Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Immaculata001 on October 24, 2013, 09:30:40 PM
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I have been considering the acceptance and promotion of "transɛҳuąƖism" over at FE, and I happened to watch the movie "Infamous," which depicts Truman Capote's life at the time of the writing of In Cold Blood.
Capote, a famous American writer, was notoriously effeminate -- he was extremely so...
It caused me to consider how one should treat men who are extremely effeminate? I think we've all known of sissies from our youth who were very shocking in their behavior, their walk, their voices, and their interests. Some men are so effeminate that they seem to have a feminine build. As a child, and as depicted in the film which was set in the 1960s, I remember effeminate boys causing intense anxiety among both women and men.
Some men are so effeminate that it's extremely difficult for them to disguise it. What should they do? If they are celibate and not being brazen, how should one behave towards them?
I have a former coworker who's effeminate. I speak to him and treat him kindly, but I don't discuss romantic relationships with him or anything that might lead him to disclose anything -- I've also taken to praying for his conversion just as I pray for my own conversion.
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There was a person at my work who was very effeminate. I am almost certain he was ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ. I stayed far away. Fortunately, my job doesn't normally put me in a position of interaction with my co-workers. The only risks were on break or lunch. It is wise to be not too familiar with people who purport an un-Catholic culture and morals. This may not be the best approach, but I have found it helpful for my own sanity.
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Civil but distant.
Also, keep this soul in your prayers.
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I should say that I'm a woman -- it's a little different than a man interacting with an effeminate man. I think most normal men would not consider associating with an effeminate man; IMO, if a man does want to be around an effeminate man he's got some unsavory motive...
But what should some effeminate do about how it shows up? For instance, some of them have extremely high pitched voices, even when speaking very low. I'm not sure what they can do about it.
Of course, traditional teaching is that they should be celibate and humble, but the discomfort with what's obvious remains...
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Civil but distant.
Also, keep this soul in your prayers.
I agree. There is a man at my work who is effeminate. He does not say he's a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, and honestly I am unsure if he really is or not. I am cordial with him, and he with me. We were both working out in our workplace gym, and even got to discussing the Faith to an extent.
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Not all men with feminine traits, ie, a high voice, odd way of walking, are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. I have a distant relative in his 20s who has cerebal palsy, developmental delays and a severe speech impediment. He is often mistaken for being "gαy" and finds it very distressing, as he is most definitely NOT! I'd be kind, polite, friendly unless the man acts inappropriately.
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Some of that is just personality, I think. I know some perfectly hetero married men who just know how to get their girl on, somewhat accidentally. :facepalm: They're effeminate. One I'm thinking of has a wife who KNOWS he leans effeminate, especially with his girly giggle if he drinks a beer. She's a Baptist convert who tells her husband when he's getting a little "giddy", and that's her code word for him to man it up a little (or stop drinking). And it seems to work. I think she's saving his soul by helping him with his mannerisms. Clearly, he thinks so as well. He's simply more respected when he's acting more manly; he knows it. I think he looks at it as a vice.
And of course most of us probably know gαy men who don't seem effeminate at all.
My Baptist convert friend (Bible THUMPER, esp since we showed her THE REST of the Bible) says sodomy is a separate sin from being effeminate, but a sin all the same, and that there's really no excuse for a hetero man to act like a flaming Sodomite. —And our priest agreed with her and (to calm her down, I think), then waxed on about the privileged man not being used to toil, and whether or not a man tries to fight back if he's punched. I think it's from St. Thomas' vices opposed to perseverance (http://www.egs.edu/library/thomas-aquinas/articles/summa-theologica-part-ii-ii-secunda-secundae-translated-by-fathers-of-the-english-dominican-province/treatise-on-fortitude-and-temperance-qq-123-170/question-138of-the-vices-opposed-to-perseverance/). Brilliant, but a bit over my head (and I think would be greatly expounded upon if St. Thomas could write about what we have around us today).
I think that effeminate behaviors in men offend God and should be harshly ignored, though I do sign a cross in my palm as a prayer for any strangers who pirouette by me on the streets.
(Of course, as Frances points out, conditions like cerebral palsy might tend to demonstrate effeminate behaviors, but I think we're clear that we're talking about 100% pinky-in-the-air and womanly-Sodomite talk, like, "Girlfriend, love your shoes... Louboutin?" No man should know what a Louboutin is unless he's paying for an extravagant purchase his wife made and needs to yell at her about it.)
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says sodomy is a separate sin from being effeminate
Does being effeminate lead to someone becoming a sodomite? I think of effeminancy (sp?) as a kind of character defect. Some people are prone to rash judgments and wrath; other people are gluttons, for instance. If you take a character defect to its terminus, it leads to something. Wrath can lead to murder, in its extreme...
