Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Domingo Banez on February 28, 2023, 02:09:05 AM
-
My spiritual director told me he thinks I’m called to marriage. I’m currently finishing up my BA but I wonder how much I’d need to make to support a family.
I’ve looked at the MIT Living Wage Calculator but their estimates seem extreme. They say that a family of 5( with one parent at home) would need an income of around 86k. Is this accurate? I want to have a large family but worry about finances.
-
My spiritual director told me he thinks I’m called to marriage. I’m currently finishing up my BA but I wonder how much I’d need to make to support a family.
I’ve looked at the MIT Living Wage Calculator but their estimates seem extreme. They say that a family of 5( with one parent at home) would need an income of around 86k. Is this accurate? I want to have a large family but worry about finances.
I think that there are many variants. Here are some things to consider:
1. When you first get married you can survive on less than a large family might need.
2. Where you live makes a difference.
3. If you live frugally and buy clothes from thrift stores and/or make some of your own clothes and have a garden this can help your costs.
4. Homeschooling vs. sending children to private schools can change your budget a lot.
5. Renting or buying a small vs. big house to live in. If you buy a house that is a fixer upper it might not be perfect but you might be able to get it for cheaper and fix it over time.
6. Is your prospective spouse frugal?
I have known many people to make $50k when they first got married. Most people eventually made more though to help support their families once they got larger. Back in the day once a young man was 10-12 he had a summer job to help support himself and his family and daughters were helping around the house with cooking cleaning and sewing. If you can implement that into your family it might also help.
-
Honestly, don’t worry too much about it. I make way less the MIT chart says, and we get by. I have 4 kids, soon to be 5, with the oldest being 7. When things have gotten tight something has always come up that has gotten us through. Last year some side work almost miraculously fell into my lap that allowed me to make $5k cash in 4 days. There have been multiple examples like this in the last few years. Go without entertainment and certain comforts, live frugally, and most of all trust in the Lords provision.
-
Honestly, don’t worry too much about it. I make way less the MIT chart says, and we get by. I have 4 kids, soon to be 5, with the oldest being 7. When things have gotten tight something has always come up that has gotten us through. Last year some side work almost miraculously fell into my lap that allowed me to make $5k cash in 4 days. There have been multiple examples like this in the last few years. Go without entertainment and certain comforts, live frugally, and most of all trust in the Lords provision.
Although not a man, this was also my first reaction to the OP. Also, one does not know how many children God will bless them with during their married life (if any). Focus on finding a responsible, mature spouse first. And let go and let God.
-
Pay more attention to married Trad men who are doing it...and less attention to things like the MIT calculator. Those figures are crazy in my experience. They say each child costs a million dollars to raise to 18. News to me! I have 9 kids.
-
I was making $67k at my previous job, and once we got out of debt it was PLENTY to provide for my family.
-
In my 25 years of experience of raising a family, these are items that can keep you in debt
1. Catholic private school - if homeschool is not doable for you, then prepare to go into debt or finding additional means of income, especially if you send them away to board. For a few years I had $30K private school annual bill. Let's just say you don't always get what you paid for.
2. Eating out
3. Man has no clear career direction, no savings, any debt. The man should be well established in his career: no school/credit debt, homeowner, savings, etc.
4. Not living near relatives - you will find yourself in situations that will hit your finances harder since you don't have family nearby. Even an unexpected plane trip could cost you $1000.
5. Not marrying a thrifty wife. My wife finds way to make things go farther but I wished she would use coupons.
-
I don’t make what MIT says is needed for a family of 5, and I support a family of 9 (7 children, ages 8 mths to 12 yrs). We live very happily.
That’s not to say there shouldn’t be any concern about having a sufficient income for marriage; just that modern calculators will leave you overly concerned. Though, I will acknowledge that my family has been blessed in many ways outside of our control, and circuмstances do seem to make it more difficult to marry and start supporting a family now, then when I did in 2009. The most obvious example is buying a home for the first time in 2009, compared to now.
Comrade made some good points.
-
Lots of variables, and one to pay close attention to is cost of living in different parts of the country.
-
My spiritual director told me he thinks I’m called to marriage. I’m currently finishing up my BA but I wonder how much I’d need to make to support a family.
I’ve looked at the MIT Living Wage Calculator but their estimates seem extreme. They say that a family of 5( with one parent at home) would need an income of around 86k. Is this accurate? I want to have a large family but worry about finances.
MIT?? More like JEW... IT
-
God will provide. What you NEED, not necessarily what you want. And going back to that discussion on Human Respect -- God won't shield you from having to be humble -- pick up (perfectly good) things being given/thrown away, accepting donations, hand-me-downs, etc. Why would God shield you from an opportunity to practice such an important virtue?
My wife and I intentionally lived below our means for many years, basically "pretending" we were poorer than we were, at least according to the world's standards. What I'm saying is: if you decide debt is not an option, you seem that much "poorer" to the average Modern. If you need to have a few thousand cushion and no debt, you say "I'm broke" or at least "We can't afford that." but for most people that would mean their credit card limit has been reached!
But yes, those worldly "calculators" and foolishness that passes for wisdom -- that's an obvious attempt to discourage and propagandize Trad Catholics from having the family and children God would send them.
I've seldom made more than $50K annually my entire LIFE -- just 3 years did my income exceed that. We have 9 children and acreage (not in the boonies either). My only "secrets" have been: debt-free lifestyle, diligence (hard work), frugality, and maybe the natural brains/talent that got me a $50K-ish income without college. We don't even know what a cut-off notice LOOKS LIKE from any of our utilities. We have lived a frugal and debt-free lifestyle from the beginning.
