do they really want the State, or the schools, or the angry pitchfork mob to decide whether their son or daughter should be granted a pass from the vaccine schedule? I’m advocating for their rights to do what’s right for their child. And I’m exhibiting the humility (a rare occurrence, so enjoy it while it lasts) to acknowledge that I am not in a position to decide who should have that right and who shouldn’t.

You can tell me about the “public safety measures” that should be taken in response to The Unvaccinated, and you can use the most radical and improbable justifications in your argument, but you have to confront the fact that these measures would need to include cancer-stricken children, or children with other ailments, because although it’s not their fault, they’re just as “dangerous,” aren’t they? Are you prepared for that? Are you prepared to bar even them from parks and schools? Do they get tossed in the Unvaccinated Leper Colony? If not, who does? Who decides? What qualifies as an acceptable excuse? Who decides what qualifies as an acceptable excuse? The State? The pharmaceutical industry? You?

And what vaccine schedule should they follow? Do they have any say in that at all? And while we’re dealing with these difficult quandaries, can we determine which vaccines ought to be legally mandatory? All of them?

My kids are vaccinated, but should I not have the right to decline even shots for sɛҳuąƖly transmitted diseases? Must it be legally mandatory that we get out infants immunized for HPV and Hepatitis B? What if they ever cook up an AIDS vaccine? Should every 6-month-old in the country be dragged to the doctor to receive it, even if we can easily avoid AIDS just by declining to participate in extremely risky behavior?

What about the flu?

The flu kills far more people than the measles, and it’s very contagious. Should it be required? Should the Non-Flu-Shot Kids be kicked out of class until they get that stuff injected into their bodies? Even if it’s ineffective? Should we all be required? I’ve never had a flu shot, should I be convicted of some kind of crime? As I said, my son got the shot recently. On Wednesday he was back at the doctor with a fever and respiratory problems. We were told that these were entirely unrelated, but I think next year we will be declining the procedure. I know it doesn’t protect against every strand of the flu, but this is a medical decision and a personal judgment call, and I am repulsed at the notion that I shouldn’t have the right to make it.

Indeed, judgment is the name of the game here. Even if the risks are small and the side effects rare, vaccines still carry them. My wife and I looked at it and decided we were willing to assume those risks, but should everyone be forced into it? And what if, in the rare case, someone does have a severe reaction to a vaccine? Who pays the price? Who pays for his medical treatment? Who assumes that cost? He’s just SOL, huh?

Yes, you might say, the risk is necessary for the sake of public safety.

And to that I answer, I’d rather be assuming risks for the sake of liberty.

This is America, isn’t it?
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Offline Matthew

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Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2015, 05:44:11 PM »
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  • I fear for the future. If this is what we have to deal with now, imagine in 20 years, or even 50 years! These people will be the majority who will write the laws.

    All vestiges of "freedom", the Bill of Rights, etc. will have been brainwashed out of everyone, and the "free" America we knew and loved will be only a memory.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #2 on: January 30, 2015, 06:14:32 PM »
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  • Thanks for the article, Matthew.  I wonder how many of these persecutors of anti-vaxxers are "pro-choice" when it comes to abortion.  I suspect a large  number think it's OK to kill your child but not to decide about his vaccines.

    Offline Matto

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 06:24:55 PM »
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  • I have come to the conclusion that nearly all Americans are hopelessly brainwashed by the media and the government. Of the rest, most are libertarians, and a small handful are traditional Catholics.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 07:42:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek
    Thanks for the article, Matthew.  I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers are "pro-choice" when it comes to abortion.  I suspect a large  number think it's OK to kill your child but not to decide about his vaccines.


    Aargh!  I meant the people who are opposed to anti-vaxxers are probably fine with abortion.


    Offline Matthew

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #5 on: January 30, 2015, 08:47:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Thanks for the article, Matthew.  I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers are "pro-choice" when it comes to abortion.  I suspect a large  number think it's OK to kill your child but not to decide about his vaccines.


    Aargh!  I meant the people who are opposed to anti-vaxxers are probably fine with abortion.


    FWIW, I knew what you meant -- anyhow I fixed your post a bit.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #6 on: January 30, 2015, 09:56:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Thanks for the article, Matthew.  I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers are "pro-choice" when it comes to abortion.  I suspect a large  number think it's OK to kill your child but not to decide about his vaccines.


    Aargh!  I meant the people who are opposed to anti-vaxxers are probably fine with abortion.


    Earlier this month he wrote a column called "You can Murder Your Child, but You Can't Make Medical Decisions for Her"

    http://themattwalshblog.com/2015/01/09/can-murder-child-cant-make-medical-decisions/
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Jaynek

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 03:59:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Thanks for the article, Matthew.  I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers are "pro-choice" when it comes to abortion.  I suspect a large  number think it's OK to kill your child but not to decide about his vaccines.


