Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: cassini on July 30, 2020, 02:40:57 PM
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Some time back, my wife was attending Monday devotions in which the rosary is said. Throughout the rosary she referred to the Holy Ghost while the priest and others referred to the Holy Spirit.
Anyway, after the devotions were over the priest came over to my wife and asked her not to be using the term Holy Ghost out loud and to follow the example of the priest at the altar and the reply from the congregation.
My wife replied she was reared referring the Holy Ghost and would remain calling Him the Holy Ghost. The priest said he was a man of the 60s (a Vatican II victim) and it was the Holy Spirit for him.
Needless to say this incident was debated among a few friends. The outcome was that this is perhaps one of the more subtle moves towards the one world religion that is ahead of us. You see the Holy Ghost is one distinct person of the Holy Trinity, whereas the Holy Spirit can mean anything. Did you know the Holy Spirit is referred to four times in the Quran, a religion that do not believe in the Trinity God of Catholics. Their Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabrial who we know is not God.
In the Middle Ages, the title “Holy Spirit” was used to describe or pertain to God's Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord, whereas “Holy Ghost” was used to describe the third person in the Holy Trinity.
For me I will not use the term Holy Spirit as I consider it the modernising of the Holy Ghost in order to be able to unite the Trinity with the god of pagans. I, and needless to say my wife, will stick to our pre-Vatican II Holy Ghost and they can have their Holy Spirit.
Just thought I would mention this for discussion.
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Spiritus Sanctus in Latin.
The Douay-Rheims uses both, so I really don't see the issue with it. The only problem IMO is the priest trying to force its usage.
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Holy Ghost. Holy Spirit came more to be said at Vatican II. It is explained well on www.traditio.com Go to library.
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This gets brought up all the time.
Heiliger Geist is Holy Ghost in German.
Sanctus Spiritus is the same thing in Latin.
There is no dogmatic reason to use either. NEVERTHELESS, saying "Holy Ghost" is a shibboleth to declare to the world you are Traditional, that you hate Vatican II, etc. -- so we should all use it for that reason alone. Why cause anyone to think you're a Novus Ordo Catholic?
Even though the term "Holy Spirit" in innocuous, the men behind it were NOT so innocent. They released this new term for the Third Person of the Holy Trinity at the same time they released "the Spirit of Vatican II" on the world. There are many spirits (some good, some evil) but only one Holy Ghost.
Guess which one Holy Ghost came from? The German. There are a LOT of German descendants in America. There is even a legend that at one point, a single vote prevent the official language of the United States from being German! Even if that is an urban legend, it does show how prevalent German descendants are in America.
Holy Spirit is a -- I don't want to use negative terms when talking about the Third Person of the Holy Trinity -- let's say an INAPPROPRIATE mix of the German and Latin. Holy from German, and Spirit from Latin.
Much like using Latin endings to a German word makes it sound ridiculous:
"I was embiggened by his resolve."
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I use "Holy Ghost" in prayer and "Holy Spirit" in theological discourse, teaching, and so on.
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And Protestants use the term “spirit” so Holy Ghost is another pro-Catholic reason.
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Storm in a teacup!
There are numerous threads on this. No need to reinvent the wheel.
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The spelling is: Heiliger Geist.
Thanks for the correction. I corrected my post.
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Guess which one Holy Ghost came from? The German.
Strictly speaking, not really. The phrase has been native English since the Anglo-Saxons drove the Brythonic Celts into Wales, Cornwall, Scotland, and the sea. The phrase used by Bede, if I recall aright, is "Hālga Gāst" or "Hālig Gāst."
Anglo-Saxon—Old English, as it is also called—is a member of the Germanic language family, but at the time it was being spoken, the ancestral equivalent of modern German was, earlier, Old Frisian or Old Saxon and, later, Old High German. In short, the earliest form of a language called English slightly antedates the earliest form of a language called German.
