Author Topic: Hosting underage drinking? (Read 7117 times)

Telesphorus · « **on:** May 10, 2011, 02:00:08 AM »

What of priests who offer dispensations during Lent for a party where there is underage drinking? I'm not talking about drinking as part of meal - I mean youths becoming tipsy at the very least. Is it a public scandal?

MrsZ · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2011, 02:10:36 PM »

Are you saying that the priests know that this party is going to host underage drinking and that they gave their tacit approval by offering a dispensation from the Lenten fast?

Underage drinking is illegal ... and since the law itself is not unjust in regard to faith and morals ... this occurence would be wrong for laypeople and worse for a priest to condone.

s2srea · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2011, 02:41:32 PM »

First, you are not clear on a matter of issues:
1. Did the priest give the dispensation for the party alone? i.e. are you saying he gave the dispensation for the underage to drink, or merely attend the party
2. Did the priest realize the party would have underage drinking occurring?
3. If underage drinking is common in the micro culture you're in, is it still scandal (this one is for myself as I do not know)?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:20:39 PM »

I'm speaking of the case in general though there is a case that I have in mind.

As to the case I have in mind, the priest almost certainly knew alcohol would be freely served, and he knew young people would be attending. As to the parents permitting the young people to drink, I doubt he openly approved of that - but shouldn't a priest explicitly forbid such a thing?

I don't know a lot about the case I have in mind, except for publicly posted pictures of obviously tipsy or drunk underage traditional Catholics.

I'm curious if there are any consequences for families that enable the corruption ("under their own roof" as the priests like to say) of traditional Catholic young people.

Sigismund · « **Reply #4 on:** May 11, 2011, 07:40:34 PM »

I am sure there will be consequences, spiritual if not mundane, for anyone who does this.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #5 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:31:44 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

As to the case I have in mind, the priest almost certainly knew alcohol would be freely served, and he knew young people would be attending. As to the parents permitting the young people to drink, I doubt he openly approved of that - but shouldn't a priest explicitly forbid such a thing?

I don't think I'd hold the priest responsible for not explicitly stating that no one should break any laws during a party which he's approved. That should be a given.

As for s2srea's question, if the youth were sufficiently supervised I think it quite possible to not be a cause for scandal. Allowing the young people to photograph the event is possibly a greater concern.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #6 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:43:42 AM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

I don't think I'd hold the priest responsible for not explicitly stating that no one should break any laws during a party which he's approved. That should be a given.

Don't you see the absurdity of a family asking for a dispensation for a party of people getting drunk? I would think priests would teach that drunkenness is a sin and be concerned about such things.

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As for s2srea's question, if the youth were sufficiently supervised I think it quite possible to not be a cause for scandal.

How could they be sufficiently supervised if they're getting intoxicated? Drunkenness is a sin.

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Allowing the young people to photograph the event is possibly a greater concern.

Obviously if it was morally acceptable behavior the photographing of it would be a non-issue.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #7 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:52:49 AM »

Yes, I agree. My assumption would be that the priest approved of a party in which there would be alcohol. For him to specifically say they shouldn't do anything sinful would be unnecessary as he's certainly not giving them permission to go and commit sin. And, for all we know, he did tell them not to do anything sinful.

...

s2srea's question involved creating scandal. They can be sinning left and right and if no one know's about it, there has been no scandal. The photos of the event create the outside knowledge of what transpired and even that might not be sufficient evidence to determine how drunk people were/weren't.

ADD:That was actually your original question too ... was it scandalous.

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:53:03 AM »

Do we know what the blood alcohol level was of the teenagers in question?

Where they "drinking to hilarity" or were they actually drunk?

Just a single drink can make an inexperienced drinker feel "different" -- less inhibited, more "fun", more talkative, easier to laugh, etc. We're talking a single beer or wine cooler, or even part of one!

I'm sure you agree, Telesphorus, that alcohol is not forbidden to Catholics as long as one does not drink to excess.

It's hard to tell that someone was "drunk" just by looking at a picture of them -- unless they look s###-faced.