I credit Thomas A. Nelson for teaching me about the true nature of money, debt, the JQ, etc. when I was a young teen during catechism classes. I realized that if I wanted to live like no one else (wife staying at home, having a large family, etc.) then I'd have to do something different than the average Joe. SOMETHING would have to give. Either I had to win the lottery, or do something else to set myself apart. You don't get to be "special" just because your Mom loves you. Everyone has that. You need to have something going for you, something different, that says that YOU get to be the lucky guy whose wife gets to stay home, and raise a much larger family than most. Frugality and consistent living below-my-means was that "something different".
A young couple really has to treat it like a war, a game, or something along those lines. You have to be wise as serpents. Be clever, find ways to fix things, save money, do with less, and what not. You have to put some effort into it, but it's WELL WORTH IT.
I can't emphasize enough the importance of choosing a GOOD, VIRTUOUS, FRUGAL woman for your wife. That's got to be a huge cross for many guys -- you work hard slaving for the man, and she spends on on "stupid s****". So many modern women do, including many Catholics and even Trad Catholics I'm sure. Too many clothes, shoes, MAKEUP, Jєωelry, travel, and countless other ways to fritter away your resources. Yes, a frugal, down-to-earth woman is a HUGE blessing, and MORE THAN MAKES UP for lots of perfect figure and symmetrical face. I'm saying "If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife..." Choose a woman that isn't so hotly contested for. She'll keep you happier, take better care of the household and children -- you'll be much happier in the end, trust me. Looks fade.
God provides differently for each person. Some he provides brains. Some, skills. Some, luck. Some, family and/or friends. Some, inheritance. Some, ambition/drive/a good career. Some, diligence. At any rate, you're not going to starve if you trust in God and do His will. Just be prudent. God gave you a brain and a body capable of X amount of work and diligence. Use that TIME and ENERGY wisely to arrange your life rationally and intelligently. Be a human, not an animal.
-
I was making 35K when I got married in 2000. Between second jobs, side gigs, God always provided pretty much exactly what I needed at any given time ... literally not a penny more some of the time (as sometimes found myself digging change out of couches to buy something I needed). My brother got married making about $12 an hour in 1993. Both of us, along with our wives, always refused to use NFP (despite my brother getting pressure form his father-in-law), welcomed whatever children God wished to send us, and God has provided. When my brother was about to outgrow his little apartment, and wasn't sure how they'd handle his third child in that tiny space, a little investment he had made in a penny stock mysteriously took off, and he made enough to buy his (very nice) house outright. I've found (or, rather, God found me) one job after another that I wasn't really qualified for but that I grew into, so that I'm doing very well now. Somehow, with a degree in Greek and Latin, I'm now a Software Architect (have a job title of "Chief Architect") ... and most of my skills were honed when I was 10 years old teaching myself how to program in BASIC on an old Atari 400. Computers were really expensive, and my Dad was never one to spend any money, but for some reason he bought this computer for us on impulse (something he never did). Little did I know, until 20+ years later, that this impulse buy would affect the rest of my life from a material standpoint.
Bottom line. If we trust God and do His will, He'll provide what we need. I've never heard of anyone in the US dying of starvation. People always help. There are always charities. And of course our tax dollars pay for public assistance that can be had. This is proper public assistance ... not the kind where people refuse to work and want to sponge off the public, but for families who've hit a hard time here or there. We're in a different time now, of course, than the American dream era, from the 1950s on, where anyone who graduated High School could get a job that sufficed to raise a family. I grew up next door to a man who could barely speak English, but who got a job at an aluminum factory. He bought a house next door to ours, raised a family, and retired with a million-dollar pension ... but probably could barely add 2+2. He just had to work, and he did. But even though that era is long gone, God still takes care of us and will provide. He asked us to welcome children in our marriage, and if we do so, He'll take care of what's needed. There's no guarantee, of course, and we could always end up starving to death one day ... if / when things get worse ... but all of that is still completely under His control, and He has good reasons for it all.
I recall one time when my wife was upset about a $20 bill she had misplaced, and she was getting all bent out of shape over it. I told her, "It's only money. God takes care of us." No sooner had I finished the sentence, when the doorbell rang. It was someone who had borrowed $20 I had forgotten about, there to give me the money. I closed the door, turned to my wife, and handed her the $20.
-
God will provide. What you NEED, not necessarily what you want. And going back to that discussion on Human Respect -- God won't shield you from having to be humble -- pick up (perfectly good) things being given/thrown away, accepting donations, hand-me-downs, etc. Why would God shield you from an opportunity to practice such an important virtue?
My wife and I intentionally lived below our means for many years, basically "pretending" we were poorer than we were, at least according to the world's standards. What I'm saying is: if you decide debt is not an option, you seem that much "poorer" to the average Modern. If you need to have a few thousand cushion and no debt, you say "I'm broke" or at least "We can't afford that." but for most people that would mean their credit card limit has been reached!
But yes, those worldly "calculators" and foolishness that passes for wisdom -- that's an obvious attempt to discourage and propagandize Trad Catholics from having the family and children God would send them.
I've seldom made more than $50K annually my entire LIFE -- just 3 years did my income exceed that. We have 9 children and acreage (not in the boonies either). My only "secrets" have been: debt-free lifestyle, diligence (hard work), frugality, and maybe the natural brains/talent that got me a $50K-ish income without college. We don't even know what a cut-off notice LOOKS LIKE from any of our utilities. We have lived a frugal and debt-free lifestyle from the beginning.