I have a hard time reading some scholarly Church teachings, but I was wondering if someone could explain it in lay terms? Aquinas is too hard for me...
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Effeminate behavior is a vice.
Men should not be that way.
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First, in the instance of those born as such:
Immaculata, effeminacy is condemned in the Scriptures. However, there are remedies and it can be minimized. Certainly, if hormonal in origin, the man cannot be held "responsible" for the condition anymore than for the color of his hair.
While, objectively and from a great remove, I might imagine that some of these poor creatures live an agonized life, bereft of real friends and making up for it by gathering any sort of attention they may. In short, even looking, sounding or behaving foolishly matters less than receiving some sort, almost any sort, of attention from others. It might be, for many of them, a terribly lonely existence.
Contrary to socialist dogma, God did not make men equal or even terribly similar. In better times, all men knew implicitly that it was the duty of the strong to protect the person and, as well, the good name of the weak. Whence, the sacred oath of knighthood.
It would seem most un-chivalric to consider that a true knight would mock or terrify some poor soul deficient in his normal attributes, even long before modern hormonal medical advances were developed.
Beyond all that, there are men who cannot enter combat or perform impressive physical feats, from their childhood. They may have any number of other skills of use to society, however, and in which they may justly take pride for their accomplishments.
Now, as to those who adopt such characteristics and behaviors as a result of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖism, the matter is altogether different. They may even be chaste but willful in the manner of how they present themselves. It might be an emotional or even an ideological "game" for them wherein they deliberately seek to outrage others. These, I can only suggest, deserve ostracization, full stop. If possible, making it clear that one is neither interested in their views or in social interaction with them must be accomplished or, in some cases, they may seek to raise the emotional stakes and coerce others into "accepting" them, which is impossible.
And that is where the tension is greatest. As E. Michael Jones put it some years back, the queer is now the ideal citizen in fallen America, and Europe as well (save, thank God!, for Russia).
Despite the propaganda, the population of homos is probably less than 2% in most countries. It might be a bit higher in the West today, as a result of immigration from more repressive, non-Western cultures. However, these creatures do not in any way constitute a sizable portion of the population, as much as some of them would like to otherwise convince everyone.
Thus, being polite but distant, prudently avoiding settings where the risk of having to openly deal with an effeminate individual (who probably has any number of new civil procedures at his command if anyone antagonizes him) and, as others said, praying for yourself - first! - and then for his conversion may be, as far as possible, the only practical steps to take.
My remarks are only very general but I hope helpful to you. I have had zero encounters in my lifetime with such people and am trying to pass along what seems reasonable for a Catholic to do. I've seen very few effeminate men and it was always out in a general public setting.
I would hope good manners and being a gentleman or lady would most times carry the day even in an uncomfortable situation.
To close, I've seen quite a number of heterosɛҳuąƖ men who were dolts, jerks, creeps and ne'er-do-wells of other descriptions not fit to describe in mixed company. But, they too, and most fortunately, have been a minority.
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I think you should be circuмspect in judging other people. There are some men who may appear effeminate who are married with children and anything but 'gαy.' Then there are other men who are very rugged and masculine who are very attracted to other men. I say be charitable and also be prudent.
:cool: :cool: :cool:
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Effeminate men seem to be numerous among the conciliar church and their religious orders. Some of them you would swear they were homos, but then logic kicks in, and you know that Jesus is portrayed as a feminine personality, and that modern society punishes men who act like men, because violence and assertiveness is "shocking". I don't see why people who have criminal records or who got into other trouble, or whom society drove mental, should be barred from religious life, but that is just a personal gripe. but Religion and its do no evil philosophy makes some religious men think that they are paralysed and can never get angry or fight for anything, even though true religion is the opposite. We must Fight. Our souls depend on it.
:boxer:
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We had a situation with an effeminate priest at my NO parish and it was the reason I left the NO.
Many parishioners were uncomfortable with his manner. He would talk to men and husbands in an overly familiar way and would ignore wives who would speak to him or even greet him. He was also often late or not present in church functions and wouldn't perform his duties. People went to the Bishop about his manner and other issues and the Bishop did nothing.
Well, eventually a scandal involving him and another man made statewide news; the scandal involved drug use and impurity and he was also embezzling money from our parish building fund (we didn't have a permanent church yet).
The put him into therapy and simply transferred him to my sister's parish in another city. The parish is poor and minority.
We tend to laugh at external manifestations of certain vices and sins, but this was a case were it was a sign of a grievous sin. Many parishioners fled the parish, myself included... It reminds me to consider my own sins and how they are manifest and how I minimize them or presume God's mercy.
