Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Raoul76 on March 06, 2011, 06:25:31 PM
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I was invited to go to a restaurant today after Mass at CMRI. I don't go out to eat on Sunday because it keeps people working for unnecessary reasons ( I'll get gas, since gas stations need to be open on Sunday for many legitimate reasons ).
One friend of mine, who is eighty, told me that in the 40's and 50's, towns were absolutely dead on Sunday. That was all I needed to hear, since then I haven't gone out to eat on that day.
Result: I was told I have scruples, that all the priests go to restaurants on Sundays. It is true that I seem to be the only one there who has this rule.
Do you go to restaurants on Sundays? Discuss.
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I was invited to go to a restaurant today after Mass at CMRI. I don't go out to eat on Sunday because it keeps people working for unnecessary reasons ( I'll get gas, since gas stations need to be open on Sunday for many legitimate reasons ).
One friend of mine, who is eighty, told me that in the 40's and 50's, towns were absolutely dead on Sunday. That was all I needed to hear, since then I haven't gone out to eat on that day.
Result: I was told I have scruples, that all the priests go to restaurants on Sundays. It is true that I seem to be the only one there who has this rule.
Do you go to restaurants on Sundays? Discuss.
Food has to be cooked on Sundays. The restaurant industry itself might be a problem.
I think you shouldn't always tell people of your opinions - I don't think you're wrong to stay away from restaurants on Sunday. It's commendable, so long as you don't offend people unnecessarily.
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I remember in the 1950's and early 1960's, most
restaurants were closed. In those days, they were
mostly family run. One of my first job, was a bus
boy at a cafeteria. The owners were very religious,
but non Catholic, and were always closed on Sunday.
The town look like a ghost town on Sunday, except
the occasional Jєωιѕн run business. Most people
avoided any type of business on Sunday.
In those days, the churches were full, and people
repected, and honored the Lord's Day.
The Liberalism, the Secularism, and the Supreme
Court decision in banning prayer in the Public
Schools cause the change in what we see today.
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Coming to the present day, I still follow my 1950's habits
of abstaining from unnecessary labor, and any business
on Sunday, unless it is an emergency.
I never dine out on Sunday. After Church, I go my way.
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Telesphorus said:
I think you shouldn't always tell people of your opinions - I don't think you're wrong to stay away from restaurants on Sunday. It's commendable, so long as you don't offend people unnecessarily.
They asked me to go. In the time I had to formulate a response, I couldn't find anything else to say, any other way to get out of it. If I had said "I'm busy" or "I'm tired" or something, it would have been a lie.
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There is indeed a contrast in how people spent their Sunday back then and today. Back then people were most inclined to spend their Sunday at home, unless there was some parish activity (which would occasionally include sports). Today a lot of people appear to spend their Sunday going out on the town. If your out and about trying to enjoy yourself (especially if it's your only day off from work) your not going to race home to cook a hot meal for yourself every time you get hungry. So I believe that the restaurants serve the same purpose as the gas stations, only perhaps to a lesser degree.
Also, when I get out of Church after Mass, Im hungry, and the cold packed lunch is far from satisfying.
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I remember in the 1950's and early 1960's, most
restaurants were closed. In those days, they were
mostly family run. One of my first job, was a bus
boy at a cafeteria. The owners were very religious,
but non Catholic, and were always closed on Sunday.
The town look like a ghost town on Sunday, except
the occasional Jєωιѕн run business. Most people
avoided any type of business on Sunday.
In those days, the churches were full, and people
repected, and honored the Lord's Day.
The Liberalism, the Secularism, and the Supreme
Court decision in banning prayer in the Public
Schools cause the change in what we see today.
Reading the note above, makes me wonder why God allowed Vatican II to happen. I always felt He allowed it because Catholics were not doing the above.
I recall a great big banner in our Church when the stores started to open on Sunday, it read:
STOP! Don't shop on Sunday, I guess this was in the early 50's, I seem to remember being about 10 years old or so.
Yes, I have gone out with my husband and family for breakfast after Mass, otherwise I just go home and work fixing it at home for them.
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Thanks RomanCatholic1953.
I think I made the right decision for once. It's hard to tell if you're being prideful sometimes, or if you're really doing the right thing. When all the priests are okay with going to restaurants, it makes you feel like you have to go along, but I'm aware that there are varying opinions on this question.
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If you are really starving, and it is a long drive home from Mass, then obviously there's no problem with it. As Samurai says, it can be justified like going to a gas station.
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I have to be careful here since this is permitted by all the priests... I'm not trying to be insubordinate. This is just one of those many minor controversies like medical marijuana or pants on women.
CMRI, it is no secret, tends to the liberal end of the spectrum, not in terms of their dogma, which is Catholic, but when it comes to moral theology. They are more liberal in that sense than SSPX who they consider overly strict with the dress code, things like that. Usually I agree with them, but not always.
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Telesphorus said:
I think you shouldn't always tell people of your opinions - I don't think you're wrong to stay away from restaurants on Sunday. It's commendable, so long as you don't offend people unnecessarily.
They asked me to go. In the time I had to formulate a response, I couldn't find anything else to say, any other way to get out of it. If I had said "I'm busy" or "I'm tired" or something, it would have been a lie.
That was rather scrupulous, if you refused the invitation on those grounds (if you would have gone otherwise).
I believe there are times when Friday abstinence is dispensed if one is in an awkward situation where refusing to eat meat would be very rude, that would be more serious than going to a restaurant on Sunday.
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Under most circuмstances we do not dine out nor shop on Sundays. Sunday is our family day. Mass for us is at 4 pm. We have a large brunch at 10 am. Occasionally, like for the Super Bowl, we stop and pick up a pizza. We went out to eat with our friends after our baby's Baptism. I have had to go to General Dollar on occasion for milk or band aids.
Having said that though, I grew up in the South. Up until about 1975 only the gas station was open on Sunday, and only until 5 pm. Nobody went shopping. The Churches were full and the streets were empty. Sunday was spent at Grandma's after Church. My parents didn't go to Church, but we went to Grandma's any way for a HUGE dinner.
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Our family always ate out after Mass on Sunday. Many of the people working in restaurants on Sundays are simply not concerned about not working on Sunday. If you have no choice about working, it is not a sin to o so.
I remember two of my children facing that problem as teenagers. One worked in a book store, the other in a hardware store. Both were open on Sunday. The owner of the bookstore was a Conservative Jew, and did not work on the Sabbath or on Jєωιѕн holy days, leaving the sore in the care of an assistant manager. When my son was hired, she asked him if he had any religious restrictions on when he would work. He told her that he could not work on Sundays, Good Friday, or Christmas. The store was closed on Christmas because there were no customers. She had no problem accommodating his desire to be off on Sunday and Good Friday, and said she admired his dedication. The hardware store manager was less happy about it, but he didn't push it either as long as my son was willing to work any other days asked.
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And I see someone is now ignoring me. I wonder who I annoyed.
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When I was a young child I would often go out to eat with my mother and grandmother on Sunday after Mass. We eventually stopped that though because my mother and I started going to the Traditional Latin Mass whenever we could, whereas my grandmother kept going to the NO and in fact only went to the TLM with us twice. Usually we do take-out on Sundays now. I don't think it's a sin to eat at a restaurant on Sunday, but I do think take-out would be better than exposing yourself to a large crowd containing people of mixed religions.
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Sunday was spent at Grandma's after Church.
And that's what I hate about my Sundays. :facepalm:
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Sunday was spent at Grandma's after Church.
And that's what I hate about my Sundays. :facepalm:
:laugh1:
I hear you. I was glad that we didn't live near my grandmother's when we were growing up. She was a flaming ecuмenist.
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:facepalm: Hey! I'm a grandma! :ready-to-eat:
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And I see someone is now ignoring me. I wonder who I annoyed.
I think it might be one person who ignores people for no reason just to push buttons. My 2nd ignore came from nowhere too.