Thus, "Holy Ghost" is not an import. It has been a term native to English from the beginnings of the language. In Chaucer's dialect, now called Middle English, the form was usually "hooly goost," but probably half a dozen other forms also appear in print.
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Strictly speaking, not really. The phrase has been native English since the Anglo-Saxons drove the Brythonic Celts into Wales, Cornwall, Scotland, and the sea. The phrase used by Bede, if I recall aright, is "Hālga Gāst" or "Hālig Gāst."
Anglo-Saxon—Old English, as it is also called—is a member of the Germanic language family, but at the time it was being spoken, the ancestral equivalent of modern German was, earlier, Old Frisian or Old Saxon and, later, Old High German. In short, the earliest form of a language called English slightly antedates the earliest form of a language called German.
Thus, "Holy Ghost" is not an import. It has been a term native to English from the beginnings of the language. In Chaucer's dialect, now called Middle English, the form was usually "hooly goost," but probably half a dozen other forms also appear in print.
In Novus Ordo Vatican II Churches, you never hear the term Holy Ghost. Trust me I've experienced it.
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"Holy Spirit" became the standard thanks to V2. It is one of those things that changed for the sake of change. Same as "You" and "Your" replaced "Thee" and "Thine," same as the last book of the Bible is now more often referred to as "the book of Revelation" which replaced the "Apocalypse" etc., and so on.
All changed for the sake of change, all part of the revolution, designed to add to the confusion of the times while helping to promote the idea that, "only the externals changed, all things essential to the Mass and faith remained".
Do these things above really have a different meaning? No, they all say the same thing, only in terms and a language approved and promoted through the new "church of the New Advent."
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There is only one Holy Ghost.
There are many holy spirits.
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I actually have a personal preference for Spirit ...
1) because it's more Latinate, and I'm more inclined to the Latin
2) Ghost has picked up some unwanted connotations in recent decades, as in Casper the Friendly ...
but either one is OK and valid.
I knew of one person who doubted his kids' Baptism because the priest used Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost. That's nonsense.
To Matthew's point, however, if I do use Holy Spirit among Traditional Catholics, I immediately become suspect of Modernism, so I tend to use Holy Ghost among Traditional Catholics. Most of the time when I pray the Rosary on my own, however, I just say it in Latin, so it's a non-issue for me.
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There is only one Holy Ghost.
There are many holy spirits.
There is only one Holy Spirit, but many holy ghosts.
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Thanks for the correction. I corrected my post.
Lucky you Matthew, we're stuck with our mistakes.
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Spiritus Sanctus in Latin.
The Douay-Rheims uses both, so I really don't see the issue with it. The only problem IMO is the priest trying to force its usage.
Kindly show us an example of Holy Spirit being used to denote the Holy Ghost in the Douay-Rheims. There is not one that I am aware of.
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I actually have a personal preference for Spirit ...
Maybe because it is closer to your native Hungarian, like it would be for Italians and Spanish speakers, but not to Americans, English, and Germans.
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Kindly show us an example of Holy Spirit being used to denote the Holy Ghost in the Douay-Rheims. There is not one that I am aware of.
Google: site:drbo.org "Holy Spirit" (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=site%3Adrbo.org+%22Holy+Spirit%22)
[17] And who shall know thy thought, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above
[18] And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury; but be ye filled with the holy Spirit
[8] Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Spirit in us.
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Rheims New Testament 1582: Holy Bible Faithfvlly Translated Into English (https://books.google.com.br/books?id=kofWAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Rheimes+New+Testament&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDoonCyPfqAhVaLbkGHaIuCbwQ6AEwAnoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Attachment: 1 Thess 4,8
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Dear Struthio,
Those are all not examples of the Holy Ghost being called the Holy Spirit, they are speaking of what was described in the OP:
In the Middle Ages, the title “Holy Spirit” was used to describe or pertain to God's Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord, whereas “Holy Ghost” was used to describe the third person in the Holy Trinity.
