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Author Topic: Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?  (Read 10463 times)

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Offline MrYeZe

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Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
« on: October 02, 2015, 11:23:53 PM »
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  • Mind you, I'm not talking about sinners that might be on the fence, or are trying to better themselves, I'm talking about truly obstinate sinners, that hate God, and willingly embrace evil at every turn, and blaspheme his name in common speech.  I know God hated people in the Old Testament, as the scriptures say.  I also know the New Testament tells us to love 'our' enemies, however, I would think that our own personal enemies are different from those who are enemies of God.  
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

       -Thomas Aquinas

    "Even if my own father were a heretic, I would gather the wood to burn him"

    -Pope Paul IV


    Offline poche

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 12:45:21 AM »
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  • There was a sinner like that in France. He had commited murder and was sentenced to death. Everyone in France heard about how he had refused to see the priest for confession before his execution. St Therese, the Little Flower prayed for him.
    Sometime later, the priest who was the chaplain of the prison gave a talk at her convent. This priest related that on his way to be put to death this prisoner reached out, took hold of his crucifix, and kissed it.


    Offline clare

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 02:54:58 AM »
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  • Hatred of persons is a sin against the Fifth Commandment.

    Trent Catechism

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    Love Of Neighbour Inculcated

    The mandatory part of this Commandment, as Christ our Lord enjoins, requires that we have peace with all men. Interpreting the Commandment He says: If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath anything against thee; leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother, and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift, etc.

    Charity To All Commanded

    In explaining this admonition, the pastor should show that it inculcates the duty of charity towards all without exception. In his instruction on the precept he should exhort the faithful as much as possible to the practice of this virtue, since it is especially included in this precept. For since hatred is clearly forbidden by this Commandment, as whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer, it follows, as an evident consequence, that the Commandment also inculcates charity and love.

    Offline clare

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 02:58:06 AM »
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  • Summa Theologica

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    I answer that, Hatred is opposed to love, as stated above (I-II, 29, 2); so that hatred of a thing is evil according as the love of that thing is good. Now love is due to our neighbor in respect of what he holds from God, i.e. in respect of nature and grace, but not in respect of what he has of himself and from the devil, i.e. in respect of sin and lack of justice.

    Consequently it is lawful to hate the sin in one's brother, and whatever pertains to the defect of Divine justice, but we cannot hate our brother's nature and grace without sin. Now it is part of our love for our brother that we hate the fault and the lack of good in him, since desire for another's good is equivalent to hatred of his evil. Consequently the hatred of one's brother, if we consider it simply, is always sinful.



    Offline Nadir

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 04:18:47 AM »
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  • MrYeZe, you need to read the saints more.

    http://www.marypages.com/ratisbonneEng1.htm
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 06:09:06 AM »
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  • Quote from: MrYeZe
    Mind you, I'm not talking about sinners that might be on the fence, or are trying to better themselves, I'm talking about truly obstinate sinners, that hate God, and willingly embrace evil at every turn, and blaspheme his name in common speech.  I know God hated people in the Old Testament, as the scriptures say.  I also know the New Testament tells us to love 'our' enemies, however, I would think that our own personal enemies are different from those who are enemies of God.  


    I used to think hate the sin love the sinner was wrong myself - until I was corrected, I think it was some posters from this forum who corrected me. For me, that was probably one of the hardest pills I ever had to swallow.

    I think the problem I had was that today, loving the sinner means you have to  also love the sin or you do not really love the sinner - which is completely Jєω inspired and entirely wrong.

    A year or two ago, a close relation who was strictly trad her whole life ran off suddenly to live in sin. Perhaps if you look at it like that, it will give new meaning and help you better understand what loving the sinner but hating the sin means.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Cantarella

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #6 on: October 03, 2015, 10:15:48 AM »
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  • There exist cases of "virtuous hatred", which actually belongs to Charity. "one hates what is bad in a person and loves what is good in him". The conclusion is that it is our duty to hate in the sinner his being a sinner, and to love in him his being a man capable of achieving eternal happiness:

    From the Summa:

    Quote from: St. Thomas

    Whether sinners must be loved out of charity

    Objection 1: It seems that we should not love sinners out of charity. For it is written in the Psalms:"I have hated the wicked" (Ps 118:113). Now, David had perfect charity. Therefore, sinners should be hated rather than loved, out of charity.

    Objection 2: Further, "love is proved by deeds," as St. Gregory says in a homily for Pentecost (In Evang. 30). But good men do no works of love to the wicked: on the contrary they do works that appear to be of hate, according to the Psalm (100: 8): "In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land;" also, God commanded in Exodus (22:18): "You shall not suffer a witch to live." Therefore, sinners should not be loved out of charity.