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And I see someone is now ignoring me. I wonder who I annoyed.
I think it might be one person who ignores people for no reason just to push buttons. My 2nd ignore came from nowhere too.
My advice to anyone would be: anything under 5 ignores, I'd just "ignore it".
Consider 5 and under to be "low" ignores.
Ignore count only means something when you get up to 10 or more...you have to be un-appealing to a wide variety of people to achieve that :)
Matthew
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I discovered my ignore after a period of absence. It felt like I'd finally been accepted after moving to a country town 20 years ago. I really cherish it and strangely enough have posted a few times recently, too.
Then there's the matter of my beautiful flag not displaying any more. Problem there is that I can't ignore the bloke who did that to me, LOL.
Back on track, this is an interesting topic. I don't go out shopping etc on Sunday, but must own up to breakfast on the way home - probably the result of not considering my actions enough.
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And I see someone is now ignoring me. I wonder who I annoyed.
Yea, me too.
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I was invited to go to a restaurant today after Mass at CMRI. I don't go out to eat on Sunday because it keeps people working for unnecessary reasons ( I'll get gas, since gas stations need to be open on Sunday for many legitimate reasons ).
One friend of mine, who is eighty, told me that in the 40's and 50's, towns were absolutely dead on Sunday. That was all I needed to hear, since then I haven't gone out to eat on that day.
Result: I was told I have scruples, that all the priests go to restaurants on Sundays. It is true that I seem to be the only one there who has this rule.
Do you go to restaurants on Sundays? Discuss.
You do have scruples. The admonition to not work on a Sunday applies to hard labor type work - it does not apply to doing work which is light, such as cleaning the house, studying, working in your gardens, etc. It is also completely acceptable to earn money from your labor on a Sunday.
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You do have scruples. The admonition to not work on a Sunday applies to hard labor type work - it does not apply to doing work which is light, such as cleaning the house, studying, working in your gardens, etc. It is also completely acceptable to earn money from your labor on a Sunday.
The way you describe it seems to lax. Even the stock exchanges still take off on Sunday. Opening a shop on Sunday?
As many posters have mentioned - in the past most businesses were closed.
The source I saw stated that sewing was out. If plowing was forbidden I don't see how one can take a roto-tiller to their garden on Sunday. Or mow the lawn. Or do a thorough cleaning of the house from top to bottom.
All those are fairly servile occupations.
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I once asked an SSPX priest if it was a sin to eat out on Sunday and he said no, it was not. Every Sunday after Mass a group of us go out to eat at a diner. Sometimes the priest comes with us.
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Jamie said:
The admonition to not work on a Sunday applies to hard labor type work - it does not apply to doing work which is light, such as cleaning the house, studying, working in your gardens, etc.
Yeah, I clean the house a bit on Sunday, I'll do laundry or whatever is urgently pressing. But what, pray tell, does that have to do with working in a restaurant?
Jamie, working in a restaurant all day, up on your feet, lugging trays back and forth could easily be classified under hard labor. It's far harder labor than tending to sheep, which was considered to be working on the Sabbath. What, does hard labor only qualify as working in a saw mill or something, or in a mine, or fixing cars? The point is, it's a day of rest and meditation.
What about walking the dog on Sunday? I figure that's okay because it would be just like going out for a stroll yourself, which is certainly not forbidden. Except walking my dog feels like labor. She needs long walks and I'm sweating at the end of it.
Jamie said:
It is also completely acceptable to earn money from your labor on a Sunday.
Yeah, if you have to. It's not desirable though. Anyway, that's not the question I'm asking. If God allows a man to provide for his family by working on Sunday when he has no other choice, that doesn't mean that I personally, who do have a choice, have to go to a restaurant and support labor on Sunday.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Fatima. Probably everyone here is a bigger fan of that apparition than I am, and if that was really Mary, she said that the disrespect of the Sabbath was one of the main offenses that was bringing down God's wrath.
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Matto said:
"I once asked an SSPX priest if it was a sin to eat out on Sunday and he said no, it was not. Every Sunday after Mass a group of us go out to eat at a diner. Sometimes the priest comes with us.
Oh really Matto?
Here, this is from one of your early posts where you were describing your ideal Catholic monarchy, sounding much like our erstwhile member the "Great Monarch" with the same mocking, exaggerated tone ( saying that women who wore pants would be flogged, etc. )
Matto said:
"Unnecessary work on Sunday would be prohibited and stores would all be closed on Sunday, even if they were owned by Jews or other non-believers."
Let me guess, you'd close the stores but restaurants are okay?
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The way it was explained to me, its UNnecessary work, some work is necessary, in fact isn't there a story in the Bible about something about an animal falling into a pit, and discussion about working to get it out.
When you have a job, and it becomes necessary to hold that job working on a Sunday, I believe God considers it necessary. Cooking is necessary, nursing is necessary, keeping things running in the world is necessary.
All of you who go to the poor grandmothers house on Sunday, did you ever think how hard she is working?
Our priest do not agree with doing gardening on Sunday, even if it for enjoyment. I believe the reason was scandal.
Recreation is okay. However if those who feel it is so wrong to eat out on Sunday, probably would feel it wrong also to play golf, go bowling or even to a good movie, or play, if you can find one, because by going, you might be causing someone else to work. Even getting gas, might be causing the gas station attendent to work.
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I guess there is a difference between unnecessary shopping and eating at a restaurant because eating is necessary, even on Sunday. Thank you for digging up my old if I were king post, Raoul.
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And I see someone is now ignoring me. I wonder who I annoyed.
I think it might be one person who ignores people for no reason just to push buttons. My 2nd ignore came from nowhere too.
My advice to anyone would be: anything under 5 ignores, I'd just "ignore it".
Consider 5 and under to be "low" ignores.
Ignore count only means something when you get up to 10 or more...you have to be un-appealing to a wide variety of people to achieve that :)
Matthew
Well, that gives me something to shoot for. :)
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Regarding eating out on Sundays. Only if one must do it would it be acceptable.
But without necessity, however, it is definitively a mortal sin. For you are doing something without necessity, and only for pleasure, convenience or sloth, and by it helping your fellow brother or sister into committing a possible mortal sin by working unnecessarily on a Sunday.
Now, since many people who are reading this have not been taught these concepts by modernist heretics, we must point out a few other things in this regard: servile works are forbidden on Sundays; people should not do laundry on Sundays; people should not do yard work (such as mowing the lawn, etc.) on Sundays; people should not shop food on Sundays unless they are starving etc... Exceptions to this would be work that absolutely must be done, such as helping others spiritually or bodily (as working in a hospital), or if you had to make a fire in your home so that you can be warm and survive is a work that are completely acceptable. If you are able to make your food for the whole family before the Sunday, you should do so. One should not spend the Sunday on making food for the family which may take several hours of the day. You may of course (if you don't have any prepared food) take time to make something small for you or the family which does not require much of your time or take some food that you already have and warm it up. You cannot cut wood on Sundays and you must restrict yourself to only do things that are absolutely necessary for survival. This, of course, implies some preplanning, but no one should refuse to obey the divine commandments since this action will undoubtedly lead to eternal damnation. An obedient person will see the beauty of God forcing man to rest from physical works.
To do other unnecessary works on Sundays is completely unacceptable unless you starve and don't have the means necessary to support your family. In the richer countries, even going so far as begging or receiving social welfare checks every month is far better than to do unnecessary work on Sundays, since this not only damns yourself, but also damns your employer. Your employer will in fact be punished for every single person he has allowed or forced (by threatening with layoffs) to work on Sundays. That can be thousands and thousands of people attacking one man for all eternity! What a horror!
If you have exhausted all the options for receiving an income, for ex: looking for another job or moving to another place, or any other lawful means of receiving an income, (like receiving social welfare checks for the support of the necessities for you or your family, as long as this do not imply that you have to compromise your faith in any way,) then you are not obligated to stay away from work and can safely work on Sundays as long as it is your last option. Below are some examples of acceptable reasons of why you can work on Sundays.