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Those are all not examples of the Holy Ghost being called the Holy Spirit, they are speaking of what was described in the OP:
In the Middle Ages, the title “Holy Spirit” was used to describe or pertain to God's Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord, whereas “Holy Ghost” was used to describe the third person in the Holy Trinity.
The quote is odd. Anyhow, not even the Catholic Church of England described any "God's Spirit" or "Spirit of the Lord" other than the 3rd person of the triune God as “Holy Spirit”. Whether in the Middle Ages or before or later. To say otherwise is to accuse the Catholic Church of England of the Middle Ages of heresy.
The language of the Church is Latin. Douay/Rheims translations are translations of the original Latin of St. Jerome's Vulgata. The Vulgata has "Spiritus Sanctus", "Spiritum Sanctum", or "Spiritu Sancto" in all three verses I quoted.
Our Lord on the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity:
[17] The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.
[26] But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
[13] But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
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Maybe because it is closer to your native Hungarian, like it would be for Italians and Spanish speakers, but not to Americans, English, and Germans.
No, the Hungarian word is completely different from either Spirit or Ghost. Hungarian is a very unique language.
It's because of my affinity for Latin.
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The quote is odd. Anyhow, not even the Catholic Church of England described any "God's Spirit" or "Spirit of the Lord" other than the 3rd person of the triune God as “Holy Spirit”. Whether in the Middle Ages or before or later. To say otherwise is to accuse the Catholic Church of England of the Middle Ages of heresy.
The language of the Church is Latin. Douay/Rheims translations are translations of the original Latin of St. Jerome's Vulgata. The Vulgata has "Spiritus Sanctus", "Spiritum Sanctum", or "Spiritu Sancto" in all three verses I quoted.
Our Lord on the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity:
The quote is clear to me. I do not see why you call it odd. Again, you quote phrases which only have the term spirit in common with Holy Spirit, there continues to be no proof from you that the Holy Ghost was called the Holy Spirit in the Douay Rheims, which is where my comment began.
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Those are all not examples of the Holy Ghost being called the Holy Spirit, they are speaking of what was described in the OP:
Not true. The alleged medieval distinction between 3rd person of the Trinity and the Spirit of the Lord etc. doesn't exist. At least not in the Catholic Church. The source of the quote seems to be this page (http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/religion-miscellaneous/difference-between-holy-ghost-and-holy-spirit/). Looks like a protestant using his ability to freely interpret the object of his studies.
The quote is clear to me. I do not see why you call it odd.
Here an example, that the Spirit of the Lord is the 3rd person of the Trinity. The Spirit of the Lord, which is upon the prophet Isaias, is the 3rd person of the Trinity:
[17] And the book of Isaias the prophet was delivered unto him. And as he unfolded the book, he found the place where it was written: [18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. [...]
"These books are held by the Church as sacred and canonical, not as having been composed by merely human labour and afterwards approved by her authority, nor merely because they contain revelation without error, but because, written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author, and have been transmitted to the Church as such." (Concil. Vatic., Sess. III, const. dogm, de Fide, cap. ii, in Denz., 1787).
Catholic Encyclopedia (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08045a.htm)
Again, you quote phrases which only have the term spirit in common with Holy Spirit
Well, they call the Holy Ghost "Spirit of truth". I believe that "the spirit of truth who shall abide with you" of John 14:17, "the Paraclete" of John 15:26, the "Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father" of John 15:26, and "the Spirit of truth who shall shew you the things that are to come" of John 16:13 are no one else but the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or 3rd person of the Holy Trinity.
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Well, they call the Holy Ghost "Spirit of truth". I believe that "the spirit of truth who shall abide with you" of John 14:17, "the Paraclete" of John 15:26, the "Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father" of John 15:26, and "the Spirit of truth who shall shew you the things that are to come" of John 16:13 are no one else but the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or 3rd person of the Holy Trinity.
1) This thread is entitled "Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?"
