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Author Topic: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?  (Read 732 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2020, 07:34:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 30, 2020, 02:52:54 PM
    Spiritus Sanctus in Latin.

    The Douay-Rheims uses both, so I really don't see the issue with it. The only problem IMO is the priest trying to force its usage.
    Kindly show us an example of Holy Spirit being used to denote the Holy Ghost in the Douay-Rheims. There is not one that I am aware of.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #16 on: July 31, 2020, 07:54:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 31, 2020, 07:15:20 AM
    I actually have a personal preference for Spirit ...
    Maybe because it is closer to your native Hungarian, like it would be for Italians and Spanish speakers, but not to Americans, English, and Germans.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #17 on: July 31, 2020, 08:06:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 31, 2020, 07:34:54 AM
    Kindly show us an example of Holy Spirit being used to denote the Holy Ghost in the Douay-Rheims. There is not one that I am aware of.

    Google: site:drbo.org "Holy Spirit"

    Quote from: Wisdom 9
    [17] And who shall know thy thought, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above

    Quote from: Eph 5
    [18] And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury; but be ye filled with the holy Spirit

    Quote from: 1 Thess 4
    [8] Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Spirit in us.

    ...
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #18 on: July 31, 2020, 08:22:54 AM »
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #19 on: July 31, 2020, 07:19:17 PM »
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    • Dear Struthio,

    Those are all not examples of the Holy Ghost being called the Holy Spirit, they are speaking of what was described in the OP:

    Quote
    In the Middle Ages, the title “Holy Spirit” was used to describe or pertain to God's Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord, whereas “Holy Ghost” was used to describe the third person in the Holy Trinity.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #20 on: July 31, 2020, 07:56:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 31, 2020, 07:19:17 PM
    Those are all not examples of the Holy Ghost being called the Holy Spirit, they are speaking of what was described in the OP:

    Quote
    In the Middle Ages, the title “Holy Spirit” was used to describe or pertain to God's Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord, whereas “Holy Ghost” was used to describe the third person in the Holy Trinity.

    The quote is odd. Anyhow, not even the Catholic Church of England described any "God's Spirit" or "Spirit of the Lord" other than the 3rd person of the triune God as “Holy Spirit”. Whether in the Middle Ages or before or later. To say otherwise is to accuse the Catholic Church of England of the Middle Ages of heresy.

    The language of the Church is Latin. Douay/Rheims translations are translations of the original Latin of St. Jerome's Vulgata. The Vulgata has "Spiritus Sanctus", "Spiritum Sanctum", or "Spiritu Sancto" in all three verses I quoted.



    Our Lord on the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity:

    Quote from: John 14, drbo.org
    [17] The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

    Quote from: John 15, drbo.org
    [26] But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

    Quote from: John 16, drbo.org
    [13] But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #21 on: July 31, 2020, 08:03:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 31, 2020, 07:54:23 AM
    Maybe because it is closer to your native Hungarian, like it would be for Italians and Spanish speakers, but not to Americans, English, and Germans.

    No, the Hungarian word is completely different from either Spirit or Ghost.  Hungarian is a very unique language.

    It's because of my affinity for Latin.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #22 on: August 01, 2020, 04:26:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on July 31, 2020, 07:56:18 PM


    The quote is odd. Anyhow, not even the Catholic Church of England described any "God's Spirit" or "Spirit of the Lord" other than the 3rd person of the triune God as “Holy Spirit”. Whether in the Middle Ages or before or later. To say otherwise is to accuse the Catholic Church of England of the Middle Ages of heresy.

    The language of the Church is Latin. Douay/Rheims translations are translations of the original Latin of St. Jerome's Vulgata. The Vulgata has "Spiritus Sanctus", "Spiritum Sanctum", or "Spiritu Sancto" in all three verses I quoted.



    Our Lord on the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity:
    The quote is clear to me. I do not see why you call it odd. Again, you quote phrases which only have the term spirit in common with Holy Spirit, there continues to be no proof from you that the Holy Ghost was called the Holy Spirit in the Douay Rheims, which is where my comment began.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #23 on: August 01, 2020, 08:56:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 31, 2020, 07:19:17 PM
    Those are all not examples of the Holy Ghost being called the Holy Spirit, they are speaking of what was described in the OP:

    Not true. The alleged medieval distinction between 3rd person of the Trinity and the Spirit of the Lord etc. doesn't exist. At least not in the Catholic Church. The source of the quote seems to be this page. Looks like a protestant using his ability to freely interpret the object of his studies.


    Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 01, 2020, 04:26:07 AM
    The quote is clear to me. I do not see why you call it odd.

    Here an example, that the Spirit of the Lord is the 3rd person of the Trinity. The Spirit of the Lord, which is upon the prophet Isaias, is the 3rd person of the Trinity:


    Quote from: Luke 4
    [17] And the book of Isaias the prophet was delivered unto him. And as he unfolded the book, he found the place where it was written: [18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. [...]