    Objection 3: Further, it is proper to friendship that one should desire and wish good things for one's friends. Now the saints, out of charity, desired evil things for the wicked, according to Psalm 9:18: "May the wicked be turned into Hell." Therefore sinners should not be loved out of charity.

    Objection 4: Further, it is proper to friends to rejoice in and desire the same things. Now charity does not make us desire what the sinners desire, nor to rejoice in what gives them joy, but rather the contrary. Therefore, sinners should not be loved out of charity.

    Objection 5: Further, it is proper to friends to associate together, according to Ethics (chap 5, n. 3). But we should not associate with sinners, according to 2 Cor 6: 17: "Wherefore come out from among them and be separate." Therefore, we should not love sinners out of charity.

     On the contrary, Augustine says (De Doctrina Christi I, 30), "When it is said: Thou shalt love thy neighbor, it is evident that we ought to look upon every man as our neighbor." Now, sinners do not cease to be men, for sin does not destroy nature. Therefore, we ought to love sinners out of charity.

     I answer to these arguments that two things should be considered in the sinner, his nature and his guilt. According to his nature, which he has from God, he has a capacity for eternal happiness upon which the relationship of charity is based. as stated above (A. 3, q. 23, a. 1-5). Wherefore, we ought to love sinners out of charity in respect to their nature. [4]

     On the other hand, their guilt offends God and is an impediment to their eternal happiness. Wherefore, in respect to their guilt, so long as they offend God all sinners ought to be hated, even one's father or mother or kindred, according to Luke (14:26). [5] For it is our duty to hate in the sinner his being a sinner, and to love in him his being a man capable of achieving eternal happiness. [6] This is to love him out of charity for the love of God.


    ------------------------------------


    Reply to objection 1: The Prophet hated the iniquitous as such, and the object of his hate was their iniquity. [7]This is the perfect hatred of which the same Prophet says (Ps. 139: 22): "I hate them with a perfect hatred." Now, for this same reason one hates what is bad in a person and loves what is good in him. Hence also this perfect hatred belongs to charity. [8]

    Reply to objection 2: As the Philosopher observes (Ethics, 9, 3), when our friends fall into sin, we should not deny them the benefits of friendship so long as there is hope of their mending their ways. And we should help them regain virtue more readily than to regain money, had they lost it, for virtue means more to friendship than money. [9]

     When, however, such persons fall into very great wickedness and become incurable, we should refuse them friendly treatment. It is for this reason that both divine and human laws command such sinners to be put to death, because it is more likely that they will harm others than mend their ways. [10]  

     Nevertheless the judge issues such sentences not out of hatred for the sinners, but out of love of charity, because he prefers the public good to the life of one single person. Moreover, the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner if he converts, as expiation for his crime; and if he does not convert, it profits him by putting an end to his sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin more.

    Reply to objection 3: Such like imprecations that we come across in the Holy Scripture may be understood in three ways: First, by way of prediction, not by way of wish, so that the sense is: "The wicked shall be turned into Hell."
     Second, by way of wish, so that the wishers desire refers not to the punishment the man receives, but to the justice of the punisher, according to Psalm 58:11: "The just shall rejoice when he shall see revenge." For according to the Book of Wisdom (1:13), not even God "delights in the perdition of the wicked" when He punishes them, but He rejoices in His justice, according to the Psalm (11:7): "The Lord is righteous and He loves righteousness."
     Third, so that this desire refers to the removal of the guilt, not of the chastisement, [11] in such a way that the sin be destroyed, but the man may live.

    Reply to objection 4: We love sinners out of charity not so as to desire what they desire and to rejoice in what gives them joy, but so as to make them desire what we desire and rejoice in what makes us rejoice. [12] Hence it is written (Jer 15:19): "Let them convert unto you; but you shall not convert unto them."

    Reply to objection 5: The weak should avoid communicating with sinners on account of the danger of being perverted by them. But it is commendable for the perfect, [13] whose fall is not to be feared, to communicate with sinners in order to convert them. Thus, the Lord ate and drank with sinners as reported in Matthew 9:11-13. Yet all should avoid the society of sinners when it means participation in sin. Thus it is written (2 Cor 6:17): "Go away from among them and touch not the unclear thing," that is, what is in accordance with sin. [14]



    Virtuous hatred belongs to charity

    Quote

     St. Luke (14:26) says: "If any man comes to Me, and hates not his father and mother, and his wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." It is a mistake to think that Our Lord did not teach that we can hate. There is a holy hatred that is an evangelical virtue. A love that would not generate hatred would not be love. Indeed, if I love someone, I must hate what brings evil to him. It is this holy hatred - its motives, nature and limits - that is magnificently taught in this text of St. Thomas.