    Aargh!  I meant the people who are opposed to anti-vaxxers are probably fine with abortion.


    FWIW, I knew what you meant -- anyhow I fixed your post a bit.


    Thank you.  I felt so  :facepalm: for posting the opposite of what I meant.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 04:01:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Thanks for the article, Matthew.  I wonder how many of these anti-vaxxers are "pro-choice" when it comes to abortion.  I suspect a large  number think it's OK to kill your child but not to decide about his vaccines.


    Aargh!  I meant the people who are opposed to anti-vaxxers are probably fine with abortion.


    Earlier this month he wrote a column called "You can Murder Your Child, but You Can't Make Medical Decisions for Her"

    http://themattwalshblog.com/2015/01/09/can-murder-child-cant-make-medical-decisions/


    Yes, that's it exactly!

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 01:20:21 PM »
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  • The sane citizens that can comprehend what is going on are diffidently a minority.

     

    Offline Cera

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #10 on: February 01, 2015, 03:22:01 PM »
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  • Immunity From Evil?: Vaccines Derived from Abortion

        JAMESON T. TAYLOR

    While most parents are shocked to learn that their children have been injected with vaccines cultured on and containing residual components of aborted fetal tissue, anger turns to anxiety once physicians and school officials point out that the vaccines are necessary for children to attend school. Religious and philosophical exemptions are, however, available.
    Vaccine2.JPG

    "You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent Green is made of people!" Science fiction fans may recall the 1973 classic Soylent Green, in which a wily detective played by Charlton Heston reveals that government food rations foisted upon the starving masses are manufactured from human body parts.

    Discovering that several common vaccines are derived from baby body parts may not be quite as bad as eating Soylent Green, but for many pro-lifers it's a close second. While most parents are shocked to learn that their children have been injected with vaccines cultured on and containing residual components of aborted fetal tissue, anger turns to anxiety once physicians and school officials point out that the vaccines are necessary for children to attend school. Religious and philosophical exemptions are, however, available for those who cannot reconcile the use of these vaccines with either their Christian faith or firmly held moral belief in the sanctity of life.

    storyend_dingbat.gif

    Scandalous Origins

    In the United States, 10 different vaccines for chicken pox, hepatitis A, polio, rabies, and rubella are cultured on aborted tissue from two fetal cell lines known as WI-38 and MRC-5. These vaccines are Varivax (chicken pox), Havrix (hep-A), Vaqta (hep-A), Twinrix (hep-A/hep-B), Poliovax (polio), Imovax (rabies), Meruvax II (rubella), MR-VAX (measles/rubella), Biavax II (mumps/rubella), and MMR II (measles/mumps/rubella). Alternative, pro-life vaccines are available in this country for all but the chicken pox, hepatitis A, and rubella inoculations.

    The WI-38 "human-diploid" cell culture was developed in July 1962 from a "therapeutically aborted" three-month-old girl. "WI" is an acronym used by the Wistar Institute, an aggressive proponent of embryonic stem cell research. The August 1969 issue of the American Journal of Diseases of Children explains WI-38 was taken from a voluntary abortion performed in Sweden: "This fetus was chosen by Dr. Sven Gard, specifically for this purpose [use as a vaccine culture]. Both parents are known, and unfortunately for the story, they are married to each other, still alive and well, and living in Stockholm, presumably. The abortion was done because they felt they had too many children."

    MRC-5 is derived from the lung tissue of a 14-week-old baby boy. MRC stands for Medical Research Council, a research center funded by British taxpayers. According to Coriell Cell Repositories, "The MRC-5 cell line was developed in September 1966 from lung tissue taken from a 14-week fetus aborted for psychiatric reasons from a 27-year-old physically healthy woman."

    Development of the rubella vaccine actually involved not one, but 28 abortions. Twenty-seven abortions were performed to isolate the virus and one abortion (WI-38) to culture the vaccine. The vaccine's strain is called RA 27/3 (R=Rubella, A=Abortus, 27=27th fetus tested, 3=3rd tissue explanted). Rubella, or "German measles," is usually a harmless childhood disease. Ironically, rubella is most dangerous for preborn infants, who have a 20 to 25 percent chance of contracting congenital rubella syndrome if their mothers catch rubella during the first trimester. Scientists at the Wistar Institute took advantage of the 1964-65 rubella epidemic to legally acquire fetal tissue from at least 27 so-called therapeutic abortions conducted on women at risk for rubella. Since the live virus was not detected until the 27th abortion, the preceding 26 abortions were apparently performed on perfectly healthy babies. By contrast, Japanese researchers obtained a live virus by swabbing the throat of an infected child.