If you cannot continue home-schooling your children for example, this would be an acceptable reason with continuing to work on Sundays, another example would be if you had to move to a bad neighborhood with much drugs, violence or lasciviousness that would influence you or your family in a sinful way, or if by quitting your work, you may be forced to take another work that is sinful or immoral. This would be another reason to continue to work on Sundays until you have found another work where you are not forced to work on Sundays or forced to put your family's spiritual wellbeing in jeopardy.
This goes to say if the work you do is acceptable before God. If you sin against God by the specific work you do, such as selling contraception, porn, bad newspapers with immodest images or stories about sex or other sins etc, then you cannot go to that work even if you starve or don't have the means to support yourself or your family. In such cases you have to put your entire trust in God. You cannot be the cause of your brothers mortal sins without yourself being guilty of mortal sin!
“Therefore I say to you: Be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. The life is more than the meat: and the body is more than the raiment... seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice: and all these things shall be added unto you.” (Lk. 12:22-24, 27-28, 31)
However, in the poorer countries where there is no chance of getting social welfare or income in any other way, it is totally acceptable to work on Sundays as long as the person must do it in order to survive. Many people do not operate under these conditions but work on Sundays in order to have more money than they need to survive. Yes, many people have the means necessary to stay away from work on Sundays, but only go to work to receive more abundance in riches. This is a clear mortal sin!
The following example on this can be seen clearer from St. Bridget's revelations, in the book rightly entitled the Book of Questions. It is composed of questions which Our Lord and Judge give wonderful answers to:
“Third question. Again the monk appeared on his ladder as before saying: "Why should I not exalt myself over others, seeing that I am rich?"
Answer to the third question. The Judge answered: "As to why you must not take pride in riches, I answer: The riches of the world only belong to you insofar as you need them for food and clothing. The world was made for this: that man, having sustenance for his body, might through work and humility return to me, his God, whom he scorned in his disobedience and neglected in his pride. However, if you claim that the temporal goods belong to you, I assure you that you are in effect forcibly usurping for yourself all that you possess beyond your needs. All temporal goods ought to belong to the community and be equally accessible to the needy out of charity.
You usurp for your own superfluous possession things that should be given to others out of compassion. However, many people do own much more than others but in a rational way, and they distribute it in discreet fashion. Therefore, in order not to be accused more severely at the judgment because you received more than others, it is advisable for you not to put yourself ahead of others by acting haughtily and hoarding possessions. As pleasant as it is in the world to have more temporal goods than others and to have them in abundance, it will likewise be terrible and painful beyond measure at the judgment not to have administered in reasonable fashion even licitly held goods."
http://www.catholic-saints.net/saints/st-bridget/st-bridget-of-sweden.php (http://www.catholic-saints.net/saints/st-bridget/st-bridget-of-sweden.php)
“The third commandment is that thou have mind and remember that thou hallow and keep holy thy Sabbath day or Sunday. That is to say, that thou shalt do no work nor operation on the Sunday or holy day, but thou shalt rest from all worldly labour and intend to prayer, and to serve God thy maker, which rested the seventh day of the works that he made in the six days before, in which he made and ordained the world. This commandment accomplish he that keep to his power the peace of his conscience for to serve God more holily. Then this day that the Jews called Sabbath is as much to say as rest. This commandment may no man keep spiritually that is encuмbered in his conscience with deadly sin, such a conscience can not be in rest nor in peace as long as he is in such a state. In the stead of the Sabbath day which was straightly kept in the old law, holy church hath established the Sunday in the new law. For our Lord arose from death to life on the Sunday, and therefore we ought to keep it holily, and be in rest from the works of the week before, and to cease of the work of sin, and to intend to do spiritual works, and to follow our Lord beseeching him of mercy and to thank him for his benefits, for they that break the Sunday and the other solemn feasts that be established to be hallowed in holy church, they sin deadly, for they do directly against the commandment of God aforesaid and holy church, but if it be for some necessity that holy church admitteth and granteth. But they sin much more then, that employ the Sunday and the feasts in sins, in lechery, in going to taverns in the service time, in gluttony and drinking drunk, and in other sins, outrages against God. For alas for sorrow I trow there is more sin committed on the Sunday and holy days and feasts than in the other work days. For then be they drunk, fight and slay, and be not occupied virtuously in God’s service as they ought to do. And as God command us to remember and have in mind to keep and hallow the holy day, they that so do sin deadly and observe and keep not this third commandment.” (From the Golden legend or the Lives of the Saints, volume 1, page 122-123)
From the above quote can be learned that man should not do the things on a Sunday as he would do on the other days. The Sunday is intended for God to be kept in holiness. Thus, if the only difference for you on Sundays is that you keep away from servile work, and do not give any of your time to God, what profit is there for you?
God commanded at least one day off for man so that man could rest from the world and use it for his spiritual well being, in praying, reading and doing other good works for the soul. You should thus spend the Sunday in abstaining from your own will, such as watching the tv, playing games, listening to music or the radio, etc, and instead strive to know God in solitude, prayer and meditation.
Spiritual Information You Must Know About to be Saved (http://www.catholic-saints.net/spiritual/)
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That was a crazy post. It being a mortal sin to eat out on Sunday is your opinion. No proof has ever been provided that it's a sin to eat out on Sunday. Are you the same person who posted that thread a while back about it being a mortal sin to watch sports?
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And I see someone is now ignoring me. I wonder who I annoyed.
I think it might be one person who ignores people for no reason just to push buttons. My 2nd ignore came from nowhere too.
I just picked up my first, I didn't have any for a while. Doesn't really bother me though...
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Regarding eating out on Sundays. Only if one must do it would it be acceptable.
After Mass, Im hungry. Therefore, I must eat or I'll starve. It's that simple. I want to be able to make it home and be able to come back NEXT Sunday in order to fulfill my weekly obligation.
Hietanen, would you prevent someone from feeding the hungry (which is btw a corporal work of mercy)?
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Roscoe! How come your're not having a poke at this Jansenist? :rolleyes:
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Regarding eating out on Sundays. Only if one must do it would it be acceptable.
After Mass, Im hungry. Therefore, I must eat or I'll starve. It's that simple. I want to be able to make it home and be able to come back NEXT Sunday in order to fulfill my weekly obligation.
Hietanen, would you prevent someone from feeding the hungry (which is btw a corporal work of mercy)?
No, to help others (spiritually ans bodily), is always a work that is licit and acceptable, as I pointed out on the post.
The sick need to be tented, the hungry need to be feed.
Now, as I said, if you HAVE to eat out, because of necessity because of your (acceptable) work on a Sunday, for example, it would be licit. Another example, as you pointed out, is if you starve.
But I don't think you'll starve, as your excuse was, that is just ridiculous. Restaurants weren't even open on Sundays in many Countries and towns before the Vatican II revolution. People then managed to survive, and the rules of fasting before mass back then was much more strict than today.
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That was a crazy post. It being a mortal sin to eat out on Sunday is your opinion. No proof has ever been provided that it's a sin to eat out on Sunday. Are you the same person who posted that thread a while back about it being a mortal sin to watch sports?
It is a mortal sin to work unnecessarily on Sundays. Therefore, to help others in their unnecessary work on Sundays is likewise mortally sinful. It's simple logic. Besiedes, before Vatican II in most contires and town fully Catholic, all resturants or shops was closed. Think about that.
So, if you don't have to eat out, yet do so without a just cause, you are in fact committing a mortal sin of uncharity against your neighbor, whom you are helping in his deed of a possible mortal sin for doing unnecessary work on Sundays.
Regarding pro-sports on Sundays. They have their work and get a paycheck from it, so it's a work for them too. And there are many other reasons why a Catholic shouldn't take part or watch pro-sports, if you want to read more about it, feel free to do so,
http://www.catholic-saints.net/spiritual/#Pro-sports
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So, if you don't have to eat out, yet do so without a just cause, you are in fact committing a mortal sin of uncharity against your neighbor, whom you are helping in his deed of a possible mortal sin for doing unnecessary work on Sundays.