Effeminate men seem to be numerous among the conciliar church and their religious orders. Some of them you would swear they were homos, but then logic kicks in, and you know that Jesus is portrayed as a feminine personality, and that modern society punishes men who act like men, because violence and assertiveness is "shocking". I don't see why people who have criminal records or who got into other trouble, or whom society drove mental, should be barred from religious life, but that is just a personal gripe. but Religion and its do no evil philosophy makes some religious men think that they are paralysed and can never get angry or fight for anything, even though true religion is the opposite. We must Fight. Our souls depend on it.
:boxer:
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And that is where the tension is greatest. As E. Michael Jones put it some years back, the queer is now the ideal citizen in fallen America, and Europe as well (save, thank God!, for Russia).
Despite the propaganda, the population of homos is probably less than 2% in most countries.
I think sodomy is a choice one makes, except in the case of rape of course, so I never liked those numbers. 2%, 10%, or 50%, they're certainly not "born that way". Born fallen, we all are except the necessary few in history, but I'd guess most people today don't get Baptised anymore, so they stay fallen. And then it doesn't even matter what they do: sodomy, necrophilia, bestiality, adultery, it's all bad and that society is toast.
I know of people who practice all sorts of evil, but don't "self-identify" that way. They say they don't want to be pegged down with a label. Kids say they're not sure yet, as if they're planning to try everything on for size. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they teach that attitude in public schools. But whatever has happened, this mystery of iniquity, it has far eclipsed that 2% figure.
The best I can say is, this All Hallow's Eve, most people in Western "civilization" would not NEED a costume to portray themselves as the living dead. :sad:
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How to treat effeminate men? As you would anyone else made in the Image and Likeness of God.
Every one of us has their own cross to carry as we try to become like Christ. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs should see God's Goodness, Love and Mercy in each of us, and then we can in time introduce them to God's Holy Church, the hospital for all of us sinners. Shunning them reflects a Pharisaical hardness of heart incompatible with Christ and His Kingdom.
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How to treat effeminate men? As you would anyone else made in the Image and Likeness of God.
Every one of us has their own cross to carry as we try to become like Christ. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs should see God's Goodness, Love and Mercy in each of us, and then we can in time introduce them to God's Holy Church, the hospital for all of us sinners. Shunning them reflects a Pharisaical hardness of heart incompatible with Christ and His Kingdom.
A wise and humble post, Nick.
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The Church is not a hospital.
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The Church is not a hospital.
Where else does one go to be treated for and cured of the insanity of sin?
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A "hospital" implies you're paying for treatment for a condition, after which you'll leave. You don't leave the Church. The Church is NOT a hospital; the Church is a KINGDOM in which we reside all the time. In varying conditions, maybe, but we don't come and go.
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The Church in this life should be an army...not a triage tent after a battle.
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Yes: a Church MILITANT marching into battle! A Kingdom! Soldiers armed with armor of truth and so forth. Something to be protected and cherished.
Not a triage. I really didn't like that Frankism at all.
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How to treat effeminate men? As you would anyone else made in the Image and Likeness of God.
Every one of us has their own cross to carry as we try to become like Christ. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs should see God's Goodness, Love and Mercy in each of us, and then we can in time introduce them to God's Holy Church, the hospital for all of us sinners. Shunning them reflects a Pharisaical hardness of heart incompatible with Christ and His Kingdom.
I tried earlier to add to my post but the cement had dried and I lost it. Anyway hours later here is the redone version.
Getting back on topic, the OP asked about effeminacy. Many people seem to think that effeminacy means ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, but not necessarily so.
A baby boy raised by a lone mother, or together with a violent, weak, or emotionally-absent father, without the benefit of the rough-and-tumble toughening-up process which can only be supplied by a father, may possibly grow up to act effeminately. He may not know how to act in a masculine way and/or his effeminate behaviour may be encouraged and even rewarded within the dysfunctional family.
He will feel different from other boys. He will feel the lack of a true father. He may be singled out for name-calling etc and vulnerable to be preyed upon by unscrupulous characters.
All these things don’t make for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, but he is in a very dangerous situation and he may find that the only friends he is able to make are unsavoury types.
Behaviour is learned and it can be unlearned, not without great difficulty, prayer, fasting, the practice of the Sacraments and self-discipline. He will need to detach himself from the unchaste, and he will need male friend/s who will accept him as he is and hopefully he will be able to learn from them in a safe chaste environment how to be manly.
This is a rare but possible scenario.
This solution can also work for those ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs who wish to be freed from their slavery, and they can overcome their sin and temptation to sin, with prayer, fasting, the practice of the Sacraments and self-discipline and the help and support of manly men.
Such a work of Charity is not for every man, but there are those who are holy, balanced and virtuous enough to do it.