I credit Thomas A. Nelson for teaching me about the true nature of money, debt, the JQ, etc. when I was a young teen during catechism classes. I realized that if I wanted to live like no one else (wife staying at home, having a large family, etc.) then I'd have to do something different than the average Joe. SOMETHING would have to give. Either I had to win the lottery, or do something else to set myself apart. You don't get to be "special" just because your Mom loves you. Everyone has that. You need to have something going for you, something different, that says that YOU get to be the lucky guy whose wife gets to stay home, and raise a much larger family than most. Frugality and consistent living below-my-means was that "something different".
A young couple really has to treat it like a war, a game, or something along those lines. You have to be wise as serpents. Be clever, find ways to fix things, save money, do with less, and what not. You have to put some effort into it, but it's WELL WORTH IT.
I can't emphasize enough the importance of choosing a GOOD, VIRTUOUS, FRUGAL woman for your wife. That's got to be a huge cross for many guys -- you work hard slaving for the man, and she spends on on "stupid s****". So many modern women do, including many Catholics and even Trad Catholics I'm sure. Too many clothes, shoes, MAKEUP, Jєωelry, travel, and countless other ways to fritter away your resources. Yes, a frugal, down-to-earth woman is a HUGE blessing, and MORE THAN MAKES UP for lots of perfect figure and symmetrical face. I'm saying "If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife..." Choose a woman that isn't so hotly contested for. She'll keep you happier, take better care of the household and children -- you'll be much happier in the end, trust me. Looks fade.
God provides differently for each person. Some he provides brains. Some, skills. Some, luck. Some, family and/or friends. Some, inheritance. Some, ambition/drive/a good career. Some, diligence. At any rate, you're not going to starve if you trust in God and do His will. Just be prudent. God gave you a brain and a body capable of X amount of work and diligence. Use that TIME and ENERGY wisely to arrange your life rationally and intelligently. Be a human, not an animal.
This is very well said.
-
and most of my skills were honed when I was 10 years old teaching myself how to program in BASIC on an old Atari 400. Computers were really expensive, and my Dad was never one to spend any money, but for some reason he bought this computer for us on impulse (something he never did). Little did I know, until 20+ years later, that this impulse buy would affect the rest of my life from a material standpoint.
Same here!
I grew up very poor. My dad got a small settlement for having his knee permanently damaged at work -- we're talking no more than $4,000. Yeah, he must not have had a good lawyer. Anyhow, I was strongly attracted to computer programming from age 7 when I first saw one at school. I knew that's what I wanted to be when I grew up. But I couldn't get my hands on a computer at all. There were no used options, garage sale computers, raspberry pi, none of that. Computers were super expensive and beyond my family's price range. Believe me, I checked the classifieds (in the newspaper) and we couldn't even afford a used one. Also, we had no friends or relatives with a PC either, that I could borrow or even "use at their house". I spent 8 years in that state. I was so desperate, I even wrote BASIC programs on notebook paper, looking forward to the day I could type them into a computer!
Thanks to that settlement, we ended up finally getting our first PC in 1992, when I was about 15. I think it was $1200. It was an older closeout deal, a computer package. A Laser 386sx 20 MHz with 2 MB RAM, 100 MB hard drive, no multimedia (no sound card or CD-ROM), 14" color monitor, dot-matrix printer, and a modem *that you had to install* and by install, I don't mean pop it in and it's done. No, you had to be a super nerd to install it. I had to have a classmate install it before it would work! The computer had DOS and Windows 3.1. I never booted Windows 3.1, since it was fluff garbage, and quite slow on our severely underpowered PC. All my computer time was spent in DOS.
As soon as I found Qbasic on that PC, that was all I ever did. Then I signed up for my first programming course in High School (they wouldn't let you take it until Sophomore year) and I borrowed the Quick Pascal 1.0 install disks and installed that at home. Then I switched to Pascal. I wrote SO MANY games (text, DOS) during that couple years, basically I taught myself to program. It was so simple and 2-dimensional back then. No complex libraries, no repositories, multiple versions, no APIs, none of that. That's what I fell in love with.
But I thought the same thing as you -- what if my parents hadn't provided me that PC? Would I still have had a way to make a living? I did by my own first PC only a few years later (went into debt actually -- one of those "6 months no interest" deals at Best Buy) so maybe that would have been God's backup plan, if my folks hadn't cooperated.
But still, you only have so many years in school, at home, with tons of free time to leisurely explore and really learn DEEPLY certain skills. Once that time is gone, it never returns. It's never the same once you're an adult, with sweethearts, families, spouses, full time work, etc.
-
I was making 35K when I got married in 2000. Between second jobs, side gigs, God always provided pretty much exactly what I needed at any given time ... literally not a penny more some of the time (as sometimes found myself digging change out of couches to buy something I needed). My brother got married making about $12 an hour in 1993. Both of us, along with our wives, always refused to use NFP (despite my brother getting pressure form his father-in-law), welcomed whatever children God wished to send us, and God has provided. When my brother was about to outgrow his little apartment, and wasn't sure how they'd handle his third child in that tiny space, a little investment he had made in a penny stock mysteriously took off, and he made enough to buy his (very nice) house outright. I've found (or, rather, God found me) one job after another that I wasn't really qualified for but that I grew into, so that I'm doing very well now. Somehow, with a degree in Greek and Latin, I'm now a Software Architect (have a job title of "Chief Architect") ... and most of my skills were honed when I was 10 years old teaching myself how to program in BASIC on an old Atari 400. Computers were really expensive, and my Dad was never one to spend any money, but for some reason he bought this computer for us on impulse (something he never did). Little did I know, until 20+ years later, that this impulse buy would affect the rest of my life from a material standpoint.