They get paid whether we show-up or not. However, in not showing-up, we may be contributing to them, eventually, getting laid-off, losing their homes, etc. Is not the Sabbath "made for man"? Which means that if you do not have to work, great, but if you do, that's okay?
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So, if you don't have to eat out, yet do so without a just cause, you are in fact committing a mortal sin of uncharity against your neighbor, whom you are helping in his deed of a possible mortal sin for doing unnecessary work on Sundays.
They get paid whether we show-up or not. However, in not showing-up, we may be contributing to them, eventually, getting laid-off, losing their homes, etc. Is not the Sabbath "made for man"? Which means that if you do not have to work, great, but if you do, that's okay?
No, if everyone kept the sabbath, no one would be laid of. Now, since no one keeps the sabbath, they will have their work anyway. The only difference, if you don't show up, is that you are not helping him out in his sin. What other people do, is not your fault.
Jehanne. It's only okay to do work on Sundays if you work in charity, or if you help poor, feed the hungry, tend the sick, and other like work, that must be done to keep society running. Other then that is it forbidden to work on Sundays. This is a divine law, and has always been held in the Church.
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So, if you don't have to eat out, yet do so without a just cause, you are in fact committing a mortal sin of uncharity against your neighbor, whom you are helping in his deed of a possible mortal sin for doing unnecessary work on Sundays.
They get paid whether we show-up or not. However, in not showing-up, we may be contributing to them, eventually, getting laid-off, losing their homes, etc. Is not the Sabbath "made for man"? Which means that if you do not have to work, great, but if you do, that's okay?
No, if everyone kept the sabbath, no one would be laid of. Now, since no one keeps the sabbath, they will have their work anyway. The only difference, if you don't show up, is that you are not helping him out in his sin. What other people do, is not your fault.
Jehanne. It's only okay to do work on Sundays if you work in charity, or if you help poor, feed the hungry, tend the sick, and other like work, that must be done to keep society running. Other then that is it forbidden to work on Sundays. This is a divine law, and has always been held in the Church.
Some people have to work on Sunday to feed their families. And, for the restaurant industry, Sunday is a big money-making day. So, if you do not go out to eat on Sunday, all that you are doing is driving up the unemployment rate, causing more foreclosures, etc.
Yes, I agree 100% that you should not do "needless work" on Sundays, but enjoying a "meal out" (which we, as a family, cannot afford) with one's family on Sunday is nothing to feel guilty about.
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So, if you don't have to eat out, yet do so without a just cause, you are in fact committing a mortal sin of uncharity against your neighbor, whom you are helping in his deed of a possible mortal sin for doing unnecessary work on Sundays.
They get paid whether we show-up or not. However, in not showing-up, we may be contributing to them, eventually, getting laid-off, losing their homes, etc. Is not the Sabbath "made for man"? Which means that if you do not have to work, great, but if you do, that's okay?
No, if everyone kept the sabbath, no one would be laid of. Now, since no one keeps the sabbath, they will have their work anyway. The only difference, if you don't show up, is that you are not helping him out in his sin. What other people do, is not your fault.
Jehanne. It's only okay to do work on Sundays if you work in charity, or if you help poor, feed the hungry, tend the sick, and other like work, that must be done to keep society running. Other then that is it forbidden to work on Sundays. This is a divine law, and has always been held in the Church.
Some people have to work on Sunday to feed their families. And, for the restaurant industry, Sunday is a big money-making day. So, if you do not go out to eat on Sunday, all that you are doing is driving up the unemployment rate, causing more foreclosures, etc.
Yes, I agree 100% that you should not do "needless work" on Sundays, but enjoying a "meal out" (which we, as a family, cannot afford) with one's family on Sunday is nothing to feel guilty about.
If they HAVE to work to feed their family, then they can go to work without problem. Have never said anything against that.
If one stays away for one day from work, that will not drive up the unemployment rate, causing more foreclosures, etc, as you claim. Many shops are still today closed on Sundays, and they are not going bankrupt because of it. Neither do big companies/restaurants need to work all days of the week to make profit.
Also, to keep God's commandments is more important then material satisfaction. If people CAN stay away from their work on Sundays, but does not do it, because they want to have more wealth then they needed, they are in fact sinning mortally.
Yes, to help other people commit mortal sins of unnecessary work on Sundays IS something to feel guilty about. Only someone without conscience would disagree after being presented with these facts.
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That was a crazy post. It being a mortal sin to eat out on Sunday is your opinion. No proof has ever been provided that it's a sin to eat out on Sunday. Are you the same person who posted that thread a while back about it being a mortal sin to watch sports?
It is a mortal sin to work unnecessarily on Sundays. Therefore, to help others in their unnecessary work on Sundays is likewise mortally sinful. It's simple logic. Besiedes, before Vatican II in most contires and town fully Catholic, all resturants or shops was closed. Think about that.
So, if you don't have to eat out, yet do so without a just cause, you are in fact committing a mortal sin of uncharity against your neighbor, whom you are helping in his deed of a possible mortal sin for doing unnecessary work on Sundays.
Regarding pro-sports on Sundays. They have their work and get a paycheck from it, so it's a work for them too. And there are many other reasons why a Catholic shouldn't take part or watch pro-sports, if you want to read more about it, feel free to do so,
http://www.catholic-saints.net/spiritual/#Pro-sports
Thanks, but I think I'll pass. I do agree that sports should not be played on Sunday, but just watching them is not a sin, much less a mortal sin. What makes you the authority to tell us what is and is not a mortal sin?
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Roscoe! How come your're not having a poke at this Jansenist? :rolleyes:
Because Roscoe's definition of a Jansenist is incorrect. He thinks anyone who tells him he's wrong to smoke pot is a Jansenist, he probably could care less if someone is on here saying that it's a mortal sin to eat out on Sunday. Heck, for all we know roscoe probably agrees with him!
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So, if you don't have to eat out, yet do so without a just cause, you are in fact committing a mortal sin of uncharity against your neighbor, whom you are helping in his deed of a possible mortal sin for doing unnecessary work on Sundays.
They get paid whether we show-up or not. However, in not showing-up, we may be contributing to them, eventually, getting laid-off, losing their homes, etc. Is not the Sabbath "made for man"? Which means that if you do not have to work, great, but if you do, that's okay?
No, if everyone kept the sabbath, no one would be laid of. Now, since no one keeps the sabbath, they will have their work anyway. The only difference, if you don't show up, is that you are not helping him out in his sin. What other people do, is not your fault.
Jehanne. It's only okay to do work on Sundays if you work in charity, or if you help poor, feed the hungry, tend the sick, and other like work, that must be done to keep society running. Other then that is it forbidden to work on Sundays. This is a divine law, and has always been held in the Church.
Some people have to work on Sunday to feed their families. And, for the restaurant industry, Sunday is a big money-making day. So, if you do not go out to eat on Sunday, all that you are doing is driving up the unemployment rate, causing more foreclosures, etc.
Yes, I agree 100% that you should not do "needless work" on Sundays, but enjoying a "meal out" (which we, as a family, cannot afford) with one's family on Sunday is nothing to feel guilty about.
If they HAVE to work to feed their family, then they can go to work without problem. Have never said anything against that.
If one stays away for one day from work, that will not drive up the unemployment rate, causing more foreclosures, etc, as you claim. Many shops are still today closed on Sundays, and they are not going bankrupt because of it. Neither do big companies/restaurants need to work all days of the week to make profit.
Also, to keep God's commandments is more important then material satisfaction. If people CAN stay away from their work on Sundays, but does not do it, because they want to have more wealth then they needed, they are in fact sinning mortally.