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Agree with this Nadir. There used to be a very effeminate layman at the SSPX in London for many years. He didn't tell and nobody asked and he was accepted just fine by all the laity. He was seen every Sunday for years and went on pilgrimages and processions on a regular basis.
Nobody assumed that because he was camp/effeminate he was a practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ or even, necessarily, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖly inclined. He had the good grace and sense to stay away from the topic and as far as I know, nobody ever asked him. Eventually he died and was given a full Catholic burial.
One has to be very careful with this stuff. If you do have a Catholic living a chaste life and fighting their demons, the last thing they need is to be suspected a practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ when they are not one. It's possible that an event like that could make them quit their effort and then God might hold the people or persons that were uncharitable responsible. It is none of my business unless THEY make it so.
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It has been my observation that the people you need to watch out for are the very masculine ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ men.
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It has been my observation that the people you need to watch out for are the very masculine ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ men.
Yes, like the ones who populated the nαzι SA, aka the Brownshirts...
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It has been my observation that the people you need to watch out for are the very masculine ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ men.
Yes, like the ones who populated the nαzι SA, aka the Brownshirts...
:laugh2:
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How to treat effeminate men? As you would anyone else made in the Image and Likeness of God.
Every one of us has their own cross to carry as we try to become like Christ. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs should see God's Goodness, Love and Mercy in each of us, and then we can in time introduce them to God's Holy Church, the hospital for all of us sinners. Shunning them reflects a Pharisaical hardness of heart incompatible with Christ and His Kingdom.
That's a stereotypical cliché response from the "peace and love" world.
re: As you would anyone else made in the Image and Likeness of God.
Every person is made in the image of God, so what?
re: Every one of us has their own cross to carry as we try to become like Christ. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs...
ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is not "a cross to bare", it is "a sin that cries out to Heaven for vengeance". It involves corrupting other people.
re: ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs should see God's Goodness, Love and Mercy in each of us, and then we can in time introduce them to God's Holy Church, the hospital for all of us sinners. Shunning them reflects a Pharisaical hardness of heart incompatible with Christ and His Kingdom
They can see the goodness in us by how we live, and not by our getting involved directly with them. Change the above from ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ to wife swapping party neighbors, or criminal parolee neighbor, or immoral fornicating teenager neighbor, and tell me if you would expose your wife and children to such people because "Shunning them reflects a Pharisaical hardness of heart incompatible with Christ and His Kingdom"?
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For me, the very sight of an effeminate man in my church, is a big red flag. This is someone to keep a close eye on. I watch them to see how they react to the young boys. If they are perverted, it will show.
It is the duty of men to watch out for these people, because women do not have a good eye for this. In my experience, few men have an eye for it. Many times I have saved young men from being victimized, and no one even noticed. It does not take many people to do the job, but those with an eye to see, need to step up and do their duty.
By the way, the same applies to watching for young men preying on the girls. There too, I don't see many people with an eye for watching out for them.
I have children, and I consider others children as if they were my own. Most fathers today are too busy thinking about Sundays football games or some other such trivial matter, meanwhile, their daughter is being seduced right before their eyes.
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I am not sure where you go to church Bowler but where I live I would have to live 50 lifetimes to see the sort of action you appear to have witnessed. Maybe we have bromide in the tap water here in the UK.
From your account one might conclude that half of your church-going men are experts in "speed seduction" and the other half struggle to get a date at all which appears to be a common complaint amoung young trads.
Have you really found it as common as your above post suggests?
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If you take out the same-sex part of it, I'd agree that at least one, sometimes two, people in most parishes are people to watch out for because they'll seduce women and teen girls, or act strangely around children. We're either told this (open secret sort of thing), or notice it and the child actually COMPLAINS.
We have one effeminate bachelor who's primarily just rich. It's not just his personal grooming habits, but his speech — and I mean the words he SAYS (though how he says them is a factor, too). He's older (50-60s?), and physically disabled (bad back), and perfectly round (5'3" tall and wide), so nobody "worries" about him being inappropriate, but visitors always assume he's homo.
I pray for him because he truly is scared of the silliest things (I'VE had to calm him down so I could kill the itty bitty spider with my fingers) and, well, he's scared of everything. He hoisted himself onto a chair when someone yelled "snake" once, leaving the women and children to fend for themselves (one older woman in her 70s walked over, picked up the harmless snake, and tossed it into the brush). He gets the "vapors," and says so (eg, "Girl, that scared me so bad I almost peed myself!"). We have to bring him water and calm him down. He uses a fan on himself like he's going through menopause, only it's his nerves (he's apparently ALWAYS been like that, needing to fan himself).
