Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Matthew on March 29, 2007, 11:07:29 PM
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Here is how HMiS responded to someone claiming to be a "queer traditional Catholic" on another forum.
It made so much sense, and was so Catholic and well-thought-out, I thought I'd re-post it here.
According to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, to which we all pledge allegiance, which is itself the pure interpretation of Sacred Scripture and of Tradition, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts are gravely sinful and - if committed with full consent to the acts - a mortal sin which merits eternal punishment in hell. However, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity being a grave psychological affective disorder, it can be licit and beneficial to maintain a group talking on how to overcome ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and live a chaste life.
Certainly there are - I fear - even traditionalist Roman Catholic priests who suffer from ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations, but those who live according to those raw lustful gravely sinful feelings and drives, will have a hard life living saintly and not receiving Holy Communion in state of mortal sin.
But what is your purpose in proudfully referring to yourself as a "queer". Even if I were "gαy" (that is: ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ), I would never refer to myself in such a way.
I do not introduce myself by "Hi, I am a heterosɛҳuąƖ young man who likes blond, white women who are well-shaped up and below" either whenever I introduce myself into a Roman Catholic - or even secular - forum. Even though that would not be a lie. It would be offensive and inappropriate though. Once again, such behaviour makes clear that much of such ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activity and definition is hormonally compulsive psychological behaviour lacking reason.
I find it highly inappropriate the way you introduce yourself. As if you want to offend us. You do not offend me. I have lived through quite some weird experiences with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, including one trying to actively seduce one of my - extremely heterosɛҳuąƖ - friends.
God bless you; may you overcome your inclinations and try to live, like I (a heterosɛҳuąƖ) try (until I find a nice girl who likes me and the Faith; or until a vocation of religious life), a life of chastity.
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I would simply say, "You're a heterosɛҳuąƖ with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations. We all need help in this life and have made decisions we wish we could change. No one likes to identify themselves by their sɛҳuąƖity but by how they can change others in a positive way. Why don't we pray together and think of the beauty of living a life which is pleasing to God?"
Then say a small prayer if they are amenable without Protestant sermonizing prayers.
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I would tell them they seem to be suffereing from schizophrenia and should seek help from a experienced psychologist.
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I would say "Hi, I hope that means you struggle with ssa/ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations but understand the teachings of the Church on the subject and live a chaste life."
I wouldn't write anymore until he/she responds. I do want to ask what HMiS asked, what is his purpose for introducing himself as a gαy Catholic, but I wouldn't want to put him too much on the defensive and scare him away.
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I'd say "Hello"!
And then see how the conversation developed!
Clare.
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People got off on al kinds of soap-box tangents in this thread, diverting attention from one serious point:
Sodomy is a sin of impurity that is contrary to nature (which can be known by unaided reason) - called 'unnatural vice' for centuries.
As such, all who presently think otherwise need to be renewed in their minds in a radical manner.
I never saw the original poster state plainly that he understood the truth about this disorder. He may indeed understand this quite well, but I did not see him state it plainly. Until that is cleared up, all other discussion seems out of order.
HMiS' post was indeed well done.
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I especially like the part I just BOLDed.
It's really true that for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, their whole world is "sex" which isn't the case for a rational, well-ordered human being.
He also touched on the fact that there is an aspect of immaturity in the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ phenomenon. Namely, a boy of 12 is naturally "interested in" other boys -- which at that age means he wants to PLAY with them, because his mind should be far from sex, and usually is, unless he becomes corrupted by an outside force.
When sex is brought into the picture too early, it becomes a large problem, as boys are still more comfortable around other boys at a young age.
Matthew
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OK, I had to go look...
That thread was just plain sad.
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"If you're Catholic, then I'm a whale"
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Extra marem (???), nulla salus.
Save the whales!
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:nunchaku: :light-saber: I wouldnt say anything, I'd just let my Kitana ( Japanese sword ) do all the talking. If he dosnt want to say anything then my knife might put in his two cents. Wha... hold on... the ADL's at my door. :good-shot: O.K now that thats taken care of...