Yes, to help other people commit mortal sins of unnecessary work on Sundays IS something to feel guilty about. Only someone without conscience would disagree after being presented with these facts.
Going out to eat is not "working," at least for those who are doing the eating. And, you agree, apparently, that those who are doing the cooking and serving are not sinning, either, since they are so poor to begin with (they would not be working those jobs if that was not the case) that they, by necessity, can work on Sundays. So, I guess, what's the point of discussing this any further?
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Going out to eat is not "working," at least for those who are doing the eating. And, you agree, apparently, that those who are doing the cooking and serving are not sinning, either, since they are so poor to begin with (they would not be working those jobs if that was not the case) that they, by necessity, can work on Sundays. So, I guess, what's the point of discussing this any further?
That was a ridiculous response. Just because a person work in a restaurant does not imply that he is poor or that he actually have to be working on a Sunday. Stop making presumptions.
A person who fears God and cares for his salvation is obliged to look for another work where he is not forced to work on a Sunday. If he can do it (change work), but refuse, he commits a mortal sin.
Eating out is not a work no. But that does not change the fact that you in fact are helping a person in a possible mortal sin of unnecessary work on Sundays. Since we cannot know who is working on necessity, we cannot presume, that you do, that all people working on a Sunday has necessity.
It's a certain fact, that most people working on Sundays has no necessity for doing so. In the richer countries, wages are high, and many people today live like kings compared to poorer countries. Many people could stay away from work on Sundays, or change their work, but simply refuse to do so. This is a clear mortal sin.
If you have exhausted all the options for receiving an income, for ex: looking for another job or moving to another place, or any other lawful means of receiving an income, (like receiving social welfare checks for the support of the necessities for you or your family, as long as this do not imply that you have to compromise your faith in any way,) then you are not obligated to stay away from work and can safely work on Sundays as long as it is your last option. Below are some examples of acceptable reasons of why you can work on Sundays.
If you cannot continue home-schooling your children for example, this would be an acceptable reason with continuing to work on Sundays, another example would be if you had to move to a bad neighborhood with much drugs, violence or lasciviousness that would influence you or your family in a sinful way, or if by quitting your work, you may be forced to take another work that is sinful or immoral. This would be another reason to continue to work on Sundays until you have found another work where you are not forced to work on Sundays or forced to put your family's spiritual wellbeing in jeopardy.
This goes to say if the work you do is acceptable before God. If you sin against God by the specific work you do, such as selling contraception, porn, bad newspapers with immodest images or stories about sex or other sins etc, then you cannot go to that work even if you starve or don't have the means to support yourself or your family. In such cases you have to put your entire trust in God. You cannot be the cause of your brothers mortal sins without yourself being guilty of mortal sin!
“Therefore I say to you: Be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. The life is more than the meat: and the body is more than the raiment... seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice: and all these things shall be added unto you.” (Lk. 12:22-24, 27-28, 31)
However, in the poorer countries where there is no chance of getting social welfare or income in any other way, it is totally acceptable to work on Sundays as long as the person must do it in order to survive. Many people do not operate under these conditions but work on Sundays in order to have more money than they need to survive. Yes, many people have the means necessary to stay away from work on Sundays, but only go to work to receive more abundance in riches. This is a clear mortal sin!
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Thanks, but I think I'll pass. I do agree that sports should not be played on Sunday, but just watching them is not a sin, much less a mortal sin. What makes you the authority to tell us what is and is not a mortal sin?
You are quiet wrong there. To find enjoyment in people committing mortal sin is likewise a mortal sin. Failure to denounce evil is to approve of evil. Failure in denouncing the mortal sin of gambling (cheerleaders, immodesty, etc.) is to approve of these things. You cannot denounce all evil things, you must go and shop even though they sell bad things. But you do not need to watch sinful sports.
Pope St. Felix III (5th Century): "Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and, indeed, to neglect to confound evil men - when we can do it - is no less a sin than to encourage them."
James 4:17 “To him therefore who knoweth to do good, and doth it not, to him it is sin.”
Pope Leo XIII, Inimica Vis, 1892: “An error which is not resisted is approved; a truth which is not defended is suppressed… He who does not oppose an evident crime is open to the suspicion of secret complicity.”
Pro-sports may seem to have no sin in it, but countless of mortal sins will be exposed when one examines it carefully:
First, almost every kind of pro-sports supports the mortal sin of gambling, and it is just a fact that these teams or players get a large portion of their pay-check from gambling. Pro-sports is in fact one of the biggest, if not the biggest generator of the mortal sin of gambling, which has destroyed countless of families and lead millions of poor souls to despair, ѕυιcιdє and hell. Thus, those who watch these games, watch people who are getting paid for supporting and making the mortal sin of gambling exist. To enjoy the eternal soul killing of other human beings is a clear cut mortal sin.
AND FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO ARGUE THAT GAMBLING IS NOT MORTALLY SINFUL, THINK AGAIN!
Council of Elvira (306), Canon 79: "Christians who play dice for money are to be excluded [excommunication] from receiving communion. If they amend their ways and cease, they may receive communion after one year."
"We read in the Canons of the apostles (Can. xli, xlii): "A bishop, priest or deacon who is given to drunkenness or gambling, or incites others thereto, must either cease or be deposed; a subdeacon, reader or precentor who does these things must either give them up or be excommunicated; the same applies to the laity[/u]."
Now such punishments are not inflicted save for mortal sins. Therefore drunkenness [and gambling] is a mortal sin. (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica > Second Part of the Second Part > Question 150, Article 2. Whether drunkenness is a mortal sin?)
So now when you KNOW gambling is a mortal sin you have no excuse for doing so. Before you could be excused from mortal sin in regards to gambling, but not now you have been presented with Church teaching.
Second, almost every kind of pro-sport is played on Sundays which is a clear mortal sin since it is a work for these players and they get a pay-check from it. Therefore, they are breaking one of God’s Ten Commandments, and there is no excuse for such things. It is a clear mortal sin to enjoy someone committing mortal sin.
Third, as we can see from the Book of the Machabees, the Jєωιѕн people neglected the divine worship in order to attend to different sport festivities at the arena. This is now prophetically fulfilled in many people who call themselves Catholic. For instead of praying the Rosary, reading the word of God and playing with and educating their children in good Christian morals as the Sunday is intended for, they watch these sinful games while placing their children in front of another TV set, neglecting their spiritual well being. Many saints teach that sports in of itself is no sin - which it of course isn’t - but when it becomes too serious and more than a fun game between friends or when one take too much delight in it or makes too big thing of that which has no value, then they unanimously teach that it becomes sinful.
MORE ON GAMBLING
St. Francis de Sales
CHAPTER XXXII. Of Forbidden Amusements.
DICE, cards, and the like games of hazard, are not merely dangerous amusements, like dancing, but they are plainly bad and harmful, and therefore they are forbidden by the civil as by the ecclesiastical law. What harm is there in them? you ask. Such games are unreasonable:—the winner often has neither skill nor industry to boast of, which is contrary to reason. You reply that this is understood by those who play. But though that may prove that you are not wronging anybody, it does not prove that the game is in accordance with reason, as victory ought to be the reward of skill or labour, which it cannot be in mere games of chance. Moreover, though such games may be called a recreation, and are intended as such, they are practically an intense occupation. Is it not an occupation, when a man’s mind is kept on the stretch of close attention, and disturbed by endless anxieties, fears and agitations? Who exercises a more dismal, painful attention than the gambler? No one must speak or laugh,—if you do but cough you will annoy him and his companions. The only pleasure in gambling is to win, and this cannot be a satisfactory pleasure, since it can only be enjoyed at the expense of your antagonist. Once, when he was very ill, S. Louis heard that his brother the Comte d’Anjou and Messire Gautier de Nemours were gambling, and in spite of his weakness the King tottered into the room where they were, and threw dice and money and everything out of the window, in great indignation. And the pure and pious Sara, in her appeal to God, declared that she had never had dealings with gamblers. "I beg, O Lord, that thou loose me from the bond of this reproach, or else take me away from the earth.Thou knowest, O Lord, that I never coveted a husband, and have kept my soul clean from all lust. [17] Never have I joined myself with them that play: neither have I made myself partaker with them that walk in lightness." (Book of Tobias, 3:15-17)
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Going out to eat is not "working," at least for those who are doing the eating. And, you agree, apparently, that those who are doing the cooking and serving are not sinning, either, since they are so poor to begin with (they would not be working those jobs if that was not the case) that they, by necessity, can work on Sundays. So, I guess, what's the point of discussing this any further?