I adore the guy 100%; he's brilliant and funny, and I simply don't think he's gαy. He reminds me more of a eunuch (not interested in sɛҳuąƖ relations at all). But he's truly a poster boy for non-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ effeminism. Since scriptural eunuchs could be men of God (Daniel, for example), I think effeminates should shoot for those examples (Daniel stood UP for himself). As much as I enjoy his company, I fear he's got to man up a little. Good Lord he makes most of us women feel overly masculine.
I try to picture him being holy and humble ... he wouldn't do well in Purgatory, trust, so we've GOT to hope he's martyred. (Isn't that terrible!? I want him to go to Heaven, but the road... oh my.) Even then, I see him getting to Heaven and complimenting St. Peter on his robes, or complaining about dust specs in Heaven. :facepalm:
Does anyone even know how to pray for an effeminate man to "man up"? (I'm afraid I use those very words, and I even shrug a bit, because I don't know what to ask for!) Is there a patron saint for ...this effeminate condition? I read about Henry III (http://www.heritage-history.com/?c=read&author=guerber&book=oldfrance&story=effeminate) and, well, I got nothing. (Except maybe a duel in his youth? But we can't duel! —I have no idea.)
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I am not sure where you go to church Bowler but where I live I would have to live 50 lifetimes to see the sort of action you appear to have witnessed. Maybe we have bromide in the tap water here in the UK.
From your account one might conclude that half of your church-going men are experts in "speed seduction" and the other half struggle to get a date at all which appears to be a common complaint amoung young trads.
Have you really found it as common as your above post suggests?
To general, please be more specific.
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Soulguard:
... you know that Jesus is portrayed as a feminine personality,
Whoa, I have to say that I missed that. What exactly do you mean?
It's strange, but when I grew up in the fifties, one rarely saw one of these contraptions, not in the movies or Tv, or ones own classroom. All of a sudden there's one on every corner. I don't think that in most cases the sing-song, lilting voice is born in their vocal box. Most of them like it, so they practice it until they've got it right.
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I am not sure where you go to church Bowler but where I live I would have to live 50 lifetimes to see the sort of action you appear to have witnessed. Maybe we have bromide in the tap water here in the UK.
From your account one might conclude that half of your church-going men are experts in "speed seduction" and the other half struggle to get a date at all which appears to be a common complaint amoung young trads.
Have you really found it as common as your above post suggests?
Too general, please be more specific.
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If you take out the same-sex part of it, I'd agree that at least one, sometimes two, people in most parishes are people to watch out for because they'll seduce women and teen girls, or act strangely around children. We're either told this (open secret sort of thing), or notice it and the child actually COMPLAINS.
We have one effeminate bachelor who's primarily just rich. It's not just his personal grooming habits, but his speech — and I mean the words he SAYS (though how he says them is a factor, too). He's older (50-60s?), and physically disabled (bad back), and perfectly round (5'3" tall and wide), so nobody "worries" about him being inappropriate, but visitors always assume he's homo.
I pray for him because he truly is scared of the silliest things (I'VE had to calm him down so I could kill the itty bitty spider with my fingers) and, well, he's scared of everything. He hoisted himself onto a chair when someone yelled "snake" once, leaving the women and children to fend for themselves (one older woman in her 70s walked over, picked up the harmless snake, and tossed it into the brush). He gets the "vapors," and says so (eg, "Girl, that scared me so bad I almost peed myself!"). We have to bring him water and calm him down. He uses a fan on himself like he's going through menopause, only it's his nerves (he's apparently ALWAYS been like that, needing to fan himself).
I adore the guy 100%; he's brilliant and funny, and I simply don't think he's gαy. He reminds me more of a eunuch (not interested in sɛҳuąƖ relations at all). But he's truly a poster boy for non-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ effeminism. Since scriptural eunuchs could be men of God (Daniel, for example), I think effeminates should shoot for those examples (Daniel stood UP for himself). As much as I enjoy his company, I fear he's got to man up a little. Good Lord he makes most of us women feel overly masculine.
I try to picture him being holy and humble ... he wouldn't do well in Purgatory, trust, so we've GOT to hope he's martyred. (Isn't that terrible!? I want him to go to Heaven, but the road... oh my.) Even then, I see him getting to Heaven and complimenting St. Peter on his robes, or complaining about dust specs in Heaven. :facepalm:
Does anyone even know how to pray for an effeminate man to "man up"? (I'm afraid I use those very words, and I even shrug a bit, because I don't know what to ask for!) Is there a patron saint for ...this effeminate condition? I read about Henry III (http://www.heritage-history.com/?c=read&author=guerber&book=oldfrance&story=effeminate) and, well, I got nothing. (Except maybe a duel in his youth? But we can't duel! —I have no idea.)
