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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Waskiewicz on October 06, 2011, 08:49:56 PM

Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Waskiewicz on October 06, 2011, 08:49:56 PM
Have Relationships Become Disposable?

Obviously the answer is yes, they're the same as all other goods in society today. For an ethics paper, I'm on the hunt for opinions of Catholics as to why it is necessary that marriage be a lifelong commitment. What do you find are the main social benefits? Spiritual benefits? Do the benefits matter or is it based solely on something more?

In addition to your own opinions which I'd love to hear, I also was curious if any of the married-folk (or others) might know any good writings of the saints or other sound Catholic authors I could peruse.

Thank you in advance. I look forward to reading what you have to say!
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Telesphorus on October 06, 2011, 09:22:20 PM
Pairing for life for the benefit of children is completely natural for human beings.

I believe that people who are not corrupted by immorality will naturally want to be with one person for life.  Of course, a problem comes when someone marries someone without truly being captivated by them.  Then self-sacrifice is required.  For most women it's difficult to find someone to marry that they can be content with.  In today's society that has become more true than ever.  It is especially true when no serious value is placed on chastity by the vast majority of society, men and women.  Forming a durable bond and commitment is much more difficult because of the lack of innocence.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: MaterDominici on October 06, 2011, 09:25:49 PM
This book had some good info to say about the permanence of marriage. This is the only quote I saved off, but the entire book is on Project Gutenberg.

Quote
Marriage and parenthood, the Catholic ideal (Thomas John, 1871-1916 Gerrard)
- Highlight Loc. 310-14  | Added on Sunday, September 25, 2011, 02:17 PM

Further, the Church, although she insists that the marriage bond lasts only till death, although she allows remarriage after the death of one of the partners, yet she looks upon such remarriage as something less perfect. Her ideal is that a marriage should be so distinctly one and perpetual as to exclude any other marriage even after the first has been dissolved by death. A marriage is not merely a union of two In one flesh, but also of two In one spirit. The more perfect thing, therefore, would be to consider the bond of love lasting right through death.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Telesphorus on October 06, 2011, 09:34:41 PM
Can you older saints and authorities for that Mater Dominici?

What about what Our Lord said about heaven?

Quote
For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: ManofGosh on October 06, 2011, 10:08:15 PM
Quote from: Waskiewicz
Have Relationships Become Disposable?

Obviously the answer is yes, they're the same as all other goods in society today. For an ethics paper, I'm on the hunt for opinions of Catholics as to why it is necessary that marriage be a lifelong commitment. What do you find are the main social benefits? Spiritual benefits? Do the benefits matter or is it based solely on something more?

In addition to your own opinions which I'd love to hear, I also was curious if any of the married-folk (or others) might know any good writings of the saints or other sound Catholic authors I could peruse.

Thank you in advance. I look forward to reading what you have to say!


 I try to look at it from the will of God and not from the modern worlds' "civil unions". If you want the world to be good then fill it with good people. That is the will of God, his master plan for us, to make as many people as he can Saints. I find this my mission in life(vocation) to leave a legacy of the Glory of God through my family. Hopefully in the process God will make a Saint of me.

 I don't look for any social benefit, but yes there are some. The men/woman at the chapel I go to are like brother/sisters to me. Anything I need that they can do for me, they will. Likewise I am there for them. An example of this is like when one of the mothers get sick, a woman in the parish will cook dinner for them to ease the stress. When I had to add on to my house, I had a full crew to help me get it done. I find these type of Sacrifices we do for each other increase our love for each other.

 I do look for the spiritual benefits. I need them to complete my vocation and hopefully become a Saint. The increase in Graces effects everything from virtue to the power of your prayers. When we pray as a family we have the same intention, which means in my family (10 of us total currently), it's like saying 150 mysteries by saying just one complete rosary. This is very powerful as you can imagine. To run my family as a Catholic man I need virtue. From receiving the Sacraments, praying and holding fast to my vocation with God, I am able to grow the Virtue and I need.

There is many more examples I could lay out but these were some of the most important to me personally.



P.S. I will have to get back to you on the books, I need to look through my library for the complete info.

 
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: ManofGosh on October 06, 2011, 10:49:24 PM
Sorry, but second paragraph first sentence, I meant they're not there are. Sorry it is late, so didn't catch that mistake.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Waskiewicz on October 07, 2011, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
Pairing for life for the benefit of children is completely natural for human beings.


What about pairing for life without any consideration or desire for children? Do you think that when people or a society has removed the rendering of children as the purpose of marriage, the sacrificial nature becomes increasingly harder to bear? Is it to such an extent that a desire for children becomes almost necessary for commitment or it's sill natural to pair for life without it? (Obviously celibate marriages to preserve holy virginity are excluded here.)

Quote from: Telesphorus
It is especially true when no serious value is placed on chastity by the vast majority of society, men and women.  Forming a durable bond and commitment is much more difficult because of the lack of innocence.