Bottom line. If we trust God and do His will, He'll provide what we need. I've never heard of anyone in the US dying of starvation. People always help. There are always charities. And of course our tax dollars pay for public assistance that can be had. This is proper public assistance ... not the kind where people refuse to work and want to sponge off the public, but for families who've hit a hard time here or there. We're in a different time now, of course, than the American dream era, from the 1950s on, where anyone who graduated High School could get a job that sufficed to raise a family. I grew up next door to a man who could barely speak English, but who got a job at an aluminum factory. He bought a house next door to ours, raised a family, and retired with a million-dollar pension ... but probably could barely add 2+2. He just had to work, and he did. But even though that era is long gone, God still takes care of us and will provide. He asked us to welcome children in our marriage, and if we do so, He'll take care of what's needed. There's no guarantee, of course, and we could always end up starving to death one day ... if / when things get worse ... but all of that is still completely under His control, and He has good reasons for it all.
I recall one time when my wife was upset about a $20 bill she had misplaced, and she was getting all bent out of shape over it. I told her, "It's only money. God takes care of us." No sooner had I finished the sentence, when the doorbell rang. It was someone who had borrowed $20 I had forgotten about, there to give me the money. I closed the door, turned to my wife, and handed her the $20.
Very wise advice. I've found that the worst things that have happened to me have been due to my own distrust in Providence. I may have lost a job out of zeal that supported us well, but Providentially, things are working out now to continue to provide for our needs with my new wage being close to that of my old. Our move south is lining up well, I have more money coming from my separation benefit, a job lined up, home pre-approval, and even moving our possessions can be piggy-backed into my father-in-law's company-provided moving benefits for their move. There's even a Byzantine Catholic church a reasonable distance from where we're looking to move.
Seek first the Kingdom, trust in God, and He will provide temporally if it is best for our souls.
-
Same here!
I grew up very poor. My dad got a small settlement for having his knee permanently damaged at work -- we're talking no more than $4,000. Yeah, he must not have had a good lawyer. Anyhow, I was strongly attracted to computer programming from age 7 when I first saw one at school. I knew that's what I wanted to be when I grew up. But I couldn't get my hands on a computer at all. There were no used options, garage sale computers, raspberry pi, none of that. Computers were super expensive and beyond my family's price range. Believe me, I checked the classifieds (in the newspaper) and we couldn't even afford a used one. Also, we had no friends or relatives with a PC either, that I could borrow or even "use at their house". I spent 8 years in that state. I was so desperate, I even wrote BASIC programs on notebook paper, looking forward to the day I could type them into a computer!
Thanks to that settlement, we ended up finally getting our first PC in 1992, when I was about 15. I think it was $1200. It was an older closeout deal, a computer package. A Laser 386sx 20 MHz with 2 MB RAM, 100 MB hard drive, no multimedia (no sound card or CD-ROM), 14" color monitor, dot-matrix printer, and a modem *that you had to install* and by install, I don't mean pop it in and it's done. No, you had to be a super nerd to install it. I had to have a classmate install it before it would work! The computer had DOS and Windows 3.1. I never booted Windows 3.1, since it was fluff garbage, and quite slow on our severely underpowered PC. All my computer time was spent in DOS.
As soon as I found Qbasic on that PC, that was all I ever did. Then I signed up for my first programming course in High School (they wouldn't let you take it until Sophomore year) and I borrowed the Quick Pascal 1.0 install disks and installed that at home. Then I switched to Pascal. I wrote SO MANY games (text, DOS) during that couple years, basically I taught myself to program. It was so simple and 2-dimensional back then. No complex libraries, no repositories, multiple versions, no APIs, none of that. That's what I fell in love with.
But I thought the same thing as you -- what if my parents hadn't provided me that PC? Would I still have had a way to make a living? I did by my own first PC only a few years later (went into debt actually -- one of those "6 months no interest" deals at Best Buy) so maybe that would have been God's backup plan, if my folks hadn't cooperated.
But still, you only have so many years in school, at home, with tons of free time to leisurely explore and really learn DEEPLY certain skills. Once that time is gone, it never returns. It's never the same once you're an adult, with sweethearts, families, spouses, full time work, etc.
Yes, it seems as though we have very similar stories, having spent time at seminary and then getting into programming. After seminary, I did want to become a professor or teacher (High School) of Greek and Latin, so I went to grad school and finished the coureswork toward the Ph.D. I had taken side jobs teaching at public High School (Latin), but it was a horrible experience, and I wasn't really teaching anything as only one or two kids actually wanted to learn. But I also realized that I couldn't make enough money at a "Catholic" High School to raise a familiy. So High School was out. Then I was put off by the prospect of needing another 3-4 years to take the two sets of exams and do the disseration that would be required to get the Ph.D. The Catholic University of America had one of the only Greek and Latin graduate programs that allowed you to specialize in Patristic Greek/Latin and Medieval Latin, but the downside was that they insisted on your taking two sets of exams, one for Classical, the other for Patristic/Medieval ... each of which by itself required proficiency in a reading list that would by itself suffices for an ordinary Ph.D. So double the work. At which point, I switched over to programming.
So I got this Atari 400 in 1978. But all it came with to save data was a literal magnetic cassette tape (the same tapes you'd record music on). It would take an hour to save out a few kilobytes of work, and an hour to restore it. I spent nearly the entirety of one summer working on a computer game, and at the end of each day, I would "save" the work. I got up one morning only to realize that my work wouldn't restore from tape. I tried repeatedly, tried cleaning the tape ... to no avail. So I had lost weeks' worth of work. At that point, I wanted to save up for a Floppy Drive. This was an external drive that was the size of small DVD player today, that used 5 1/4" Floppies. This thing cost $250, so I had to save my lunch money for months to pay for it. You can get one of those later (while they were still being made) for about $10. Today you can get a thumbdrive with 1TB on it for $20. Before I got a proper programming job, I worked repairing computers, and occasionally we had to swap our old hard drives. These things were the size of a 3-4 large suitcases stacked on top of one another, and they held a whopping 40MB of data. Of course, a lot of the original games required only 16-32K of RAM to run. And some of the programmers did amazing things with that amount of memory.