Interesting. I have never met anyone like that at church other than the person I mentioned and I've been a Trad since 1978. While he was very camp, in all other ways he was a likeable chap and very devout.
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I have been considering the acceptance and promotion of "transɛҳuąƖism" over at FE, and I happened to watch the movie "Infamous," which depicts Truman Capote's life at the time of the writing of In Cold Blood.
Capote, a famous American writer, was notoriously effeminate -- he was extremely so...
Much more than that. He was blatantly ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.
It caused me to consider how one should treat men who are extremely effeminate? I think we've all known of sissies from our youth who were very shocking in their behavior, their walk, their voices, and their interests. Some men are so effeminate that they seem to have a feminine build. As a child, and as depicted in the film which was set in the 1960s, I remember effeminate boys causing intense anxiety among both women and men.
Hmm that seems strange since the 60's had some of the biggest effeminate liberals and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ lovers around: the hippies.
Some men are so effeminate that it's extremely difficult for them to disguise it. What should they do? If they are celibate and not being brazen, how should one behave towards them?
Well again I don't agree with my grandfather on everything but I can thank the man for telling me and showing me how to be a real man in life and not a "sissy." I remember quite well back in my younger days he constantly critiqued me on everything I wasn't doing: not able to tie a tie, not able to do anything on my own, etc. and calling me out as a sissy if I ever showed emotion. Now I'm sure these days our effeminates would call such a thing "cruel behavior" by a grandfather towards his grandson but to me it was the perfect rearing in this world I needed to become the strong man I became today. It reflects the values of an older culture that would look in horror and disgust at today's boys (including our grown-up "men") running around whining and showing emotion. The man never hugged me (and I would never do such a thing to my boys either) but it's what he has done for me that has helped me out the most in this world: how to be a strong man who can survive life by manly strength and willpower.
I have a former coworker who's effeminate. I speak to him and treat him kindly, but I don't discuss romantic relationships with him or anything that might lead him to disclose anything -- I've also taken to praying for his conversion just as I pray for my own conversion.
Hmm well I am reminded that with the allowing of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs into the priesthood because of the Vatican II ideal of "tolerance" it caused the most massive abuse the Church ever did: the sɛҳuąƖ abuse of young altar boys and the covering up of it.
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I have a better question:
How to treat overly MACHO guys. They are almost worse then extremely effeminate men.
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Well again I don't agree with my grandfather on everything but I can thank the man for telling me and showing me how to be a real man in life and not a "sissy." I remember quite well back in my younger days he constantly critiqued me on everything I wasn't doing: not able to tie a tie, not able to do anything on my own, etc. and calling me out as a sissy if I ever showed emotion. Now I'm sure these days our effeminates would call such a thing "cruel behavior" by a grandfather towards his grandson but to me it was the perfect rearing in this world I needed to become the strong man I became today. It reflects the values of an older culture that would look in horror and disgust at today's boys (including our grown-up "men") running around whining and showing emotion. The man never hugged me (and I would never do such a thing to my boys either) but it's what he has done for me that has helped me out the most in this world: how to be a strong man who can survive life by manly strength and willpower.
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There is literally nothing wrong with showing emotion. I do not know how your grand-dad even came to that conclusion. :laugh1:
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There is literally nothing wrong with showing emotion. I do not know how your grand-dad even came to that conclusion. :laugh1:
There is something definitely wroing with a man showing emotion, but I realize I am speaking to a generation of wimps who whine and cry about everything to not getting an award to breaking their cellphone. :rolleyes:
You know I always have to look with great embarassment upon men who "reveal" their emotions in public.
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There is literally nothing wrong with showing emotion. I do not know how your grand-dad even came to that conclusion. :laugh1:
There is something definitely wroing with a man showing emotion, but I realize I am speaking to a generation of wimps who whine and cry about everything to not getting an award to breaking their cellphone. :rolleyes:
You know I always have to look with great embarassment upon men who "reveal" their emotions in public.
What is wrong with showing emotion? I guess laughing is bad? Crying? What if your wife/mother/close person died. Would you not show emotion?
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What is wrong with showing emotion? I guess laughing is bad? Crying? What if your wife/mother/close person died. Would you not show emotion?
Laughing is not bad as long as it is a mutually funny incident. Yes crying is bad however of course one would show emotion upon a death in the family. We're speaking of crying over trivial and non-important things.
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There is literally nothing wrong with showing emotion. I do not know how your grand-dad even came to that conclusion. :laugh1:
There is something definitely wroing with a man showing emotion, but I realize I am speaking to a generation of wimps who whine and cry about everything to not getting an award to breaking their cellphone. :rolleyes:
You know I always have to look with great embarassment upon men who "reveal" their emotions in public.
Well, you would not want to be around me then. I am thoroughly Irish. We can cry over a sad song.