2) Someone else said both titles are used in the Douay-Rheims
3) I said they are not, that the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost. THAT is what you are debating against.
You come into the picture and keep quoting expressions which are not Holy Spirit, like "Spirit of truth" and "the Paraclete". Those names are not even spelled the same as Holy Spirit.
Do you understand now? I repeat the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost.
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1) This thread is entitled "Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?"
2) Someone else said both titles are used in the Douay-Rheims
3) I said they are not, that the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost. THAT is what you are debating against.
You come into the picture and keep quoting expressions which are not Holy Spirit, like "Spirit of truth" and "the Paraclete". Those names are not even spelled the same as Holy Spirit.
Do you understand now? I repeat the Douay-Rheims nowhere uses Holy Spirit to denote the Holy Ghost.
:facepalm:
Let me end this stupid debate.
Douay Rheims:
[8] Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Spirit in us.
Latin Vulgate:
[8] itaque qui spernit non hominem spernit sed Deum qui etiam dedit Spiritum suum Sanctum in vobis.
Spiritus Sanctus, right there.
Are you going to trust the Latin Vulgate or some random Quora user citing a Protestant heresy?
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:facepalm:
Let me end this stupid debate.
Douay Rheims:
Latin Vulgate:
Spiritus Sanctus, right there.
Are you going to trust the Latin Vulgate or some random Quora user citing a Protestant heresy?
The Douay you quoted is talking about God's spirit, his holy grace, That is why holy is not capitalized, it is not talking about the third person of the Holy Trinity. Is that all you can find?
Then you quote the Latin which does not say Spiritus Sanctus (Holy Spirit).
This is not some mystery, all one has to do is go to an online PDF of the Douay-Rheims and search for Holy Spirit and they will not find it once mentioned except uncapitalized, because they are talking about the grace of God or the grace of the Holy Ghost, His spirit.
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The Douay you quoted is talking about God's spirit, his holy grace, That is why holy is not capitalized, it is not talking about the third person of the Holy Trinity. Is that all you can find?
Then you quote the Latin which does not say Spiritus Sanctus (Holy Spirit).
This is not some mystery, all one has to do is go to an online PDF of the Douay-Rheims and search for Holy Spirit and they will not find it once mentioned except uncapitalized, because they are talking about the grace of God or the grace of the Holy Ghost, His spirit.
No, it's quite clearly referring to God giving them the Holy Ghost when they were confirmed. Making arguments on capitalisation is fairly silly, especially seeing as both "holy" and spirit" are capitalised in the original Latin.
And the Latin literally does say Sanctus Spiritus. Thing is, in Latin you can reverse adjective order(red dog, dog red) and 's' at the end of each word changed to an 'm' because of the grammatical case.
Of course, you're also wrong about there being no capitalised mentions of the Holy Spirit in the Douay Rheims regardless.
Douay Rheims [1] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=25&ch=1&l=5#x)
For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.
Latin Vulgate [1] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=lvb&bk=25&ch=1&l=5#x), [2] (http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=0&b=25)
sanctus enim spiritus disciplinae effugiet fictum et auferet se a cogitationibus quae sunt sine intellectu et corripietur superveniente iniquitate
The capitalisation even reverses, so whichever language you choose, I can give you it capitalised.
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The best example is a comparison of the following:
[Ephesians 5:18]
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury; but be ye filled with the holy Spirit,
Et nolite inebriari vino, in quo est luxuria, sed implemini Spiritu Sancto,
[Luke 1:15]
For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
erit enim magnus coram Domino : et vinum et siceram non bibet, et Spiritu Sancto replebitur adhuc ex utero matris suae.
The exact same Latin phrase, same form and all, and even the same context("filled with the Holy Ghost/Spirit") was translated as both Holy Ghost and "holy Spirit". So clearly "holy Spirit" refers to the "Holy Ghost", and not some entirely unrelated thing just because of its (inconsistently) uncapitalised 'h'.