-
I quickly crossed off "teaching" from my career possibilities, post-seminary.
I had heard from other ex-seminarians (let's face it, many are "teacher material") that you simply couldn't earn a living wage as a teacher, especially in an SSPX school.
I took his word for it, and never looked into it for myself.
It's a great topic for another thread: how an increasing number of objectively important, useful, great skills are USELESS for career purposes. No one reads anymore, so writing a book, even a good one, wouldn't support you. And so on. History, music, poetry, singing, pretty much anything Liberal Arts UNLESS you want to go into teaching/academia.
-
I quickly crossed off "teaching" from my career possibilities, post-seminary.
I had heard from other ex-seminarians (let's face it, many are "teacher material") that you simply couldn't earn a living wage as a teacher, especially in an SSPX school.
I took his word for it, and never looked into it for myself.
It's a great topic for another thread: how an increasing number of objectively important, useful, great skills are USELESS for career purposes. No one reads anymore, so writing a book, even a good one, wouldn't support you. And so on. History, music, poetry, singing, pretty much anything Liberal Arts UNLESS you want to go into teaching/academia.
Not only at SSPX schools, but NO Catholic schools either. Public school "teachers" could do well after some years ... but there was no actual teaching going on there. Since they were public employees, their salaries were posted online, and there was a Kindergarten teacher in the suburb I lived in at the time making well over 6 figures after 30 years of seniority. It's all unionized that way.
4-year universities / colleges are a TOTAL SCAM. I could go on for hours about that, but probably digressed on this thread enough already.
-
You don't get to be "special" just because your Mom loves you.
My mother would disagree. :laugh2:
Of course, a lot of the original games required only 16-32K of RAM to run. And some of the programmers did amazing things with that amount of memory.
Some of the best games ever created were arcade or Nintendo, with this file size.
I've found that the worst things that have happened to me have been due to my own distrust in Providence.
Great advice.
God will provide. What you NEED, not necessarily what you want....God provides differently for each person....Just be prudent.
This sums it all up.
Prudence + Patience + Providence = Success. Applies to both temporal and spiritual matters.
-
Lol the calculator maxes out at 3 kids.
-
Our Lord doesn’t require you live frugally. He requires you live without sin. As Fr. Novak said many years ago “If God wanted you to sew your own close, milk cows, raise chickens like little house on the Prairie, He’d have created you in 1842. When asked “What are we allowed to do in this world?” St. Don Bosco replied “Anything but sin”.
How much do you need to raise a family depends on how you want to live your life. You may opt to delay starting a family until you are able to provide and live the life you think is best. Many Saints were wealthy and many were poor. Pray to know and follow Gods will. It is only by following His will that you can reach heaven.
-
Lol the calculator maxes out at 3 kids.
Lol probably because these sorts of calculations are built around overindulgence in luxuries. Most people these days will go into debt to have nice cars, or RVs, or boats and then claim they can't afford more than 2 kids.
-
Lol probably because these sorts of calculations are built around overindulgence in luxuries. Most people these days will go into debt to have nice cars, or RVs, or boats and then claim they can't afford more than 2 kids.
Don't forget vacations several times per year.
I recall that there was a Q & A section of the EWTN website where somebody posted an obviously-tongue-in-cheek satirical/sarcastic question. Poster wanted to know whether it was OK to use NFP because if they had another child, they could not afford to send the child to an Ivy League school. Shockingly, the "priest" who answered the question said that this would be OK.
-
Our Lord doesn’t require you live frugally. He requires you live without sin. As Fr. Novak said many years ago “If God wanted you to sew your own close, milk cows, raise chickens like little house on the Prairie, He’d have created you in 1842. When asked “What are we allowed to do in this world?” St. Don Bosco replied “Anything but sin”.
How much do you need to raise a family depends on how you want to live your life. You may opt to delay starting a family until you are able to provide and live the life you think is best. Many Saints were wealthy and many were poor. Pray to know and follow Gods will. It is only by following His will that you can reach heaven.
You missed the point ... entirely. If by opting to "delay" starting a family you mean, NFP after marriage, then negatory. If you mean waiting until you've save away something financial, of course you can. But God sometimes brings the right person into your life before then, and circuмstances differ for everyone. Question wasn't whether you COULD wait, but whether you were REQUIRED to wait. So you swung and missed several times in a single response.
As for living extravagantly, of course it's not sinful by itself, but it's contrary to the evangelical counsels and militates against perfection, our true goal in life. If we spend a lot of money on frivolities while our neighbors suffer from great need, will we be judged as those who when Our Lord was hungry, we did not give him to eat? While it's possible for the rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Our Lord said it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
There's a huge range between sewing your own clothes / milking cows and living in a 10-million-dollar mansion while your neighbor is in dire need.
-
Don't forget vacations several times per year.
I recall that there was a Q & A section of the EWTN website where somebody posted an obviously-tongue-in-cheek satirical/sarcastic question. Poster wanted to know whether it was OK to use NFP because if they had another child, they could not afford to send the child to an Ivy League school. Shockingly, the "priest" who answered the question said that this would be OK.
(http://<a href=)(https://i.ibb.co/D4gCpWR/headache.jpg)
-
You may opt to delay starting a family until you are able to provide and live the life you think is best. Many Saints were wealthy and many were poor. Pray to know and follow Gods will. It is only by following His will that you can reach heaven.