That was a ridiculous response. Just because a person work in a restaurant does not imply that he is poor or that he actually have to be working on a Sunday. Stop making presumptions.
It's a statistical relationship. Middle to Upper class people are not the ones working on Sundays, unless they are doctors, sometimes lawyers. It is the poor, typically, who are forced to work nights and weekends.
Eating out on Sundays is, in a sense, "giving to the poor." You are giving them a honest day's work.
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Going out to eat is not "working," at least for those who are doing the eating. And, you agree, apparently, that those who are doing the cooking and serving are not sinning, either, since they are so poor to begin with (they would not be working those jobs if that was not the case) that they, by necessity, can work on Sundays. So, I guess, what's the point of discussing this any further?
That was a ridiculous response. Just because a person work in a restaurant does not imply that he is poor or that he actually have to be working on a Sunday. Stop making presumptions.
It's a statistical relationship. Middle to Upper class people are not the ones working on Sundays, unless they are doctors, sometimes lawyers. It is the poor, typically, who are forced to work nights and weekends.
Eating out on Sundays is, in a sense, "giving to the poor." You are giving them a honest day's work.
Jehanne. You don't seem to fear God very much. You seem to have no problem at all disregarding His commandments to please men.
People where more poor before the industrial revolution, before the 1900 hundreds. They managed to survive back then without working on Sundays. In fact, in the fully Catholic countries, before Vatican II, no unnecessary work was allowed on Sundays. And in the few instances where people broke the sabbath, protests broke out that forced the violators to comply.
You must realize that irrelevance for God's laws and precepts hasn't always been as common as it is today. Before, people actually cared about religion and about God (which sadly cannot be said today among many people).
Well, what more needs to be said then that we live in the last days? The last days would be the worst of them all. Yet, do every single person who call himself Catholic today, believe himself to be faithful or devout. Many people even think this about themselves even after one have proved to them on many points how they in fact break God's laws and precepts deliberately, and even after one have proved it to them, they still don't care or give it much thought. Irrelevance, mortal sin, love of men and love of pleasure and the world, is what damns almost everyone today.
I believe this revelation explains very well how many people today act before God.
The words of praise of the Mother and the Son to each other in the presence of the bride, and about how Christ is now regarded as shameful, dishonest, and despicable by people, and about the horrifying and eternal damnation of these people.
Book 1 - Chapter 46
The Revelations of St. Bridget
The Queen of Heaven spoke to her Son and said: “Blessed be you my God, who are without beginning and without end. You had the most noble and beautiful body. You were the most brave and virtuous man. You are the most worthy creature.”
The Son answered: “The words proceeding from your mouth are sweet to me and delight my inmost heart like the sweetest drink. You are more sweet to me than any other creature in existence. For just as different faces can be seen in a mirror by a person but none pleases him more than his own, so too, even though I love my saints, I love you with a special love, because I was born from your blessed flesh. You are like myrrh whose fragrance ascended up to the Divinity and led the Divinity to your body. This same fragrance drew your body and soul up to God, where you now are with soul and body. Blessed be you, for the angels rejoice in your beauty and all are saved by your virtue and power when they call on you with a sincere heart. All the demons tremble in your light and do not dare to stay in your splendor, for they always want to be in darkness.
You gave praise to me for a threefold reason, for you said that I had the most noble body; second, that I was the most brave man; and third, you said that I was the most worthy creature. These three things are only contradicted by those who have a body and soul, that is, human beings. They say that I have a shameful body and that I am the most despicable man and the lowliest of creatures. For what is more shameful than to tempt others to sin? For they claim that my body tempts to sin when they say that sin is not as abominable or displeasing to God as much as is said. They say that nothing exists unless God wants it to be so and that nothing is created but by him. ‘Why should we not use the created things to our benefit? Our natural frailty demands it and this is how everyone has lived before us and still do live.’ This is how people now speak about me and my Manhood, in which I, the true God, appeared among men. For I advised them to abstain from sinning and showed what a serious and grave matter it is, and this they say was shameful, as if I had advised them to do something useless and shameful. They say that nothing is honorable but sin and that which pleases their will.
They also say that I am the most shameful man. For what is more shameful than someone who, when he speaks the truth, gets his mouth beaten with stones and gets hit in the face and, on top of that, hears people insulting him, saying: ‘If he were a man, he would revenge himself over such an injustice.’ This is what they do to me. I speak to them through the learned fathers and Holy Scripture, but they say that I lie. They beat my mouth with stones and their fists when they commit adultery, murder, and lying, saying: ‘If he were manly, if he were the almighty God, he would revenge himself for such sins and transgressions.’ But I endure this with patience, and everyday I hear them saying that the torment is neither eternal nor as severe and bitter as it is said, and my words are judged and said to be lies.
Third, they judge me to be the most ugly and worthless creature. For what is more worthless in the house than a dog or a cat that someone would be glad to exchange for a horse, if he could? But mankind holds me to be of less worth than a dog, for he would not wish to take me if it meant that he would lose the dog, and he would reject and deny me before losing the dog’s hide. What is the thing that pleases the mind so little that one does not think of it and desires it more fervently than me? For if they regarded me more worthy than any other created creature, they would love me more than other things. But now they have nothing so small that they do not love it more than me. They grieve over everything but me. They grieve for their own and their friends’ losses. They grieve for an injurious word. They grieve over offending or hurting people more highly placed and powerful than they, but they do not grieve about offending or hurting me, who am the Creator of all things. What man is so despicable that he is not listened to if he begs about something and is not given a gift in return if he has given something? But I am utterly vile and despicable in their eyes, for they do not consider me worthy of any good, even though I have given them all good things.
But you, my most dear Mother, have tasted more of my wisdom than others, and never has anything but the truth ever left your mouth, just as nothing but the truth has ever left my own mouth. I will now justify myself in the sight of all the saints. First, against him, who said that I had a shameful body. I shall prove that I indeed have the most noble body without deformity or sin, and he shall fall into eternal shame and reproach which all will see. To the one who said that my words were a lie and that he did not know if I was God or not, I shall prove that I truly am God, and he will flow down like mud to hell. But the third, who regarded me as useless, I shall judge to eternal damnation so that he will never see my glory and my joy.”
Thereafter he said to his bride: “Stand firm in my service. You have come to a wall, as it were, in which you are enclosed, so that you cannot flee nor dig through its foundations. Endure this small tribulation willingly, and you will experience eternal rest in my arms. You know the will of the Father, you hear the words of the Son, you feel my Spirit, and you have delight and consolation in the conversation with my Mother and my saints. Therefore, stand firm, or else you will come to feel my justice by which you will be forced to do what I am now kindly urging you to do.”
http://www.catholic-saints.net/saints/st-bridget/st-bridget-of-sweden.php
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Jehanne
I also want to apologize for a possibly presumption by me earlier (quoted below). You didn't say (as I said you did) that ALL who work on Sundays does so out of necessity.
You only said that ALL who work with cooking and serving does so, since they otherwise wouldn't work on such works, "since they are so poor to begin with (they would not be working those jobs if that was not the case) that they, by necessity, can work on Sundays".
I just wanted to make that clear.
Since we cannot know who is working on necessity, we cannot presume, that you do, that all people working on a Sunday has necessity.