Interesting! I hadn't really considered the vital role chastity would play in maintaining the marriage, though the more I think about it the more I can see its relationship to the formation of an inseparable bond. Thank you!
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Telesphorus on October 07, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
There is a direct relationship between the breakdown of marriage as an institution and the rise of promiscuity as the norm.  This is something that is not spoken of to the masses. (but in truth they probably wouldn't believe it anyway)
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Waskiewicz on October 07, 2011, 12:37:37 PM
MaterDominici,

Thank you for the book recommendation! I was looking through it and saw this:
Quote
The end for which marriage was instituted was a most difficult end to attain. Indeed, it were an impossible task without the special divine helps provided.


What role do you all think the grace conferred in the Sacrament plays in a marriage's fruitfulness and success?
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Waskiewicz on October 07, 2011, 01:02:26 PM
Quote from: ManofGosh
I try to look at it from the will of God and not from the modern worlds' "civil unions". If you want the world to be good then fill it with good people. That is the will of God, his master plan for us, to make as many people as he can Saints. I find this my mission in life(vocation) to leave a legacy of the Glory of God through my family. Hopefully in the process God will make a Saint of me.


ManofGosh, thank you so much for sharing these stories with us! They're quite beautiful and I'm always edified by the examples of fellow Catholics. In addition to which, I'm pleased you brought up the will of God. What I quoted above is great advice. In my opinion, divorce like every error of man, is usually just people neglecting His Holy Will to do whatever it is that pleases them at the moment. I think a marriage founded on His will and lived everyday according to His wishes couldn't fail.

I'm so happy God has blessed you with a family of 10! I will pray that He continues to shower you and yours with graces. I certainly wish I had all those little pure souls to pray Mary's Holy Rosary with me. :)
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: ManofGosh on October 07, 2011, 11:31:40 PM
Quote from: Waskiewicz
Quote from: ManofGosh
I try to look at it from the will of God and not from the modern worlds' "civil unions". If you want the world to be good then fill it with good people. That is the will of God, his master plan for us, to make as many people as he can Saints. I find this my mission in life(vocation) to leave a legacy of the Glory of God through my family. Hopefully in the process God will make a Saint of me.


ManofGosh, thank you so much for sharing these stories with us! They're quite beautiful and I'm always edified by the examples of fellow Catholics. In addition to which, I'm pleased you brought up the will of God. What I quoted above is great advice. In my opinion, divorce like every error of man, is usually just people neglecting His Holy Will to do whatever it is that pleases them at the moment. I think a marriage founded on His will and lived everyday according to His wishes couldn't fail.

I'm so happy God has blessed you with a family of 10! I will pray that He continues to shower you and yours with graces. I certainly wish I had all those little pure souls to pray Mary's Holy Rosary with me. :)


 Thank you for the kind words. One last thing on Virtue. Virtue is so important for you to be a good parent. Without it your kids will certainly walk all over you, causing you grief the rest of your life, and never fulfilling their purpose. You see this a lot in the world now. God will grow your Virtue by receiving the Sacraments and prayer. God will use trials that you can handle to also grow your Virtue. For example if you pray for Patience, he may give you a very energetic child to help you obtain that Virtue.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Waskiewicz on October 08, 2011, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: Telesphorus
There is a direct relationship between the breakdown of marriage as an institution and the rise of promiscuity as the norm.  This is something that is not spoken of to the masses. (but in truth they probably wouldn't believe it anyway)


Tele, I was able to find some great quotes from popes, especially Pope Leo XIII, supporting this claim. Thank you for steering me in that direction! I think a lot of truths in Catholicism get lost on the masses because they don't understand the whole picture. There is such remarkable unity in the Catholic Faith that there's no doubting its Divine, there's no doubting its Truth. All the pieces we profess to believe fit together so perfectly, but taken out of context and put on a corrupt society that generally denies even the existence of an absolute truth and well...

Nevertheless, let us pray with St. Augustine,
Quote
As to those who deny them, let them bark away as they will and deafen themselves: yet I shall strive to persuade them to silence, shall strive to open a way by which Your word may come to them.

Confessions XII.xvi


---

Quote from: ManofGosh
Thank you for the kind words. One last thing on Virtue. Virtue is so important for you to be a good parent. Without it your kids will certainly walk all over you, causing you grief the rest of your life, and never fulfilling their purpose. You see this a lot in the world now. God will grow your Virtue by receiving the Sacraments and prayer. God will use trials that you can handle to also grow your Virtue. For example if you pray for Patience, he may give you a very energetic child to help you obtain that Virtue.


I really liked this post, ManofGosh. And silly people say He doesn't answer our prayers! His ways are just higher than our ways. I almost have to laugh though when He works in such a manner. I hope you don't mind me using this to branch off in a new thread: my comments were just going to be too off topic. :)
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Graham on October 10, 2011, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: Waskiewicz
What do you find are the main social benefits? Spiritual benefits? Do the benefits matter or is it based solely on something more?


Trying not to overthink it: disposable relationships base themselves on and encourage selfish desire and chaos, whereas lifelong marriages do the same for selfless love and order. I would collapse the distinction between social and spiritual benefits, since they're both fruits of spiritual growth. Order and Chaos first exist personally, in the being, and radiate from thence into the structure of society. The final question doesn't apply here because selfless love and order are both beneficial in effect and good in themselves.