     When Should We Love Sinners & When Should We Hate Them?
    http://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/D031_Goodheart_2.htm

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #7 on: October 03, 2015, 10:55:50 AM »
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  • Of course, all human passions should be carefully regulated as they are naturally disordered as a result of Original Sin. Unrestrained love of creatures can be just as bad and dangerous as unrestrained hatred. (Just think of the unthinkable acceptance and promotion of sodomite "marriage"), furthermore, unrestrained love of creatures is not the same a true supernatural Charity which is needed for salvation. We must love God above all things and our neighbor for His Glory. Hatred also has its proper place, but with the necessary balance and restrain.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline clare

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #8 on: October 03, 2015, 11:32:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    There exist cases of "virtuous hatred", which actually belongs to Charity. "one hates what is bad in a person and loves what is good in him". The conclusion is that it is our duty to hate in the sinner his being a sinner, and to love in him his being a man capable of achieving eternal happiness...

    Yes, we should hate what the sinner is doing to himself (and to God) because we love him (and God).

    Offline clare

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #9 on: October 03, 2015, 11:34:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Psalm 138: 21-22
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    Have I not hated them, O Lord, that hated thee: and pine away because of thy enemies? I have hated them with a perfect hatred: and they are become enemies to me.

    Enough said.

    That is not enough said, on its own. There's plenty else to say about it!

    Offline clare

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #10 on: October 03, 2015, 03:05:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Are we called to be like our Father in Heaven? (Matthew 5:48)

    Romans 9:13 (and Malachi 1:1-3)
    Quote
    As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.

    The Church is the interpreter of Scripture, so look to the Church's interpretation of that passage.

    The Catechism of Trent does not say we may hate anyone, but that we should be charitable to all without exception. No exception even in regard to God's enemies.

    As we know, His enemies sometimes become His friends, and His friends sometimes become His enemies.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #11 on: October 03, 2015, 03:56:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote from: ascent
    Are we called to be like our Father in Heaven? (Matthew 5:48)

    Romans 9:13 (and Malachi 1:1-3)
    Quote
    As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.

    The Church is the interpreter of Scripture, so look to the Church's interpretation of that passage.

    The Catechism of Trent does not say we may hate anyone, but that we should be charitable to all without exception. No exception even in regard to God's enemies.

    As we know, His enemies sometimes become His friends, and His friends sometimes become His enemies.


    Well stated.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #12 on: October 03, 2015, 04:18:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote from: ascent
    Are we called to be like our Father in Heaven? (Matthew 5:48)

    Romans 9:13 (and Malachi 1:1-3)
    Quote
    As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.

    The Church is the interpreter of Scripture, so look to the Church's interpretation of that passage.

    The Catechism of Trent does not say we may hate anyone, but that we should be charitable to all without exception. No exception even in regard to God's enemies.

    As we know, His enemies sometimes become His friends, and His friends sometimes become His enemies.


    But there is an order to love and how various people should be treated. Should we treat an unrepentant sinner the same as a Saint? I don't think so. An unrepentant sinner should not be allowed to rise in the ranks within a society.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #13 on: October 03, 2015, 08:26:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: MrYeZe
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    The Catechism of Trent does not say we may hate anyone, but that we should be charitable to all without exception. No exception even in regard to God's enemies.


    Does it actually say that? I find it hard to believe that we are supposed to be charitable to those who literally want us dead....which to be fair, is the mass majority of the world right now, so fair point.


    We must love our enemy. That doesn't mean we can't go to war against the enemy if there is a just cause.

    Offline clare

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    Hate The Sin....Hate the Sinner?
    « Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 12:27:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: MrYeZe
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    The Catechism of Trent does not say we may hate anyone, but that we should be charitable to all without exception. No exception even in regard to God's enemies.


    Does it actually say that? I find it hard to believe that we are supposed to be charitable to those who literally want us dead....which to be fair, is the mass majority of the world right now, so fair point.

    Yes, it does. I quoted it on the first page, but I'll quote it again:

    Trent Catechism

    Quote
    Love Of Neighbour Inculcated

    The mandatory part of this Commandment, as Christ our Lord enjoins, requires that we have peace with all men. Interpreting the Commandment He says: If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath anything against thee; leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother, and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift, etc.

    Charity To All Commanded

    In explaining this admonition, the pastor should show that it inculcates the duty of charity towards all without exception. In his instruction on the precept he should exhort the faithful as much as possible to the practice of this virtue, since it is especially included in this precept. For since hatred is clearly forbidden by this Commandment, as whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer, it follows, as an evident consequence, that the Commandment also inculcates charity and love.