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Going out to eat is not "working," at least for those who are doing the eating. And, you agree, apparently, that those who are doing the cooking and serving are not sinning, either, since they are so poor to begin with (they would not be working those jobs if that was not the case) that they, by necessity, can work on Sundays. So, I guess, what's the point of discussing this any further?
That was a ridiculous response. Just because a person work in a restaurant does not imply that he is poor or that he actually have to be working on a Sunday. Stop making presumptions.
It's a statistical relationship. Middle to Upper class people are not the ones working on Sundays, unless they are doctors, sometimes lawyers. It is the poor, typically, who are forced to work nights and weekends.
Eating out on Sundays is, in a sense, "giving to the poor." You are giving them a honest day's work.
Jehanne. You don't seem to fear God very much. You seem to have no problem at all disregarding His commandments to please men.
People where more poor before the industrial revolution, before the 1900 hundreds. They managed to survive back then without working on Sundays. In fact, in the fully Catholic countries, before Vatican II, no unnecessary work was allowed on Sundays. And in the few instances where people broke the sabbath, protests broke out that forced the violators to comply.
So, because there were poor people living a century ago, albeit in countries which had Sabbath laws (which I agree with 100%, but let's face it, those are gone now), poor people who are living now ought to be even poorer by not working on Sundays, as long as they are above the "standard of living" that existed among the poor a century ago??
Tell that to DHS. Yes, they can and will come and take your kids if you are not taking care of them, and no, social programs do not provide enough income for you to do that effectively. So, yes, some good Catholic people do have to work on Sundays to provide their children with a decent life. Sometimes this is necessary so that others can watch them, because these people cannot afford to pay for childcare during the week, so for them, weekend work may be the only option.
It is simply not possible to live in the abject poverty that you are speaking of, especially with children. And, welfare as we once knew it, is gone, so people have to make choices if only to keep their kids and not have them end-up in foster care with Protestant heretics or Mormon infidels.
Now, what would you say to that?!
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So, because there were poor people living a century ago, albeit in countries which had Sabbath laws (which I agree with 100%, but let's face it, those are gone now), poor people who are living now ought to be even poorer by not working on Sundays, as long as they are above the "standard of living" that existed among the poor a century ago??
Tell that to DHS. Yes, they can and will come and take your kids if you are not taking care of them, and no, social programs do not provide enough income for you to do that effectively. So, yes, some good Catholic people do have to work on Sundays to provide their children with a decent life. Sometimes this is necessary so that others can watch them, because these people cannot afford to pay for childcare during the week, so for them, weekend work may be the only option.
It is simply not possible to live in the abject poverty that you are speaking of, especially with children. And, welfare as we once knew it, is gone, so people have to make choices if only to keep their kids and not have them end-up in foster care with Protestant heretics or Mormon infidels.
Now, what would you say to that?!
As I have said all along. If people MUST work they can do it.
The problem with your replies is that you seem to excuse "all" people?, who work on Sundays, and that they have a necessity for doing so (at least all who work with cooking and serving, according to you?)
Now, since I don't want to presume again, I want to ask you. Does every person that work on Sundays, do so out of absolute necessity according to you?
And do you agree with, that not ALL people who work on Sundays does so out of absolute necessity, and that these people thus could stay home or change their schedule/work to avoid performing unnecessary work on Sundays?
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Where you would say "absolute necessity," I would say "necessity." What could be "necessary" today could become "absolutely necessary" tomorrow. In today's world and economy, one has an absolute necessity of being proactive.
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Where you would say "absolute necessity," I would say "necessity." What could be "necessary" today could become "absolutely necessary" tomorrow. In today's world and economy, one has an absolute necessity of being proactive.
You did not answer the questions. But I do understand what you are saying.
But still, one cannot break the Sabbath because of something which one thinks only could happen (unless there are grave reasons to conclude it will turn out so).
Unless there are grave reasons, there is definitely sin. Most people, who work on Sundays, probably do not fall in this category and are therefore sinning, since they could change their schedule, or change their work, but refuses to do so.
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Hietanen, I still dis-agree with you. First of all, it's not your place to judge whether or not a person is in mortal sin. How do you know sports athletes are in mortal sin? What about college football players who don't play on Sunday, are they in mortal sin just for playing? You also do not know that sports athletes always gamble. I would think it would be just the opposite. Why gamble when you already have millions of dollars? Furthermore, it is not a mortal sin to watch sports either because we don't know for certain if these people are in mortal sin. If I turn it to baseball on a week night I'm sinning just for watching people play? You're obviously the same person who made that post about professional sports a while back.
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Hietanen, I still dis-agree with you. First of all, it's not your place to judge whether or not a person is in mortal sin. How do you know sports athletes are in mortal sin?
Since the mortal sin of gambling is condemned, and since it is likewise condemned to work unnecessarily on Sundays, we are to assume, since they get a paycheck for both playing sports on Sundays and for supporting the mortal sin of gambling, that they approve of the mortal sin of gambling and of breaking the Sabbath. For a person to approve of mortal sins, is likewise mortally sinful. They also approve of cheerleaders, bad commercials, vanities, waste of many, and many other either mortal and venial sins. There are no excuse for them what so ever!
What about college football players who don't play on Sunday, are they in mortal sin just for playing?
The only thing that constitutes mortal sin for college sports, is the cheerleaders. Since these players fail to denounce this evil filth, and since they by their continual deed of playing and accepting this to take place without renouncing their sports career, they become guilty of mortal sin.
Pope St. Felix III (5th Century): "Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and, indeed, to neglect to confound evil men - when we can do it - is no less a sin than to encourage them."
Other things which could be mortal, but might not be, is that they make to much of a thing of that which is nothing, and of no worth, they spend so much time and effort on nothing, and that has no worth, and they waste a lot of money on nothing.
You also do not know that sports athletes always gamble. I would think it would be just the opposite. Why gamble when you already have millions of dollars?
I never said they themselves gamble, you didn't read what I wrote. I said that these players condone and make exist the mortal sin of gambling. They are aware of this, yet continue with supporting it by taking part of it. It is a clear cut mortal sin to continue doing or helping what constitutes mortal sin for other people, i.e. gambling, which leads countless of souls into ѕυιcιdє, despair, economic hardship and hell. Millions of people in hell screams just vengeance on the people who make this evil filth of gambling to exist.
Furthermore, it is not a mortal sin to watch sports either because we don't know for certain if these people are in mortal sin. If I turn it to baseball on a week night I'm sinning just for watching people play? You're obviously the same person who made that post about professional sports a while back.
It is a clear cut mortal sin to condone and give approval of mortal sin. You cannot sit and watch something that you know are against God's law, for to do so is a clear cut mortal sin. To enjoy other people committing mortal sin IS a mortal sin.
You know these players break the sabbath, and that they condone gambling and that they are helping this filth to even exist and that these players thus are helping other people into committing the mortal sin of gambling which had lead countless of souls into ѕυιcιdє, despair, economic hardship and eternal hell.
Again must be mention of the the devilish cheerleaders, which are an outrage and an abomination. To approve of such conducts, and in failure to denounce such, makes one likewise guilty of mortal sin. Since these players approve of cheerleaders, they are likewise guilty of mortal sin. And if you watch pro-sports, when you know they will show these cheerleaders (even if you yourself do not watch them), you are likewise guilty of mortal sin, because if you feared God, you would not watch a program which you knew condoned mortal sin and offense against God. (Now, you cannot renounce all evil things, you have to go and shop, and buy food, even though they sell bad things; but you do not ever have to watch pro-sports for any reason whatsoever, and neither is it of any importance spiritually or bodily or necessary for your survival.)
And then we have the evil, bad, disgusting commercials. Likewise, failure in denouncing this evil filth, and to approve of it by either the continual deed of watching or by the players continual deed of playing, is likewise a mortal sin. If these players feared God, they would protests and refuse to play until the tv stations complied and refused to air such filth.
Pope St. Felix III (5th Century): "Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and, indeed, to neglect to confound evil men - when we can do it - is no less a sin than to encourage them."