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I'm picturing an Anime-esque samurai with a zeal against sɛҳuąƖ perverts:
Douseiai yatsu wa yurusanai! Sonna koto wo suru to, ore no katana ga...
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Taken literally the question is ridiculous. In my years, no one ever walked up to me and say: "Hi, I'm Catholic" ... or "Hi, I'm ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ". Therefore, I estimate my chance next to nil for ever have someone throw me a combo of, "Hi, I'm a Catholic ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ".
Of course, I understand this to be a rhetorical, but it's also virtually impractical.
A person discussing his spirituality and/or his sɛҳuąƖity is already feeling that you have opened up to them and that there is a certain respect established.
I personally would not crumble this relation and act like an ass. This does not mean I cannot express my beliefs about those two conditions. But I would not clam up on him or her.
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ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a grave sin. However, having ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ TENDENCIES is not a sin. It's a disorder. If the person manages not to act on them, he has done his duty to God. If he does act on them and confesses, and sincerely tries to change, he has as good a chance as any of us.
Considering how promiscuous gαy people are, I'd say he has a tough fight ahead of him. But if he wins it, he wins it with honor.
I am a strict ( and straight ) guy, but it really bothers me when I hear people just condemn ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in a blanket statement. I can see why, considering the "gαy crusade" shoved down our throats at every second. But you only increase their defiance and make them hate Christ more when you talk like that. They just think "Oh, I'll never make it," and then their hearts go dark and they go to Vatican II seminary and you know the rest of the story...
God is merciful. He will see any sincere efforts that even a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ makes to follow the law. Mind you, it must be SINCERE. If he came up to me and said "I'm a gαy Catholic!" as if it were a badge of honor, I'd know right away he wasn't sincere. I'd avoid him like the plague. He is taking pride in his aberration. If I knew he was gαy by his mannerisms, even though he was saying "I'm not gαy, I'm not gαy," I'd feel sorry for him and pray for him. And if he said flat-out "I've always had an attraction to men and I have struggled against it all my life," I'd even cautiously admire him.
St. Paul spoke against "Men with men WORKING that which is filthy." He didn't say "Men thinking about that which is filthy." Sometimes those thoughts pop into our heads and we have to chase them out. It's no different with heterosɛҳuąƖs. One day I'll be strolling along and suddenly a perverted image will pop into my head out of nowhere. The devil is attacking me. I have to say a "Hail Mary" and think of the beatitude of the saints and the peace of heaven. Mary is the key here. Thinking of her gentleness and grace and how offensive even the slightest sins of mind are to her, even though she is always ready to forgive them, never fails to shame me into correcting myself.
And if this doesn't work, I will burn myself with a lighter. That's what I did when there was a girl at the gym flirting with me. She certainly wasn't the marrying kind and this was no spiritual attraction; she was a classic minx, gliding about batting her eyelashes. Just looking at her would flood my brain with sɛҳuąƖ images. So I told myself, "Until you stop thinking of her, you're going to get burned and it will hurt." As I was driving home, doubled over with the pain of sɛҳuąƖ desire, I would roast my arm with the lighter until it looked like an entree at El Pollo Loco. Eventually I got sick of being burned and stopped going to the gym when I knew she'd be there. I finally realized that I was torturing myself and to LOOK AWAY.
I don't think this is really any different with gαys. If they say they have a "stronger temptation" then heterosɛҳuąƖs I'd say they are full of pride as well as sinful lust. I live in Los Angeles by the beach and cute girls of all kinds -- brunette, blonde, redhead, short, tall, thin, lush -- are EVERYWHERE. Sometimes I pray that God takes me out in a car accident before I slip and commit a mortal sin after baptism.
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I also wish the original poster well -- that he might understand the corrupted nature of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, the will of God, etc.
But I also hope he's still alive!