I am trying to take this seriously, becasue i generally want to show emotion by cheering your posts on politics, but suggesting that there is something wrong with being moved is just silly.
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What is wrong with showing emotion? I guess laughing is bad? Crying? What if your wife/mother/close person died. Would you not show emotion?
Laughing is not bad as long as it is a mutually funny incident. Yes crying is bad however of course one would show emotion upon a death in the family. We're speaking of crying over trivial and non-important things.
Oh...
I kinda disagree with you. I actually believe the people of this generation need to show there EMOTIONS MORE OFTEN.
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There is literally nothing wrong with showing emotion. I do not know how your grand-dad even came to that conclusion. :laugh1:
There is something definitely wroing with a man showing emotion, but I realize I am speaking to a generation of wimps who whine and cry about everything to not getting an award to breaking their cellphone. :rolleyes:
You know I always have to look with great embarassment upon men who "reveal" their emotions in public.
This doesn't really make any sense without further qualification. Crying is not "wrong." It is the outward expression of sorrow, just as laughing is the outward expression of hilarity or joy. It depends entirely on what someone is crying about or laughing it. And even at that, the crime isn't so much the outward expression itself, but the inward disposition that one may have that allows him to find sorrow over something that he shouldn't, or to find joy or hilarity in something he shouldn't.
Our Lord cried at Gethsemane. The Jєωs laughed at Him. See?
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Our Lord cried at Gethsemane. The Jєωs laughed at Him. See?
Our Lord cried because of the burden and sorrow of the sin of the world and because of the massive task that had to be accomplished because of original sin (i.e. being nalied to the Cross). It had nothing to do with a trivial concern like not winning a trophy for some championship or because your parents yell at you.
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I am trying to take this seriously, becasue i generally want to show emotion by cheering your posts on politics,
That seems rather strange since I thought a few people on here consider me an evil fascist, nαzι, racist, reactionary, homophobe, etc. who is just so cold and uncaring and hateful towards everyone in the world and would never get married. :wink:
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Summa Theologica II-II, 154, 11:
I answer that, As stated above (A6,9) wherever there occurs a special kind of deformity whereby the venereal act is rendered unbecoming, there is a determinate species of lust. This may occur in two ways: First, through being contrary to right reason, and this is common to all lustful vices; secondly, because, in addition, it is contrary to the natural order of the venereal act as becoming to the human race: and this is called "the unnatural vice." This may happen in several ways. First, by procuring pollution, without any copulation, for the sake of venereal pleasure: this pertains to the sin of "uncleanness" which some call "effeminacy." Secondly, by copulation with a thing of undue species, and this is called "bestiality." Thirdly, by copulation with an undue sex, male with male, or female with female, as the Apostle states (Rm. 1:27): and this is called the "vice of sodomy." Fourthly, by not observing the natural manner of copulation, either as to undue means, or as to other monstrous and bestial manners of copulation.
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I was about to say, "but this topic is about effeminacy" then Zeitun came up with that quote. Very interesting. I had only thought about it terms of outward mannerisms. The definition is much wider.
I did a search and came up with this from the Summa http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm :
Article 1. Whether effeminacy is opposed to perseverance?
Effeminacy: Mollities, literally 'softness'
Objection 1. It seems that effeminacy is not opposed to perseverance. For a gloss on 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind," expounds the text thus: "Effeminate--i.e. obscene, given to unnatural vice." But this is opposed to chastity. Therefore effeminacy is not a vice opposed to perseverance.
Click the link and read on for the answer.
Trad guy: A real man can show, and control, his emotions.
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Our Lord cried at Gethsemane. The Jєωs laughed at Him. See?
Our Lord cried because of the burden and sorrow of the sin of the world and because of the massive task that had to be accomplished because of original sin (i.e. being nalied to the Cross). It had nothing to do with a trivial concern like not winning a trophy for some championship or because your parents yell at you.
Which is exactly why I said that your quote makes no sense without further qualification.
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Our Lord cried at Gethsemane. The Jєωs laughed at Him. See?
Our Lord cried because of the burden and sorrow of the sin of the world and because of the massive task that had to be accomplished because of original sin (i.e. being nalied to the Cross). It had nothing to do with a trivial concern like not winning a trophy for some championship or because your parents yell at you.
Which is exactly why I said that your quote makes no sense without further qualification.
I get what you're saying traditional guy. It is unmanly to weep into hysterics over trivial matters. And a good bit of your grandfather's wisdom is due to cultural adherence as well. No men in my family ever cry. They're just not excessively emotional. They do have emotions which run very deeply, but they'd prefer to find a solution to it, or deal with it privately than to make a display of it. That's just their way. I don't think it has a whole lot to do with manliness except from a cultural perspective.