But a smile on their face? Much more inconclusive.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #9 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:57:00 AM »

Sorry, I have no reason to keep up with laws about alcohol consumption...
Is it underage drinking which is illegal OR public underage drinking?

LordPhan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:08:19 AM »

Scandal is not what the media says it is, scandal is making someone believe that something that is wrong is acceptable or right.

Drinking to the point where one no longer has the capacity of reason is a sin. Same with any taking of drugs etc. It is not the drinking that is sinful, it is making yourself lose the capacity of reason.

I don't know what your laws are, I also don't know what is classified as 'underage' drinking in your country. I also don't know if defying a secular law when it does not matter in the laws of God is a sin.

In my country the highest age requirement for drinking is 19. In some provinces it is 18. It is also not illegal per se for them to be drinking as it is illegal for them to purchase alchohol. I believe it may be illegal to give it to someone who is underage. However it is legal if the person who is giving it to them is their parent and or guardian.

What is the law in your country?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:12:31 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

It's hard to tell that someone was "drunk" just by looking at a picture of them -- unless they look s###-faced.

But a smile on their face? Much more inconclusive.

When a face looks contorted and ugly? When some of the adults are getting drunk to the point of confessing not remembering what happened?

It's pretty disgusting.

To my mind some of these trads want to create the environment of a 1950s high school - and the priests seem to go along with it. American values are trumping Catholic values in this group.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #12 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:20:28 AM »

Quote from: LordPhan

Scandal is not what the media says it is, scandal is making someone believe that something that is wrong is acceptable or right.

Yes. It is not morally acceptable or right for Catholic families to host such parties.

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Drinking to the point where one no longer has the capacity of reason is a sin. Same with any taking of drugs etc. It is not the drinking that is sinful, it is making yourself lose the capacity of reason.

Certainly.

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I don't know what your laws are, I also don't know what is classified as 'underage' drinking in your country. I also don't know if defying a secular law when it does not matter in the laws of God is a sin.

Whether or not one considers the law-breaking is not essential. At any rate there shouldn't be any dispensations given for illegal behavior.

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In my country the highest age requirement for drinking is 19. In some provinces it is 18. It is also not illegal per se for them to be drinking as it is illegal for them to purchase alchohol. I believe it may be illegal to give it to someone who is underage. However it is legal if the person who is giving it to them is their parent and or guardian.

I'm sure the conduct was legally dubious at best.

It seems these people think non-existent laws apply to other people but the laws that do exist do not apply to them.

http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/underage-drinking-and-social-host-liability-in-ohio-97793.php

LordPhan · « **Reply #13 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:27:04 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Matthew
It's hard to tell that someone was "drunk" just by looking at a picture of them -- unless they look s###-faced.

But a smile on their face? Much more inconclusive.

When a face looks contorted and ugly? When some of the adults are getting drunk to the point of confessing not remembering what happened?

It's pretty disgusting.

To my mind some of these trads want to create the environment of a 1950s high school - and the priests seem to go along with it. American values are trumping Catholic values in this group.

If what you say here is true, then yes this should be rectified. Getting drunk to the point of not remebering is losing the capacity of reason and is a sin. It should not be done, let alone done to cause scandal to and or involve the younger generation who would now be led to believe that what is a sin with a mortal stain is licit. Thusly they would also commit indifference to sin, aswell as the fact that since they would believe that it was licit they would not confess hence they probably would not have contrition.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:27:57 AM »

In my (public) high school, it was a common occurance among some of the parents to hold a party for the youth where alcohol was available. The condition was that no one was allowed to leave the residence until the next morning and I never heard tale of anyone becoming excessively drunk. (I was not nearly popular enough to be invited to these!)

I've never seen a problem with this practice as by the time they're legally old enough to drink, young people are usually no longer at home and it seemed wiser to allow them to familiarize themselves with their alcohol tolerance while under parental supervision.

I'm not saying that this was that sort of party, but is there a possibility that the motivations for allowing the underage drinking might have been similar?