This IS a very old thread :wink:
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:nunchaku: :light-saber: I wouldnt say anything, I'd just let my Kitana ( Japanese sword ) do all the talking. If he dosnt want to say anything then my knife might put in his two cents. Wha... hold on... the ADL's at my door. :good-shot: O.K now that thats taken care of...
Since this thread has popped up again, I would like to take this opportunity to retract this post made back in the day when I was but an immature 16 year old.
ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a vice (of the lowest kind), yet if a person be sorry for their life of sin and confess, no doubt God will forgive them and will help them overcome the effects of their past life in time. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs need our prayers not our insults. If it were not for the grace of God we would probably be as depraved and wicked as they.
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I especially like the part I just BOLDed.
It's really true that for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, their whole world is "sex" which isn't the case for a rational, well-ordered human being.
He also touched on the fact that there is an aspect of immaturity in the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ phenomenon. Namely, a boy of 12 is naturally "interested in" other boys -- which at that age means he wants to PLAY with them, because his mind should be far from sex, and usually is, unless he becomes corrupted by an outside force.
When sex is brought into the picture too early, it becomes a large problem, as boys are still more comfortable around other boys at a young age.
Matthew
There was a Harvard study I heard about, and can't seem to find now (how convenient -_- ) that said that 90% of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs interviewed were either raped, molested, or exposed to sɛҳuąƖly explicit material at a very young age.
Of those, the vast majority of them can be rehabilitated with therapy according to this study (close to 100%.)
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Read here.
(forget the source focus on the message)
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/does_God_create_ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.php
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Read here.
(forget the source focus on the message)
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/does_God_create_ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.php
Posting that article got me banned on Fisheaters.
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So happy to hear that! It is an honor to be banned from there.
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Indeed it is a badge of honor.
HMiS has a good head on his shoulders, but he has to watch his mouth to stay posting on FE. The site-owner once excoriated me and engaged in argument for claiming Pope Benedict was Hegelian. HMiS had said the exact same thing earlier. I PM'ed him to come defend his own claim in my public argument with the site owner but he never did. He has the faith but lacks courage. When it comes to engaging the site owners as to their errors he humbly obeys and sits in his corner.
Plus he no doubt knows of Q&V's marital scandal and keeps mum on it. The price of admission to the Neo-Trad circus.
In any case, he is a voice in the wilderness and is typically ignored by 90% of the posters there who are more interested in the latest death metal video, period costume, video game, or cross-dressing.
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I should elaborate -
after posting that article, many other posters told me that I should watch my mouth so to speak, and one brought up that posting that article was what got another member banned. I stood firm and said "What I have posted is the teaching of the Church, if it that is grounds to ban me, then so be it." And it is for that very reason that QuisUtDeus banned me under the username of "Alfonso". It is blasphemy to say that God creates sodomites.
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I believe that gαy Catholic received dating encouragement from Vox and eventually went on to say that he found a trad cath gαy boyfriend that he "married". The perversion at fish eaters knows no bounds.
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I also wish the original poster well -- that he might understand the corrupted nature of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, the will of God, etc.
But I also hope he's still alive!
This IS a very old thread :wink:
I like women, but am not free to pursue them........his mental illness (ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity) which is disordered does not give him right to proceed with immoral acts......
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I especially like the part I just BOLDed.
It's really true that for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, their whole world is "sex" which isn't the case for a rational, well-ordered human being.
He also touched on the fact that there is an aspect of immaturity in the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ phenomenon. Namely, a boy of 12 is naturally "interested in" other boys -- which at that age means he wants to PLAY with them, because his mind should be far from sex, and usually is, unless he becomes corrupted by an outside force.
When sex is brought into the picture too early, it becomes a large problem, as boys are still more comfortable around other boys at a young age.
Matthew
There was a Harvard study I heard about, and can't seem to find now (how convenient -_- ) that said that 90% of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs interviewed were either raped, molested, or exposed to sɛҳuąƖly explicit material at a very young age.