As for enumerating benefits more specifically, I'm certain that there is no other basis that will preserve tradition and the stability of family, economy, politics, and individual psychologies.

But is there something more? The Christian ideal of marriage reflects truth and therefore produces the likeness of God in those who live in it. There is one God, and one creation, his love for which is unconditional and everlasting; Jesus himself promised to abide with his Church until the end of time. Divinity is absolute. The Christian seeking salvation must learn to mirror the Yes and No of the divine will in his own.

Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Waskiewicz on October 13, 2011, 01:08:19 PM
Graham, thank you for putting the thought into it that you did! You gave me a lot to ponder. The Order versus Chaos analogy was genius. I hadn't thought about it, but it's so typical of His creations.

Quote from: Graham
But is there something more? The Christian ideal of marriage reflects truth and therefore produces the likeness of God in those who live in it. There is one God, and one creation, his love for which is unconditional and everlasting; Jesus himself promised to abide with his Church until the end of time. Divinity is absolute. The Christian seeking salvation must learn to mirror the Yes and No of the divine will in his own.


I’m so happy you mentioned it producing the likeness of God.  Marriage is obviously a beauty since God created it. But when one meditates on reasons for this beauty: for the goodness in a Christian marriage, they only arrive at God. Oh parallelism! With the eyes of faith, how easy He is to be seen and how much He desires to be known. How poor the couples are who do not know Him, and endlessly consume themselves in their selfish pleasures…the gratification of which only stands to increase their desires. May the Lord have mercy on them.

I must add, thank you for speaking of Him. I could listen forever.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Graham on October 13, 2011, 03:11:50 PM
Quote from: Waskiewicz
Graham, thank you for putting the thought into it that you did! You gave me a lot to ponder. The Order versus Chaos analogy was genius. I hadn't thought about it, but it's so typical of His creations.


In some Medieval versions, after St. George conquers the Dragon he makes the lady his wife. In the contemporary version the dragon eats them both.


Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Jessa on October 24, 2011, 01:27:18 AM
Quote from: Waskiewicz
Have Relationships Become Disposable?

Obviously the answer is yes, they're the same as all other goods in society today. For an ethics paper, I'm on the hunt for opinions of Catholics as to why it is necessary that marriage be a lifelong commitment. What do you find are the main social benefits? Spiritual benefits? Do the benefits matter or is it based solely on something more?

In addition to your own opinions which I'd love to hear, I also was curious if any of the married-folk (or others) might know any good writings of the saints or other sound Catholic authors I could peruse.

Thank you in advance. I look forward to reading what you have to say!


If you are not marrying the person for a lifelong commitment, you shouldn't be getting married, don't marry outside your faith, the person you marry should know your views/goals/opinions etc and you know theirs. I'm not aware of any "social benefits" Spiritual, it's what God wants for you, a sacramental marriage and I'm sure their are many spiritual benefits that some married people can tell you. I think with the right person and in a sacramental marriage, that you can be married to the same person- my grandparents were married like 60 some years! I assure you, it can be done and even though society makes marriage look like a game, it's not. THey think " you can just go get divorced if it doesn't go the way you want it" America has the highest divorce rate......for a reason.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Telesphorus on October 27, 2011, 08:00:42 PM
Quote
I'm not aware of any "social benefits"


You're not?  That sounds like you have a pretty low view of marriage, since human society is organized around the family - it's obviously essential to human society, so there must be social benefits.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: Darcy on October 27, 2011, 08:28:30 PM
Committment and monogamy should be as natural as brushing one's teeth. It shouldn't even conjure up much thought or its utility belabored. It should be taken for granted.
But our consumer driven society and materialistic life-styles and 1000 friend facebook virtual realities have destroyed this bliss.
Title: Have Relationships Become Disposable?
Post by: copticruiser on October 30, 2011, 04:06:29 PM
Unless your a traditonal knowledgable practising catholic the views on lifelong committment in marriage are different from todays Catholic. With annulments ranging from 300 world wide in the 50's to 70 000 just in North America in the 1980's its no wonder that Catholics themselves have a harder time finding True Catholic Partners.


The council of trent catechism gives explicit teaching on marriage and its teaching is unfortunatley far removed from our Christain and current Catholic understanding.

Myself I was fortunatle to marry a practising Catholic who knew that the vows were death till you part regardless of circumstances or feelings.

Now that I have 6 of my own children I hope to come across real catholics so my kids dont have to fine comb the population which is out there.

What a burden for a parent to worry that her kids marry partners who allow themselves the freedom of divorce and remarriage. Who dont simply keep 2000yr old catholic teaching and stick to it but become inventors of the faith like we live in now, which usually serves themselves and not the will of God.

I fought like crazy with my hubby the first few years. I was young, immature and he nor I had been married before. The understanding of the covenant we entered into overode our feelings and we eventually worked it out. Through prayer, and guidence etc.

I truly believed the blessings and fruits which we enjoy today is due to the commitment we had to God and to the sacrament of marriage which my children Im sure are thankful for.

My thoughts, Annie