    storyend_dingbat.gif

    Cooperation with Abortion

    In ethical parlance, using vaccines manufactured from fetal tissue entails "material cooperation" with abortion. Material cooperation may or may not be sinful depending on the circuмstances surrounding the act. Four conditions determine whether using such vaccines is licit: the seriousness of the sin of abortion, the necessity of vaccination, the possibility of causing scandal, and the vaccines' role in encouraging additional abortions. Many pro-life ethicists believe using these vaccines constitutes "remote material cooperation" with abortion cooperation excused by the distance of the consumer from the original abortions, the necessity of vaccine use, and the unlikelihood that purchasing the vaccines will cause future abortions. In August 2001, the U.S. bishops issued a statement allowing that parents "when they have no practical alternative, may use vaccines to protect their health and the health of their loved ones without serious sin, even if the vaccines were cultured in fetal cells that ultimately came from an elective abortion." The bishops were forced to address the question when President Bush used the abortion-tainted chicken pox vaccine to justify federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.

    But "practical alternatives" do exist for these vaccines. No medical necessity requires the vaccines to be cultured on aborted fetal tissue. Safe and effective inoculations grown on animal cells or chick embryos are available for all but chicken pox, hepatitis A, and rubella diseases mild enough to allow for the acquisition of natural immunity. Eighty-five to 90 percent of children develop immunity to chicken pox and rubella by the sixth grade. Hepatitis A is almost completely unknown in the United States not because of the vaccine, which was introduced only in 1995 but as a result of public sanitation systems. In countries where hepatitis A is prevalent, 70 percent of preschoolers who contract the disease don't even exhibit symptoms. Most children's chances of being harmed by chicken pox, hepatitis A, or rubella are arguably equal to risks associated with adverse reactions to the vaccines themselves.

    Using abortion-tainted vaccines encourages abortion just as does purchasing any other product derived from fetal tissue. Indeed, these vaccines were the first fetal tissue therapies to gain widespread acceptance, and their popularity is frequently cited to promote fetal tissue research agendas. Over the past 10 years, numerous congressmen have referred to the vaccines to garner support for federally subsidized research on fetal tissue. The University of Nebraska likewise excused its fetal tissue program by invoking both the vaccines and the Church's toleration of their use. In Forbes v. Napolitano (2001), the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals used the polio vaccine, among other things, to strike down an Arizona law banning experimentation on aborted fetal tissue. The court specifically ruled fetal tissue research must be legal to guarantee women the fullest possible range of "reproductive decisions."

    storyend_dingbat.gif

    Your Rights as a Parent

    Many ethicists, including the bishops, believe these vaccines are distinguishable from other types of fetal tissue research because they "use self-perpetuating cell lines." The cultures that produce these vaccines, however, are not immortal. All normal cells possess a finite lifespan known as the "Hayflick limit." After about 50 divisions, WI-38 and MRC-5 will be exhausted. If, when this day comes, pharmaceutical companies know they can create new cultures from aborted tissue without loss of profit, they will certainly do so because aborted fetal tissue is easier to use and more economical to obtain than other culture mediums. The pharmaceutical industry, in fact, has already developed an additional vaccine culture derived from the "socially indicated," elective abortion of an 18-week-old baby. PER.C6, as the culture is called, is currently being tested for use with at least seven new vaccines.

    Absent definitive guidance from the Vatican, parents must determine for themselves after much prayer and study whether they can conscientiously use these vaccines. While most public and private schools require chicken pox and rubella immunizations, the courts have repeatedly affirmed that pro-lifers have a First Amendment right to refuse abortion-tainted vaccines. State public health officials and/or school administrators cannot lawfully second-guess sincere religious or moral objections to vaccine use. In addition to honoring parents' constitutional rights, Catholic school administrators must heed the Church's magisterial teaching regarding the inalienable right and duty of parents to make decisions affecting the welfare of their children.

    Parents who object in conscience to abortion-derived vaccines may apply for religious or philosophical exemptions by contacting their state department of health.

    Jameson Taylor. "Immunity From Evil?: Vaccines Derived from Abortion." Lay Witness (Jan/Feb. 2003).

    This article is reprinted with permission from Lay Witness magazine. Lay Witness is a publication of Catholic United for the Faith, Inc., an international lay apostolate founded in 1968 to support, defend, and advance the efforts of the teaching Church.
    The Author

    Jameson Taylor is a Ph.D. candidate in political philosophy at the University of Dallas. Mr. Taylor's work spans a broad range of topics including bioethics, personalist philosophy, life and family issues, and American politics. Mr. Taylor writes from Front Royal, VA, where he resides with his wife, Jennifer. He is the author of America's Drug Deal: Vaccines Corruption. For more information go to jamesontaylor.com.
    Copyright © 2003 LayWitness

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    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Huge percent of Americans support forced vaccination, prison for anti-vax
    « Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 11:41:40 PM »
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  • Ive been getting the cash to get out of here and avoid the coming forced vax.  Ebola was a nice little test and it'll occur .  

    Glad Cathinfo is still around; havent posted in years but I still follow.