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Author Topic: Good article: Why the Holy Ghost is represented by a white dove  (Read 107 times)

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Offline cassini

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Good article: Why the Holy Ghost is represented by a white dove
« on: Today at 09:10:04 AM »
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    • The dove is one of the most ancient symbols of God, recognized by Jews even before Jesus' baptism in the Jordan River.
    In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is specifically mentioned as coming in the form of a dove. This occurs during Jesus' baptism where it is written, "the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove" (Luke 3:22).

    Why a dove? What is so special about this particular bird?

    Jєωιѕн tradition
    First of all, biblical scholars have pointed out how the Babylonian тαℓмυd likens the Spirit of God that hovers over the waters at creation as a dove, "And the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters— like a dove which hovers over her young without touching [them]." This is not explicitly mentioned in the book of Genesis, but is alluded to in some translations where it is written, "the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2).

    Secondly, a dove was sent out by Noah in search of land after the waters of the flood stopped. Genesis recounts how, "the dove came back to him in the evening, and lo, in her mouth a freshly plucked olive leaf" (Genesis 8:11). This episode is directly connected to Jesus' baptism as the flood is seen in Christianity as a type or prefigurement of baptism.

    Third, in a pagan context, doves were seen in the ancient world as representative of the divine. It was very common for gods or goddesses to be surrounded by doves.

    As a result, by the time of the New Testament, doves were already very much associated with God and specifically his Spirit. When a dove descended upon Jesus in the Jordan, those in the crowd would have recognized the spiritual significatnce.

    Early Christians readily accepted this imagery and soon after began depicting the Holy Spirit almost exclusively as a dove.

    The dove is seen in Christian art not only at the baptism of Jesus, but also in various biblical episodes such as the Annunciation, when Mary was greeted with the news that she would bear the Son of God. Some of the first tabernacles that contained the Eucharist were fashioned in the form of a dove suspended over the altar.

    The dove, with its pure white feathers, calls to mind the purity of God, and its swift flight in the air reminds us of the many movements of the Holy Spirit in our soul. It is a beautiful image, one that has lasted throughout the centuries.
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    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Good article: Why the Holy Ghost is represented by a white dove
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 09:55:56 AM »
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    • I remember seeing a dovelike 'statue" at the Phoenix chapel in the '90 s. That ceiling was designed to ruin symmetry/ balance...( it used to be a Protestant building). The crazy angles and pitches also bent your mind, so to speak. But Fr. FINNEGAN ? (RIP) had hung a dove , with wings spread out, about 8"" from the ceiling. It hung exactly over the tabernacle. The dove really made one think about God and heavenly realities. It really "fixed" the ridiculous ceiling.
    In 2015 their new church was blessed... I hope they flattened the old one.
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    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good article: Why the Holy Ghost is represented by a white dove
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 12:30:41 PM »
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good article: Why the Holy Ghost is represented by a white dove
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 12:38:01 PM »
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    • This actually reminds me of a debate I got into with Fr. Hewko (before his ordination) at STAS.  St. Thomas Aquinas actually argued that the dove was a real, actual dove.  I disagreed with that and felt that He only took on the appearance of a dove (Latin word here is specie ... which derives from the word to see/look and can mean either one).  I felt that this opinion of St. Thomas opened up a highly problematic can of worms.  Did the Holy Ghost just animate an existing dove or create a new one for Him to inhabit?  Was the dove dead or did the Holy Ghost "possess" an living dove?  If both the existing dove was there and the Holy Ghost, was there some other mystery of Incarnation here?  So after the Holy Ghost left the dove, did it cease to exist, did it drop dead?  Unless it ceased to exist, we'd be in search of some priceless holy relic.  In fact, unless it ceased to exist (if it was real at all), I'm sure Our Lord's disciples would have snatched it up to keep as a relic.  I felt it led to so many logical problems that I disagree with St. Thomas here and said it was just in the form or appearance of a dove, not somehow in or united to an actual dove (with or without its own animal soul).  In any case, Fr. Hewko was shocked and almost scandalized that I would disagree with St. Thomas.  I pointed out that St. Thomas was not infallible and that this was clearly a point of speculative theology that people could have varying opinions about without harm to faith or running afoul (pun intended at this time) of Revelation or the Magisterium ... but he wasn't convinced.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Good article: Why the Holy Ghost is represented by a white dove
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 01:03:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 12:38:01 PM
    This actually reminds me of a debate I got into with Fr. Hewko (before his ordination) at STAS.  St. Thomas Aquinas actually argued that the dove was a real, actual dove.  I disagreed with that and felt that He only took on the appearance of a dove (Latin word here is specie ... which derives from the word to see/look and can mean either one).  I felt that this opinion of St. Thomas opened up a highly problematic can of worms.  Did the Holy Ghost just animate an existing dove or create a new one for Him to inhabit?  Was the dove dead or did the Holy Ghost "possess" an living dove?  If both the existing dove was there and the Holy Ghost, was there some other mystery of Incarnation here?  So after the Holy Ghost left the dove, did it cease to exist, did it drop dead?  Unless it ceased to exist, we'd be in search of some priceless holy relic.  In fact, unless it ceased to exist (if it was real at all), I'm sure Our Lord's disciples would have snatched it up to keep as a relic.  I felt it led to so many logical problems that I disagree with St. Thomas here and said it was just in the form or appearance of a dove, not somehow in or united to an actual dove (with or without its own animal soul).  In any case, Fr. Hewko was shocked and almost scandalized that I would disagree with St. Thomas.  I pointed out that St. Thomas was not infallible and that this was clearly a point of speculative theology that people could have varying opinions about without harm to faith or running afoul (pun intended at this time) of Revelation or the Magisterium ... but he wasn't convinced.
    Which story are you talking about -- Noah or Jesus' baptism?

    Noah released the dove from the ark and it flew back with the olive branch.  It was a real dove.  God simply guided the dove back to the ark (like He has guided many animals in history).  The dove was acting like a dove.  It flew out, it grabbed a branch and flew back.  Nothing contrary to a dove's essence.  I fail to see the need for the Holy Ghost to animate this bird.

    In the case of Jesus' baptism, the dove landed on his head (or hovered above, or both).  This is what doves do (or can do).  Nothing miraculous or out-of-character for the bird.  But God probably guided the dove where and when to land/hover.
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    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Good article: Why the Holy Ghost is represented by a white dove
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 01:20:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 01:03:46 PM
    Which story are you talking about -- Noah or Jesus' baptism?

    Noah released the dove from the ark and it flew back with the olive branch.  It was a real dove.  God simply guided the dove back to the ark (like He has guided many animals in history).  The dove was acting like a dove.  It flew out, it grabbed a branch and flew back.  Nothing contrary to a dove's essence.  I fail to see the need for the Holy Ghost to animate this bird.

    In the case of Jesus' baptism, the dove landed on his head (or hovered above, or both).  This is what doves do (or can do).  Nothing miraculous or out-of-character for the bird.  But God probably guided the dove where and when to land/hover.
    I think in both cases it is an actual dove being influenced, inspired, or something (finding the correct word is not my strong suit) by God and we call these inspirations the Holy Ghost.  At Pentecost, was their a dove involved or just flames? If animals can be moved by the Holy Ghost, then can animals be moved by angels or demons?
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"
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