You may opt out of the marriage, but to enter marriage with the intention of refusing God's gift of a child would be a slap in the Face of God. You won't necessarily make the grade if you make decisions which are not yours to make.
-
I quickly crossed off "teaching" from my career possibilities, post-seminary.
I had heard from other ex-seminarians (let's face it, many are "teacher material") that you simply couldn't earn a living wage as a teacher, especially in an SSPX school.
I took his word for it, and never looked into it for myself.
.
Teaching traditional Catholic children is not a job, it's an act of charity. To talk about supporting yourself by doing that is like talking about supporting a family by volunteering in a soup kitchen. The people who teach in trad schools are either nuns and priests, or old people living on retirement, or very young people with no family who have zeal for souls and want to devote their time to the formation of youth, and can live at the poverty line. It's definitely not a job in the normal sense of the word.
-
You may opt out of the marriage, but to enter marriage with the intention of refusing God's gift of a child would be a slap in the Face of God. You won't necessarily make the grade if you make decisions which are not yours to make.
Yeah, the "opting to delay a family" remark made me go.... 🤔
-
.
Teaching traditional Catholic children is not a job, it's an act of charity. To talk about supporting yourself by doing that is like talking about supporting a family by volunteering in a soup kitchen. The people who teach in trad schools are either nuns and priests, or old people living on retirement, or very young people with no family who have zeal for souls and want to devote their time to the formation of youth, and can live at the poverty line. It's definitely not a job in the normal sense of the word.
Absolutely true. Three times I was offered a teaching job, once, begged to accept it, but the “salary” if it can be called that, is not even bare survival wages. Two men on the school board suggested I could work another full-time job at night as a home health aid. Between school hours, driving between two jobs, and working both, it still would render me unable to even a shared room in a lodging house. (No meals or cleaning/laundry provided and illegal in the locality). That would leave me with an hour to sleep, eat, shower, etc. And I’d have to do lesson planning and out of school work after Sunday Mass. There was no health insurance at all, so I’d be on Medicaid. Few Doctors accept Medicaid patients and only one hospital that had a terrible record and was 70 miles away. There were no dentists and only one ophthalmologist who worked out of a hospital in the adjacent state. Same problem with the rheumatologist. Someone suggested I board around with school families, a week rotation. The problem is, I was 51 years old, had some health issues and no family to go home to when school wasn’t in session. After awhile, an older lady guest in the house is a burden. IOW, I’d have no permanent residence. If it didn’t work out, I’d be bankrupt and homeless. I’m willing to make sacrifices, but this was unreasonable.
It does kind of annoy me when people complain about SSPX teachers. It may be for Our Lord, but the workman is still worthy of his hire. You get what you pay for.
-
Pay more attention to married Trad men who are doing it...and less attention to things like the MIT calculator. Those figures are crazy in my experience. They say each child costs a million dollars to raise to 18. News to me! I have 9 kids.
As a young man, I find the responses in this thread very encouraging. Though I haven't used that silly calculator, I recall being exposed to a certain absurd video back in 8th grade in which similar claims were made about the cost of raising children. One particularly memorable statistic was that, apparently, the cost of a single child was the same as a Ferrari!
Such lies, along with others that I have encountered on the same subject, made me naturally quite cynical about starting a family. The greatest antidote to this insidious propaganda I can recommend to my fellow young men out there is to meet and pay attention to the married Trad men who "are doing it", as Matthew put it.
Their example will inspire you, and (in the case of those like myself, who were not born into the traditional Faith) you will begin see family life in its proper light and dignity.
I found these two posts on Telegram, and though (from my guessing) they were not written by a Catholic, there is truth in what he writes:
https://t.me/remnantposter/2238 (https://t.me/remnantposter/2238)
The idea that homeschooling isn't viable because "both parents need to work" is a load of BS. Chances are, one of the two parents makes more money. The one who makes less money—usually the woman—should stay home.
If you can't find it in your budget, then something about your budget needs to give. For instance, if you have a big car payment, sell the car. If it's your only car, sell it and use the money to buy a cheaper car outright. Owning a paid-off car is a HUGE pressure release valve. Auto loan debt is one of the biggest sources of personal debt in the US and it's more avoidable than you think it is.
You don't need a new car, or a flashy car. If you drive a pickup truck and you're not using it for your main source of income, you almost certainly don't need it. These guys paying $800/mo for their $70k pickup truck so they can drive it to their office job are the biggest clowns out there. Even if you really needed a vehicle like that, a used one in good working order would do the work just fine. There's no reason it has to be new.
Yeah, I drive a seven year old car. It runs fine and serves our needs. I am not concerned with status BS about having a newer or fancier car, because saving my kids from being brainwashed is more important to me.
There is almost always something you can cut in your budget. Do you go out to eat a lot? Stop that, because it costs you a shocking amount of extra money. Like, hundreds of dollars per month just to eat out once or twice a week, easily. Buy whole ingredients and cook meals at home. Stop buying prepared meals, whether it's a restaurant or the freezer aisle. They're almost always loaded with garbage ingredients anyway.
What about dumb entertainment stuff? Do you have ten different subscriptions for soybug brainrot streaming services? Cancel them, that's another $100/mo right there. And forget about cable. You can get an internet connection for $50/mo and get whatever entertainment you want for free using that.
On top of all this the cost of putting your kids in daycare or private school, along with your higher income taxes, will likely cancel out most of the "extra income" you get from a dual income arrangement anyway.
If your wife makes $50k and you spend $30k of that on private school, or $20k on daycare—conservative estimates, btw—is that really worth the extra few thousand dollars after taxes? Because homeschool is practically free. You might spend a couple thousand per year on materials, but that's preferable to paying strangers to raise your kids for you.
https://t.me/remnantposter/2240 (https://t.me/remnantposter/2240)
Stay at home parents are also free to take care of chores and errands during the day, allowing more time for the family to relax and enjoy each other when the working parent is home for the night or off on the weekend.