Of those, the vast majority of them can be rehabilitated with therapy according to this study (close to 100%.)
Have heard that too....
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There is a very big question in my mind. Suppose marriage becomes unavailable for the whole humanity for 30 years (there is no issue of extintion of our race. right?) then is it right to expetc all people to remain continent?
I really have a problem with those who say that if they don't marry they will fall. ie. They must satisfy their desires, and cant forget them. I believe in bible's teaching on this issue. But I still wonder: If it is possible to curb and eradicate ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, why is it not possible to do this with heterosɛҳuąƖ feelings???
again: for the sake of arguement forget the "continuation of our race" consider that marriage is allowed for barren and elderly people.
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There is a very big question in my mind. Suppose marriage becomes unavailable for the whole humanity for 30 years (there is no issue of extintion of our race. right?) then is it right to expetc all people to remain continent?
I really have a problem with those who say that if they don't marry they will fall. ie. They must satisfy their desires, and cant forget them. I believe in bible's teaching on this issue. But I still wonder: If it is possible to curb and eradicate ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, why is it not possible to do this with heterosɛҳuąƖ feelings???
again: for the sake of arguement forget the "continuation of our race" consider that marriage is allowed for barren and elderly people.
Good thoughts, whether "gαy" or "straight", it is free will to curb your urges or go with them.....difference of course is hetero urges are within natural law and order, normal......the homo urges are disordered as they go against nature.....one should not argue for procreation as continuing the race, that is God's job or not, whatever he feels (like premise in Children of Men movie). Procreation is aiding God, through the process He made, to raise up children for his glory, to be with Him.....cannot do if homo.....
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:pray:
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:dancing-banana:
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I especially like the part I just BOLDed.
It's really true that for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, their whole world is "sex" which isn't the case for a rational, well-ordered human being.
Every television show I see on tv has heteosɛҳuąƖs making jokes about sex all the time and constantly engaging in pre-marital intercourse and encouraging sɛҳuąƖ depravity in nearly every tv sitcom.
Be careful about making generalizations about certain groups of people.
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I especially like the part I just BOLDed.
It's really true that for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, their whole world is "sex" which isn't the case for a rational, well-ordered human being.
Every television show I see on tv has heteosɛҳuąƖs making jokes about sex all the time and constantly engaging in pre-marital intercourse and encouraging sɛҳuąƖ depravity in nearly every tv sitcom.
Be careful about making generalizations about certain groups of people.
I think Chant is 100% correct about this!
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And I am 100% correct about my comment.
TheD, Do you have experience in the gαy community to say that they are all about 'sex' ?
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What use would 'experiance' in the 'gαy' 'community' serve? One must avoid evil at all cost.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=81310
Those who support ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions must repent or be thrown into hell with Satan!
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Sheesh. My post in this thread shows me just how radically I have changed in a couple of months. I was one of those "good-hearted liberals" -- how naive.
Let me correct myself and say that if someone has ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations then the person is gravely mentally disordered, and must overcome those inclinations through the help of God. Someone like Boniface, who makes ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ jokes and has pretty much done everything short of admitting outright that he has these unnatural tendencies, needs to stop making light of the problem, as this is no joking matter.
I used to believe people were born gαy, which I repent of. To say that is only to encourage them and make them think they can't help themselves. When people say they are "born" gαy what they really mean is that at a certain point in their childhood they first noticed ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations. They then get attached to these inclinations thinking that it's an inextricable part of their development. Lazily, they let their mind revolve around these thoughts, not even bothering to resist them, thinking that they can't help it. Eventually they're plagued with all kinds of perverted mental fantasies, such as that they should have been born as girls or whatever.
Can someone who ever has ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations defeat them and be a true Catholic, without bringing the religion down to some abased level, as the VII priests and probably many trad priests are doing? I would like to think that theoretically they can completely obliterate all traces of unnatural desire from their minds. How often this happens in practice -- your guess is as good as mine.
All I know is that no one who has, or has admitted to having had these inclinations should be admitted to a seminary ever again.
After what has happened in the Church, or "Church," anyone who has even the slightest tendency in that direction should be kept out of cassocks from now on, for their own sakes as well as the sake of others.
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Sheesh. My post in this thread shows me just how radically I have changed in a couple of months. I was one of those "good-hearted liberals" -- how naive.
Let me correct myself and say that if someone has ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations then the person is gravely mentally disordered, and must overcome those inclinations through the help of God. Someone like Boniface, who makes ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ jokes and has pretty much done everything short of admitting outright that he has these unnatural tendencies, needs to stop making light of the problem, as this is no joking matter.
I used to believe people were born gαy, which I repent of. To say that is only to encourage them and make them think they can't help themselves. When people say they are "born" gαy what they really mean is that at a certain point in their childhood they first noticed ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations. They then get attached to these inclinations thinking that it's an inextricable part of their development. Lazily, they let their mind revolve around these thoughts, not even bothering to resist them, thinking that they can't help it. Eventually they're plagued with all kinds of perverted mental fantasies, such as that they should have been born as girls or whatever.
Can someone who ever has ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ inclinations defeat them and be a true Catholic, without bringing the religion down to some abased level, as the VII priests and probably many trad priests are doing? I would like to think that theoretically they can completely obliterate all traces of unnatural desire from their minds. How often this happens in practice -- your guess is as good as mine.
All I know is that no one who has, or has admitted to having had these inclinations should be admitted to a seminary ever again.
After what has happened in the Church, or "Church," anyone who has even the slightest tendency in that direction should be kept out of cassocks from now on, for their own sakes as well as the sake of others.
AMEN!!! :applause: :applause: :applause:
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:sleep:
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:sleep:
I figured you disagreed with the Churches teaching, o well I am ignoring your drivel for good. Good ridence heretic!
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lol never said i disagree with the church's teaching. poor confused kid. :baby:
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I don't know what you said, but the amount who have already ignored you speaks for itself!
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TheD said:
I figured you disagreed with the Churches teaching, o well I am ignoring your drivel for good. Good ridence heretic!
:roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1:
The rough grammar together with your avatar made this hilarious. I'm imagining some proud but unlettered knight riding his horse over the supine body of Boniface.
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That kind of sounded sadistic. Bad joke, sorry.
An absurdist sense of humor and Catholicism don't mix. This is why I don't tell jokes much anymore. I always end up feeling guilty about something or other.
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TheD said:
I figured you disagreed with the Churches teaching, o well I am ignoring your drivel for good. Good ridence heretic!
:roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1:
The rough grammar together with your avatar made this hilarious. I'm imagining some proud but unlettered knight riding his horse over the supine body of Boniface.
Watch out Boniface! :heretic:
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Sorry, I do not take threats from pubescant pimple faced teenage kids living in the middle of no where. Kid needs to get a life.
:fryingpan:
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I love this ignore function! You probably said something dumb!
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Sorry, here's a late reply to a post from August:
I believe that gαy Catholic received dating encouragement from Vox and eventually went on to say that he found a trad cath gαy boyfriend that he "married". The perversion at fish eaters knows no bounds.
I've just checked all 4 postings of the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ fellow on FE, and he said no such thing.
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My answer to the orginial question:
If it was a guy, I'd say "So what? I'm obviously not your type, did you think you have to warn all women away from you or something? Don't let me catch you around any young boys."
If it was a woman I'd say "You're making a big mistake. I'm Catholic and as such, remain celibate outside marriage. The fact that I'm not dating men does not mean that I'm not a perfectly healthy heterosɛҳuąƖ woman. Now get out of my sight."
Anyone who proclaims a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ identity and a Catholic identity in the same breath is obviously not in communion with the Saints and not entitled to anything other than what the Bible tells us to do about such people, banish them from our midst and leave them to their own devils.