I have to admit that I dig the strong, silent type. A man who just does what needs doing, isn't overly chatty or frivolous, and for heaven's sake knows how to take care of his family without constantly complaining about it. There's where I think you and I see eye to eye. We both agree that a man should be tough, observant, resourceful, knowledgeable and shrewd in dealing with others.
Not speaking strictly on effeminate men, but my great grandmother used to say "Better to be silent and though a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it." So I think maybe when it comes to effeminate men, a lot of their problem is that they tend to advertise the fact. It's just mannerisms, and those are changeable. If a man doesn't want to be perceived as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, don't act like a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.
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I have a better question:
How to treat overly MACHO guys. They are almost worse then extremely effeminate men.
How do you describe an overly macho guy? How can they be worse than extremely effeminate men? At the very least, it is a mortal sin of scandal and bad example to be an extremely effeminate man. At worst it is ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance.
I see an extremely effeminate man at my church and I'm instantly on the alert for mine and all the children and young adults around me.
(P.S.- are you a man or a woman?)
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I also don't understand what an "overly macho" guy would be? I'm guessing it would be someone who is boastful or prideful and/or brags about sɛҳuąƖ sins with women? That's a different kind of sin than effeminacy, I guess?
I have a better question:
How to treat overly MACHO guys. They are almost worse then extremely effeminate men.
How do you describe an overly macho guy? How can they be worse than extremely effeminate men? At the very least, it is a mortal sin of scandal and bad example to be an extremely effeminate man. At worst it is ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance.
I see an extremely effeminate man at my church and I'm instantly on the alert for mine and all the children and young adults around me.
(P.S.- are you a man or a woman?)
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I have a better question:
How to treat overly MACHO guys. They are almost worse then extremely effeminate men.
How do you describe an overly macho guy? How can they be worse than extremely effeminate men? At the very least, it is a mortal sin of scandal and bad example to be an extremely effeminate man. At worst it is ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance.
I see an extremely effeminate man at my church and I'm instantly on the alert for mine and all the children and young adults around me.
(P.S.- are you a man or a woman?)
I also don't understand what an "overly macho" guy would be? I'm guessing it would be someone who is boastful or prideful and/or brags about sɛҳuąƖ sins with women? That's a different kind of sin than effeminacy, I guess?
I have a better question:
How to treat overly MACHO guys. They are almost worse then extremely effeminate men.
How do you describe an overly macho guy? How can they be worse than extremely effeminate men? At the very least, it is a mortal sin of scandal and bad example to be an extremely effeminate man. At worst it is ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance.
I see an extremely effeminate man at my church and I'm instantly on the alert for mine and all the children and young adults around me.
(P.S.- are you a man or a woman?)
I am a man.
MACHO = The kinda guy who is afraid of anything even slightly feminine and trys way tooooo hard to be "manly".
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Scriptures are CLEAR on men who are "disobedient, vain talkers,..seducers" and other untamed, uncivilized, and ungodly men. Flip open to almost any page: WHAM! "Don't be THIS" or "DO be that".
I just flipped to Titus, and while it's talking about elders of the Church, the positive qualities men should strive for are "not proud, not subject to anger, not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre: But given to hospitality, gentle, sober, just, holy, continent: Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine, and to convince the gainsayers. For there are also many disobedient, vain talkers, and seducers: especially they who are of the circuмcision: Who must be reproved, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of them a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slothful bellies. This testimony is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jєωιѕн fables and commandments of men, who turn themselves away from the truth. All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate." (St. Paul's Epistle to Titus, ch. 1)
There's more of course, but it's fairly clear that revilers (the one I was looking for and can't FIND, of course) and braggarts, the "overly macho" men, aren't of God.
Unless they're prophets or something like Samson, who God fashions for a reason (in that case, I suppose to take out a bunch of Philistines.)
ggreg: yes I know that effeminate is quite a card. Maybe it's some kind of cultural ...no, I can't explain it. He's very devout during Mass, but at coffee hour...? At a party? Woah. I definitely pray for him. I might be reading him all wrong though and I'm the one in sin for ...well, a man shouldn't jump on a chair and leave the women and children to fend for themselves. This is a hard case for us. I can imagine him becoming a grumpy old man and losing some of his "affectations." :pray:
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I am trying to take this seriously, becasue i generally want to show emotion by cheering your posts on politics,
That seems rather strange since I thought a few people on here consider me an evil fascist, nαzι, racist, reactionary, homophobe, etc. who is just so cold and uncaring and hateful towards everyone in the world and would never get married. :wink:
Oh come on now. You are only one or two of those things. Or maybe three. Perhaps four on a bad day. :smile: :wink: