Author Topic: Hosting underage drinking? (Read 7122 times)

LordPhan · « **Reply #15 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:30:51 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: LordPhan
Scandal is not what the media says it is, scandal is making someone believe that something that is wrong is acceptable or right.

Yes. It is not morally acceptable or right for Catholic families to host such parties.

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Drinking to the point where one no longer has the capacity of reason is a sin. Same with any taking of drugs etc. It is not the drinking that is sinful, it is making yourself lose the capacity of reason.

Certainly.

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I don't know what your laws are, I also don't know what is classified as 'underage' drinking in your country. I also don't know if defying a secular law when it does not matter in the laws of God is a sin.

Whether or not one considers the law-breaking is not essential. At any rate there shouldn't be any dispensations given for illegal behavior.

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In my country the highest age requirement for drinking is 19. In some provinces it is 18. It is also not illegal per se for them to be drinking as it is illegal for them to purchase alchohol. I believe it may be illegal to give it to someone who is underage. However it is legal if the person who is giving it to them is their parent and or guardian.

I'm sure the conduct was legally dubious at best.

It seems these people think non-existent laws apply to other people but the laws that do exist do not apply to them.

http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/underage-drinking-and-social-host-liability-in-ohio-97793.php

Reading that link, it appears our laws are about the same, except for the age of what constitutes a minor.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #16 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:32:01 AM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

In my (public) high school, it was a common occurance among some of the parents to hold a party for the youth where alcohol was available. The condition was that no one was allowed to leave the residence until the next morning and I never heard tale of anyone becoming excessively drunk. (I was not nearly popular enough to be invited to these!)

You think they weren't becoming excessively drunk? Well, I attended one such party (I didn't drink), the cast party of the high school musical I was in - and I don't doubt that was a mild example (and it was appalling). I recall the future valedictorian begging me not to tell her mother. Such was my reputation

. Allowing drunkenness - especially of one's own children, is morally unacceptable conduct.

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I've never seen a problem with this practice as by the time they're legally old enough to drink, young people are usually no longer at home and it seemed wiser to allow them to familiarize themselves with their alcohol tolerance while under parental supervision.

They can learn how to drink at the dinner table. Anyone who is trying to "familiarize themselves with their tolerance" is already crossing the line of excess.

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I'm not saying that this was that sort of party, but is there a possibility that the motivations for allowing the underage drinking might have been similar?

The motivation, I dare say, is that these people think they're popular and "cool" and have "cool" priests.

LordPhan · « **Reply #17 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:35:49 AM »

I think you should have a talk with this Priest and express your concerns in this matter(assuming you know them or it is your priest), and have him bring it to the attention of these parents that they while having a party and drinking is fine, doing so excessively would not be.

This would be your first step in the matter.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #18 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:47:49 AM »

Adults becoming recognizably drunk in the presence of minors is scandalous whether or not the minors were allowed to drink as well.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:50:05 AM »

Quote from: LordPhan

I think you should have a talk with this Priest and express your concerns in this matter(assuming you know them or it is your priest), and have him bring it to the attention of these parents that they while having a party and drinking is fine, doing so excessively would not be.

This would be your first step in the matter.

I'm going to guess that the priest(s) in question would be the same ones who've asked Tele not to return to their parish. Due to that, this is probably more of a theoretical conversation.

MrsZ · « **Reply #20 on:** May 12, 2011, 05:33:38 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

In my (public) high school, it was a common occurance among some of the parents to hold a party for the youth where alcohol was available. The condition was that no one was allowed to leave the residence until the next morning and I never heard tale of anyone becoming excessively drunk. (I was not nearly popular enough to be invited to these!)

I've never seen a problem with this practice as by the time they're legally old enough to drink, young people are usually no longer at home and it seemed wiser to allow them to familiarize themselves with their alcohol tolerance while under parental supervision.

I'm not saying that this was that sort of party, but is there a possibility that the motivations for allowing the underage drinking might have been similar?

This doesn't seem right to me. So this is a co-ed party with alcohol where everyone had to stay there overnight, thus suggesting sleeping there together while under the influence of alcohol? :shocked:

If we had a culture where people sat down every night to a home made meal and modeled drinking a glass of wine or beer with their dinner, that would be one thing, and I would suppose that an 18 year old could probably have a glass or beer or wine with the meal and be fine. But a very controlled, "non party" atmosphere.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #21 on:** May 12, 2011, 07:35:03 PM »

Quote from: MrsZ

This doesn't seem right to me. So this is a co-ed party with alcohol where everyone had to stay there overnight, thus suggesting sleeping there together while under the influence of alcohol? :shocked:

You're painting an unnecessarily bad picture there. These were supervised parties. And, knowing several of the parents (some of them were teachers, etc), I'd guess they weren't dumb enough to let the guys and gals sleep in the same rooms.

I suppose the local culture does play a role in understanding how something like this would likely play out.

Some of you have older teenagers and I think it an interesting question ... how do you let them have fun and move into the realm of adult socializing (which usually involves the presence of alcohol) while assuring they aren't doing anything they shouldn't be? Sorry, but I don't think sipping a glass of wine around the dinner table with your family is going to fill this desire for many teens.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2011, 07:53:53 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: MrsZ
This doesn't seem right to me. So this is a co-ed party with alcohol where everyone had to stay there overnight, thus suggesting sleeping there together while under the influence of alcohol? :shocked:

You're painting an unnecessarily bad picture there. These were supervised parties. And, knowing several of the parents (some of them were teachers, etc), I'd guess they weren't dumb enough to let the guys and gals sleep in the same rooms.

Coeds drinking at a party together and sleeping over? And you believe this was not a proximate occasion of sin because of watchful parents? When watchful responsible parents would never allow such a situation to arise?

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I suppose the local culture does play a role in understanding how something like this would likely play out.

"Local" American culture?

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Some of you have older teenagers and I think it an interesting question ... how do you let them have fun and move into the realm of adult socializing (which usually involves the presence of alcohol) while assuring they aren't doing anything they shouldn't be?

I find it incredible that you think teenagers are gaining valuable socializing "experience" in such a situation. Really unbelievable.

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Sorry, but I don't think sipping a glass of wine around the dinner table with your family is going to fill this desire for many teens.

So the parents should make sure the teenagers desires are being fulfilled?

Before you said it was about testing alcohol tolerance? Now it's about teenage desires to have house parties?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2011, 08:09:31 PM »

This is an open and shut case from a Catholic perspective. A priest who would turn a blind eye to such a thing is a miserable priest - but gross double standards are the norm in Traditional communities.

Let's get real here - any priest who really had the Faith and believed in the Catholic theology of sin and salvation would never (in his right mind) approve of such a thing.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #24 on:** May 12, 2011, 09:10:14 PM »

Seriously, I don't get this. Are you saying a gathering of people consuming alcohol is inherently sinful? Or is it only sinful because they're minors, because it's co-ed, or what?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #25 on:** May 12, 2011, 09:15:42 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Seriously, I don't get this. Are you saying a gathering of people consuming alcohol is inherently sinful?

You don't get it? Did I say a group of people consuming alcohol is sinful?

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Or is it only sinful because they're minors, because it's co-ed, or what?

No sensible person could possibly argue that a mixed group of underage people being given free access to alcohol and getting intoxicated and spending the night is morally acceptable for Catholics. This isn't like some formal dance where people drink in moderation (though most proms are occasions of moral outrage today).

We're talking about teens drinking to excess to loud raucous music - and then staying overnight.

I can't possibly understand how you think that is morally acceptable. It is shocking to me that you of all people are defending it.

LordPhan · « **Reply #26 on:** May 12, 2011, 09:25:28 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: MaterDominici
Seriously, I don't get this. Are you saying a gathering of people consuming alcohol is inherently sinful?

You don't get it? Did I say a group of people consuming alcohol is sinful?

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Or is it only sinful because they're minors, because it's co-ed, or what?

No sensible person could possibly argue that a mixed group of underage people being given free access to alcohol and getting intoxicated and spending the night is morally acceptable for Catholics. This isn't like some formal dance where people drink in moderation (though most proms are occasions of moral outrage today).

We're talking about teens drinking to excess to loud raucous music - and then staying overnight.

I can't possibly understand how you think that is morally acceptable. It is shocking to me that you of all people are defending it.

Where did she say in her example that they were drinking to excess and listening to loud raucous music? In her example they were well supervised.

You've now warped your example into hers in order to make an argument and attack her.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #27 on:** May 12, 2011, 09:25:36 PM »

I ask you, what sort of fool would allow his daughter to attend something like that?

It really makes me think of these verses:

And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion?

It really makes me wonder sometimes - how is it that the Muslims can preserve ideas about decency but Traditional Catholics cannot?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2011, 09:27:04 PM »

Quote from: LordPhan

Where did she say in her example that they were drinking to excess and listening to loud raucous music? In her example they were well supervised.

"Well-supervised" parents don't let their children drink freely.

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You've now warped your example into hers in order to make an argument and attack her.

She's defending teenage drinking house-parties on the grounds that "no one is allowed to drive away" and they are supposed to be "well-supervised"

From a Catholic point of view that is insanity.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2011, 09:30:07 PM »

Quote from: LordPhan

Where did she say in her example that they were drinking to excess and listening to loud raucous music? In her example they were well supervised.

She's not defending an abstraction of people in groups drinking alcohol. She's defending a well-known part of American culture, a notoriously corrupt part of it, and she's trying to baptize it.

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You've now warped your example into hers in order to make an argument and attack her.

No, she's defending the indefensible. A couple of parents cannot supervise a household of intoxicated teenagers through the night. If they were supervising they wouldn't allow teenagers to become intoxicated. Giving a mixed group of teenagers alcohol is throwing lighter fluid on something that is already an occasion of sin. The idea that anyone thinks it isn't a proximate occasion of sin and not a public scandal for trad Catholics to allow this sort of thing really blows my mind.