    Quote
    "These books are held by the Church as sacred and canonical, not as having been composed by merely human labour and afterwards approved by her authority, nor merely because they contain revelation without error, but because, written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author, and have been transmitted to the Church as such." (Concil. Vatic., Sess. III, const. dogm, de Fide, cap. ii, in Denz., 1787).
    Catholic Encyclopedia




    Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 01, 2020, 04:26:07 AM
    Again, you quote phrases which only have the term spirit in common with Holy Spirit

    Well, they call the Holy Ghost "Spirit of truth". I believe that "the spirit of truth who shall abide with you" of John 14:17, "the Paraclete" of John 15:26, the "Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father" of John 15:26, and "the Spirit of truth who shall shew you the things that are to come" of John 16:13 are no one else but the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or 3rd person of the Holy Trinity.


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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #24 on: August 01, 2020, 09:34:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 01, 2020, 08:56:38 AM
    Well, they call the Holy Ghost "Spirit of truth". I believe that "the spirit of truth who shall abide with you" of John 14:17, "the Paraclete" of John 15:26, the "Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father" of John 15:26, and "the Spirit of truth who shall shew you the things that are to come" of John 16:13 are no one else but the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or 3rd person of the Holy Trinity.
    1) This thread is entitled  "Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?"
    2) Someone else said both titles are used in the Douay-Rheims
    3) I said they are not, that the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost.  THAT is what you are debating against.

    You come into the picture and keep quoting expressions which are not Holy Spirit, like "Spirit of truth" and  "the Paraclete". Those names are not even spelled the same as Holy Spirit.

    Do you understand now?  I repeat the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #25 on: August 01, 2020, 09:42:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 01, 2020, 09:34:13 AM
    1) This thread is entitled  "Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?"
    2) Someone else said both titles are used in the Douay-Rheims
    3) I said they are not, that the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost.  THAT is what you are debating against.

    You come into the picture and keep quoting expressions which are not Holy Spirit, like "Spirit of truth" and  "the Paraclete". Those names are not even spelled the same as Holy Spirit.

    Do you understand now?  I repeat the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost.
    :facepalm:


    Let me end this stupid debate.

    Douay Rheims:
    Quote from: 1 Thess 4 on August 01, 2020, 09:34:13 AM
    [8] Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Spirit in us.

    Latin Vulgate:
    Quote from: 1 Thess 4 on August 01, 2020, 09:34:13 AM
    [8] itaque qui spernit non hominem spernit sed Deum qui etiam dedit Spiritum suum Sanctum in vobis.

    Spiritus Sanctus, right there.

    Are you going to trust the Latin Vulgate or some random Quora user citing a Protestant heresy?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #26 on: August 01, 2020, 09:28:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on August 01, 2020, 09:42:19 AM
    :facepalm:


    Let me end this stupid debate.

    Douay Rheims:
    Latin Vulgate:
    Spiritus Sanctus, right there.

    Are you going to trust the Latin Vulgate or some random Quora user citing a Protestant heresy?
    The Douay you quoted is talking about God's spirit, his holy grace, That is why holy is not capitalized, it is not talking about the third person of the Holy Trinity. Is that all you can find?

    Then you quote the Latin which does not say Spiritus Sanctus (Holy Spirit).

    This is not some mystery, all one has to do is go to an online PDF of the Douay-Rheims and search for Holy Spirit and they will not find it once mentioned except uncapitalized, because they are talking about the grace of God or the grace of the Holy Ghost, His spirit.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #27 on: August 02, 2020, 07:25:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 01, 2020, 09:28:02 PM
    The Douay you quoted is talking about God's spirit, his holy grace, That is why holy is not capitalized, it is not talking about the third person of the Holy Trinity. Is that all you can find?

    Then you quote the Latin which does not say Spiritus Sanctus (Holy Spirit).

    This is not some mystery, all one has to do is go to an online PDF of the Douay-Rheims and search for Holy Spirit and they will not find it once mentioned except uncapitalized, because they are talking about the grace of God or the grace of the Holy Ghost, His spirit.
    No, it's quite clearly referring to God giving them the Holy Ghost when they were confirmed. Making arguments on capitalisation is fairly silly, especially seeing as both "holy" and spirit" are capitalised in the original Latin.

    And the Latin literally does say Sanctus Spiritus. Thing is, in Latin you can reverse adjective order(red dog, dog red) and 's' at the end of each word changed to an 'm' because of the grammatical case.

    Of course, you're also wrong about there being no capitalised mentions of the Holy Spirit in the Douay Rheims regardless.

    Douay Rheims [1]
    Quote from: Wisdom 1:5
    For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.


    Latin Vulgate [1], [2]
    Quote from: Wisdom 1:5
    sanctus enim spiritus disciplinae effugiet fictum et auferet se a cogitationibus quae sunt sine intellectu et corripietur superveniente iniquitate
    The capitalisation even reverses, so whichever language you choose, I can give you it capitalised.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #28 on: August 02, 2020, 07:48:59 AM »
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    • The best example is a comparison of the following:

    [Ephesians 5:18]
    And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury; but be ye filled with the holy Spirit,
    Et nolite inebriari vino, in quo est luxuria, sed implemini Spiritu Sancto,

    [Luke 1:15]
    For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
    erit enim magnus coram Domino : et vinum et siceram non bibet, et Spiritu Sancto replebitur adhuc ex utero matris suae.

    The exact same Latin phrase, same form and all, and even the same context("filled with the Holy Ghost/Spirit") was translated as both Holy Ghost and "holy Spirit". So clearly "holy Spirit" refers to the "Holy Ghost", and not some entirely unrelated thing just because of its (inconsistently) uncapitalised 'h'.
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