Mom can get the shopping and house chores done during the day and when dad comes home, there's no more housework to do. Everyone enjoys each other's company and a good meal. The weekend is free to do whatever the family wants.
Contrast this with the dual income households most Millennials and Zoomers have grown up in; kids are shunted off to school or daycare, parents both rush off to work, house is empty all day, chores and errands don't get done. Now they must be done either after work or on the weekend. Everyone is tired all the time, nobody gets a moment to relax, and the family spends very little time together.
It doesn't take a genius to see why this is horrible for family bonding, and the scientific research bears that out as well. Kids who are cared for by a biological parent have lower levels of stress hormones and fewer emotional development issues than kids who are put in school or daycare with strangers. Families who eat dinner together on a regular basis have less stress, stronger ties, and the kids face lower risks of things like crime, drug abuse, and teen pregnancy. It's the "No Shit" Effect at work; stuff that should be obvious that we don't need studies to prove it, yet it's also nice to be vindicated.
-
The devil will throw every argument at the wall, to see what sticks. He doesn't really care what demoralizes you away from getting married and having a natural-sized family. As long as it happens. Especially if you are Traditional Catholic, the devil doesn't want you reproducing.
It could be the overpopulation myth, evolution, selfishness ("each kid costs as much as a Ferrari"), despair ("Each kid costs 1.8 million to raise to age 18", "All Women Are Like That", "No good/chaste women left") and so forth.
I've even seen, on a secular forum, a meme about "having daughters is the ultimate cuck". Since a man can't control what sex his children will be, this alone could discourage some men from fatherhood. Regardless of what you think of this meme, the fact remains that this is one more piece of crap satan is throwing at the barn wall, to see if it sticks. If it discourages even 1 out of 100 men, then the devil is happy.
About the meme in question: the text, written alongside a screenshot of Pippin (from Lord of the Rings) smoking a pipe, points out that you're just putting in countless time & effort to raise a daughter who will ultimately be some strange man's plaything. Which is TRUE unless you're going to raise her Trad Catholic (or equivalent -- there is no equivalent of course, but you know what I mean). I couldn't imagine wanting my girls to go to public school, dive into Social Media, and "date" according to the rules of the world. Let's just say there's a big difference for ALL PARTIES CONCERNED between sending your daughter off to be a whore at school, and giving her in marriage to an honorable God-fearing man who will marry and take care of her "till death do us part". NOT THE SAME THING. And I also note that this whole meme has incestuous undertones. You are only "cucked" when your *wife* messes around with another man. But I suppose there is investment, and a certain "ownership" in both cases, so the meme has a point. But again, the true answer to that meme is: raise your daughter(s) to be a chaste, God-fearing woman, and you won't have to worry!
-
My 2 youngest sons are unmarried. They aren't even ready to court yet. I was overseas recently and met a nice couple from Poland. When they found out I had 2 single sons the father blurted out excitedly "We have 6 daughters!" I don't think you would see that level of enthusiasm in the US. It's nice to know that some parts of the world still value an American man, even if it isn't here.
-
As a young man, I find the responses in this thread very encouraging. Though I haven't used that silly calculator, I recall being exposed to a certain absurd video back in 8th grade in which similar claims were made about the cost of raising children. One particularly memorable statistic was that, apparently, the cost of a single child was the same as a Ferrari!
Such lies, along with others that I have encountered on the same subject, made me naturally quite cynical about starting a family. The greatest antidote to this insidious propaganda I can recommend to my fellow young men out there is to meet and pay attention to the married Trad men who "are doing it", as Matthew put it.
Their example will inspire you, and (in the case of those like myself, who were not born into the traditional Faith) you will begin see family life in its proper light and dignity.
I found these two posts on Telegram, and though (from my guessing) they were not written by a Catholic, there is truth in what he writes:
From a certain limit, yes, but I think a minimum is needed so that you can afford to support a family with a single salary. An extreme example, for you can understand that I try to tell you: You earn €1,200 tax-free per month in 12 payments, a very common salary in Spain. You live in Madrid, it is true that it is the most expensive Region, but you also have a high percentage of unemployment if you are not a highly qualified and experienced professional, you probably cannot choose where to work. Just the fact of having a job can already cost effort.
Rent a house, in Puente de Vallecas, which is a working-class neighborhood, a lower-class neighborhood, a 50m flat, cost 650€/month.
https://www.pisos.com/alquilar/piso-palomeras_bajas28018-32554599004_108900/
Just renting a basic flat with 2 bedrooms, bathroom, living room and kitchenette, you have already spent more than half of your salary. How do you support a family with this? Above with instability and job insecurity.
I insist, this house in Madrid is one of the cheap ones, in good neighborhoods a house like this exceeds €1,000/month.
I'm only talking about renting, obviously you can't even consider buying a house.
I am not saying that this is the main reason why people don't have children, feminism that destroys relationships between men and women, selfishness, sɛҳuąƖ immorality, substituting children for pets, etc., are also relevant factors. . But when you combine low salaries, job instability, and ridiculously expensive housing, it becomes very difficult to have children.
-
Outside of Madrid, it depends, in Barcelona, the second city with the most job offer, they are the same or more expensive, outside, they can drop something, for example, in Cartagena, a medium-sized city with relatively low prices, you can rent something like that in a Similar neighborhood, working class but without many crime problems, for €400/month:
https://www.fotocasa.es/es/alquiler/vivienda/cartagena/patio-amueblado/176973797/d?from=list
This is more reasonable. Even so, what happens in Spain with housing is insane. And it's a great ballast for those who want to make a family. Not to mention that as your wife wants to divorce and denounces you for "Gender-based Violence" to take an advantage in the divorce, absurd things that happen in Spain due to discriminatory laws against men, you're screwed. So you have to think very very well before getting married here.