Of course, I am assuming that such a proclamation follows the other steps the Bible tells us to use with a brother or sister caught in sin, which is to first privately remosntrate and next to go to that brother or sister in company of a witness. I can't believe a person who has never had the conversation about biblical prohibition of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity would bother to label themselves as both gαy and Catholic.
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It is the Liberal mass media that made ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity into a
exaggerated mass movement. Get rid of the Liberal mass media,
the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ movement will go away. Those with such
inclinations can better control, and healed from it. Get rid
of that one eye box in your living room. All it does, is
spread scandals, and sins. Say your Family Rosary, The
Rosary, if said devoutly, is a healer of all sins.
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In another thread a member said that this unnatural desire, can be sometimes a result of too much seperation between people of opposite gender. If we say that the only reason why some people end in this sin is their impure life style (bad media etc.) we cannot explain the reason why it happens to those who live in a very modest envirnment with no internet.
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There are many reasons for sɛҳuąƖ deviance, very very few are "inborn". It is true that some babies are born with an imperfect balance of hormones and are physically hermaphrodites, and I was warned as a young mother during my first pregnancy in 1975 that marijuana smoked during the first trimester could cause retarded male hormones if I was carrying a boy.
The ridiculous "10%" statistic is a false statistic based on an old Massachusetts requirement that school programs had to serve 10% of the population's needs in order to be funded by tax money. That was fought with the horrible "needs enhancement" campaign of the gαy/lesbian groups in which the Unitarian Church and the other religious fanatics helped promote ѕυιcιdє risk among teens (by inviting unsuspecting teenage couples to meetings and then subjecting them to mobs of gαy adults shouting at them that they served the oppressor by dating the opposite sex. they also encouraged gauntlets in the school halls. they succeeded in spiking ѕυιcιdє attempts in Massachusetts high schools in the 1980's and early 1990's.)
The social causes of gαy identity are:
absence of father and presence of a man-hating mother or presence of a father who demands toughness at a very early age
(among Catholics, the hatred of sex in any form that appears holy to some fanatics can result in abusive anger from the mother when a boy experiences natural night ejaculations. If his father does not take over and help him understand and accept his male sɛҳuąƖity at an early age, a repressive mother will emasculate him.)
peer pressure and inappropriately explicit sex education at young ages
intolerance of activities considered "feminine" in fascist cultures like the USA, which has extreme polarization of teen roles
intolerance of natural experimentation at young ages which is completely unconnected to identification with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity or heterosɛҳuąƖity
Now, watch the local fanatics jump on this thread to accuse me of supporting free sex, etc. in the "experimentation" comment.
No, I do not support free sex. The Catholic morality of sex within marriage leaves plenty of room for young people to experiment and come to terms with their own identity, as many a traditional teenager knows. In a loving home the ideal is supported and the teenager's willingness to wait is supported, but today such a teenager will be attacked in the public school by teachers who notice the lack of promiscuous dating and who identify that teenager as "gαy" and force that identity on him or her.
What is going on today in Anmerica is actual, deliberate, gov't supported brainwashing. It started under Gov Weld in Massacusetts as well as in San Francisco and it is modeled on Hitler's actual program of exploiting gαy politics to destabilize Germany when the nαzιs were just starting out.
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Please, if you don't want to be accused of anything, explain what you mean by "experiment".
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Please, if you don't want to be accused of a nything, explain what you mean by "experiment".
I don't mean having sex. I mean, they will think about what talents they have and what life-roles they want, and if a young man swears he'll never want a wife, or a young woman prefers to compete with the men, the teachers should just leave them alone and not stand them up in front of the class and tell them to proclaim themselves as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.
That is what the teachers are doing today. They are forcing gαy identity on any teenager who is not heterosɛҳuąƖly promiscuous. They are not letting kids be kids.
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Amend your life, and go to Confession. Avoid all occasions of
sin.