-
I think people need to start "going Greek" and live with each other's relatives or co sharing property. 1 out of 15 men at church from the ages 18 - 40 who are in good health and Faith "ready" to be married aint gonna cut it. I'm telling you right now, things need to change.
-
I think people need to start "going Greek" and live with each other's relatives or co sharing property. 1 out of 15 men at church from the ages 18 - 40 who are in good health and Faith "ready" to be married aint gonna cut it. I'm telling you right now, things need to change.
We're doing that right now, and it works out pretty well having an extra hand when we need it.
-
Someone pointed out how insane it was that in the history of civilizations, it has never before come to pass that the youth cant set out on their own (in their society) and start a new household/family and have children.
When that DOES, in fact, happen in a given society, you know with certainty that such a society is doomed.
Savage/barbarian/pagan tribes in Africa don't have this problem! Where in the world, besides our defunct society/culture, has it become impossible for the youth to set out on their own, build or buy their own dwelling, get married, and begin having children -- you know, the future, the next generation?
Only in modern-day America. Which tells you IT CAN'T LAST. Not sustainable. We're doomed. Something's gotta give. Revolution? War? Something.
-
Someone pointed out how insane it was that in the history of civilizations, it has never before come to pass that the youth cant set out on their own (in their society) and start a new household/family and have children.
When that DOES, in fact, happen in a given society, you know with certainty that such a society is doomed.
Savage/barbarian/pagan tribes in Africa don't have this problem! Where in the world, besides our defunct society/culture, has it become impossible for the youth to set out on their own, build or buy their own dwelling, get married, and begin having children -- you know, the future, the next generation?
Only in modern-day America. Which tells you IT CAN'T LAST. Not sustainable. We're doomed. Something's gotta give. Revolution? War? Something.
Something
-
You missed the point ... entirely. If by opting to "delay" starting a family you mean, NFP after marriage, then negatory. If you mean waiting until you've save away something financial, of course you can. But God sometimes brings the right person into your life before then, and circuмstances differ for everyone. Question wasn't whether you COULD wait, but whether you were REQUIRED to wait. So you swung and missed several times in a single response.
As for living extravagantly, of course it's not sinful by itself, but it's contrary to the evangelical counsels and militates against perfection, our true goal in life. If we spend a lot of money on frivolities while our neighbors suffer from great need, will we be judged as those who when Our Lord was hungry, we did not give him to eat? While it's possible for the rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Our Lord said it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
There's a huge range between sewing your own clothes / milking cows and living in a 10-million-dollar mansion while your neighbor is in dire need.
No disrespect, but I think you missed the point. The perspective / virtue of frugality was already mentioned. There was no need for me to repeat. The point I was making is that you can still lead a virtuous life / start a family even if you are wealthy. Income does not necessarily have a correlation to sin…lots of homeless sinners as well as wealthy ones. Poor / frugal people can also be stingy and not help their neighbors. Lastly, from a Catholic perspective, marriage is a requirement to start a family…so that also goes without saying. No one should even consider marriage if they are not able to support a family. The level of support is what is in question. Each person needs to choose that for themselves, knowing the crosses and responsibilities that financial position entails. I read a story of a man being accused of selfish extravagance because he purchased a Mercedes Benz. He replied that his purchase helped to provide jobs for 112 factory workers….just a thought.
-
As a young man, I find the responses in this thread very encouraging. Though I haven't used that silly calculator, I recall being exposed to a certain absurd video back in 8th grade in which similar claims were made about the cost of raising children. One particularly memorable statistic was that, apparently, the cost of a single child was the same as a Ferrari!
Such lies, along with others that I have encountered on the same subject, made me naturally quite cynical about starting a family. The greatest antidote to this insidious propaganda I can recommend to my fellow young men out there is to meet and pay attention to the married Trad men who "are doing it", as Matthew put it.
Their example will inspire you, and (in the case of those like myself, who were not born into the traditional Faith) you will begin see family life in its proper light and dignity.
I found these two posts on Telegram, and though (from my guessing) they were not written by a Catholic, there is truth in what he writes:
This, not only for marriage-seeking young men, but also the minds of young women and the in-laws too are poisoned by the purposeful and coordinated propaganda. It all aims in the same direction to take down the family that God intended all the way back from the pages of Genesis.
-
I guess this is the one benefit of remaining single. I don't have to worry about this. Probably the only benefit though.
-
I guess this is the one benefit of remaining single. I don't have to worry about this. Probably the only benefit though.
Yeah... Some benefit.
-
Yeah... Some benefit.
When you've been single as long as I have, you take all the benefits you can :)
-
When you've been single as long as I have, you take all the benefits you can :)
I guess being unmarried doesn't have to automatically mean being completely alone. Adult men aren't exactly keen on "making friends," though.
-
I guess being unmarried doesn't have to automatically mean being completely alone. Adult men aren't exactly keen on "making friends," though.
It's nearly impossible. The vast majority of men out there are married and usually have kids. This makes it nearly impossible to ever get beyond a "buddy" stage with them. Because you're just a buddy, you're last on their list of priorities to spend any time with. You never get invited to family parties and events because you're just a buddy with the guy and not a friend of the wife as well (how could you be, you've never had the opportunity to even meet her). The vast majority of the time when you invite them to do something, they usually can't because they have family commitments.
I work out of my office 3 days a week and from home the other two days. Other than going to work on those days and going to Mass on Sundays, I'm usually home by myself.