James 4:17 “To him therefore who knoweth to do good, and doth it not, to him it is sin.”
Pope Leo XIII, Inimica Vis, 1892: “An error which is not resisted is approved; a truth which is not defended is suppressed… He who does not oppose an evident crime is open to the suspicion of secret complicity.”
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Gambling is always a mortal sin? Really?
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Gambling is always a mortal sin? Really?
Gambling is a mortal sin, but not necessarily mortal for the person who is in ignorance in regards on this subject (so long as his gambling was moderate, that is. Excess in gambling always constitute mortal sin).
Council of Elvira (306), Canon 79: "Christians who play dice for money are to be excluded from receiving communion [excommunication]. If they amend their ways and cease, they may receive communion after one year."
St. Thomas Aquinas: "We read in the Canons of the apostles (Can. xli, xlii): 'A bishop, priest or deacon who is given to drunkenness or gambling, or incites others thereto, must either cease or be deposed; a subdeacon, reader or precentor who does these things must either give them up or be excommunicated; the same applies to the laity.'
Now such punishments are not inflicted save for mortal sins. Therefore drunkenness [and gambling] is a mortal sin." (Summa Theologica, II:II, Q, 150, A, 2. Whether drunkenness is a mortal sin?)
MORE ON GAMBLING
St. Francis de Sales
CHAPTER XXXII. Of Forbidden Amusements.
DICE, cards, and the like games of hazard, are not merely dangerous amusements, like dancing, but they are plainly bad and harmful, and therefore they are forbidden by the civil as by the ecclesiastical law. What harm is there in them? you ask. Such games are unreasonable:—the winner often has neither skill nor industry to boast of, which is contrary to reason. You reply that this is understood by those who play. But though that may prove that you are not wronging anybody, it does not prove that the game is in accordance with reason, as victory ought to be the reward of skill or labour, which it cannot be in mere games of chance. Moreover, though such games may be called a recreation, and are intended as such, they are practically an intense occupation. Is it not an occupation, when a man’s mind is kept on the stretch of close attention, and disturbed by endless anxieties, fears and agitations? Who exercises a more dismal, painful attention than the gambler? No one must speak or laugh,—if you do but cough you will annoy him and his companions. The only pleasure in gambling is to win, and this cannot be a satisfactory pleasure, since it can only be enjoyed at the expense of your antagonist. Once, when he was very ill, S. Louis heard that his brother the Comte d’Anjou and Messire Gautier de Nemours were gambling, and in spite of his weakness the King tottered into the room where they were, and threw dice and money and everything out of the window, in great indignation. And the pure and pious Sara, in her appeal to God, declared that she had never had dealings with gamblers. "I beg, O Lord, that thou loose me from the bond of this reproach, or else take me away from the earth. Thou knowest, O Lord, that I never coveted a husband, and have kept my soul clean from all lust. [17] Never have I joined myself with them that play: neither have I made myself partaker with them that walk in lightness." (Book of Tobias, 3:15-17)
So, now when you KNOW gambling is disapproved by the Church and Catholic civil law, you have no excuse for doing so. Before you could be excused from mortal sin in regards to (moderate) gambling, but not now when you have been presented with Church teaching.
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I was invited to go to a restaurant today after Mass at CMRI. I don't go out to eat on Sunday because it keeps people working for unnecessary reasons ( I'll get gas, since gas stations need to be open on Sunday for many legitimate reasons ).
One friend of mine, who is eighty, told me that in the 40's and 50's, towns were absolutely dead on Sunday. That was all I needed to hear, since then I haven't gone out to eat on that day.
Result: I was told I have scruples, that all the priests go to restaurants on Sundays. It is true that I seem to be the only one there who has this rule.
Do you go to restaurants on Sundays? Discuss.
I was told it was ok for Catholics to work at places of recreation on Sunday because it allows other Catholics to recreate. Restaurants and places of leisure like parks would be ok. So go and order lunch and socialize.
The rule was meant so that you're not out doing manual labor or becoming a workaholic and working Sundays to make even more profit or treating the day like any other work day.
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I was invited to go to a restaurant today after Mass at CMRI. I don't go out to eat on Sunday because it keeps people working for unnecessary reasons ( I'll get gas, since gas stations need to be open on Sunday for many legitimate reasons ).
One friend of mine, who is eighty, told me that in the 40's and 50's, towns were absolutely dead on Sunday. That was all I needed to hear, since then I haven't gone out to eat on that day.
Result: I was told I have scruples, that all the priests go to restaurants on Sundays. It is true that I seem to be the only one there who has this rule.
Do you go to restaurants on Sundays? Discuss.
I was told it was ok for Catholics to work at places of recreation on Sunday because it allows other Catholics to recreate. Restaurants and places of leisure like parks would be ok. So go and order lunch and socialize.
The rule was meant so that you're not out doing manual labor or becoming a workaholic and working Sundays to make even more profit or treating the day like any other work day.
No, the Sundays should be used for people to search for God, resting from the world, and advancing in virtue. It should not be used to please other men!
LOVE FOR GOD FIRST; SECOND FOR NEIGHBOR!
To deliberately work on Sundays without grave necessity is a mortal sin. Divine Law and Church Law condemns ALL unnecessary work on Sundays. So how do you people make up your own laws that contradicts the divine law that has always been held by all people (except for the last generation at the end of the world)?
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Let me address a few things here, Hietanen.
1.- I agree that commericals on television are getting worse these days, but since you're going to play the "anything that has any kind of sin is a mortal sin to own or do" game, let's focus the spotlight on something else, the internet. In a way, the internet is worse than tv. On tv, you don't have full controll of everything that happens, you could be watching something harmless like the weather and then a bad commercial could come up suddenly. But with the computer, you're in full controll of what comes up, 99% of the time. Plus, nearly every kind of sin imaginable is on the internet. Stealing, blasphemy, porn, adultery, etc. So why are you so quick to condemn sports, tv, and eating at restaurants on Sunday but don't say a thing about the internet? I'm not saying we shouldn't have a computer, but I'm surprised you don't condemn something that can be even worse than television.
2.- You do not know that sports athletes "approve" bad cheerleaders, bad commercials, gambling, etc. Maybe there are sports athletes who dislike these things and have spoken up but their team does not care about the trashy cheerleaders or whatever. Yes I agree that sports should not be played on Sunday, but it is not a mortal sin to watch sports. And what about the sports players who donate most of their money to Christian charities?
3.- You don't have any authority to tell people on these forums that you don't even know personally that they are in mortal sin just for eating out on Sunday or watching sports. And as I said, there are some things (such as the internet) we own that we practically have to own that can lead to sin. Heck, owning cars can lead to sin, but we need them to drive, don't we?
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I was invited to go to a restaurant today after Mass at CMRI. I don't go out to eat on Sunday because it keeps people working for unnecessary reasons ( I'll get gas, since gas stations need to be open on Sunday for many legitimate reasons ).
One friend of mine, who is eighty, told me that in the 40's and 50's, towns were absolutely dead on Sunday. That was all I needed to hear, since then I haven't gone out to eat on that day.
Result: I was told I have scruples, that all the priests go to restaurants on Sundays. It is true that I seem to be the only one there who has this rule.
Do you go to restaurants on Sundays? Discuss.
I was told it was ok for Catholics to work at places of recreation on Sunday because it allows other Catholics to recreate. Restaurants and places of leisure like parks would be ok. So go and order lunch and socialize.
The rule was meant so that you're not out doing manual labor or becoming a workaholic and working Sundays to make even more profit or treating the day like any other work day.
Yes, and if anyone feels guilty about eating out on Sunday, just leave some good Catholic booklets around to help spread the Faith. I am sure the Apostles worked on Sunday to bring people to the Faith.
I like to leave material in waiting rooms, such as Hospitals, Doctor offices, since that is where people will pick up such things and read them. You never know when you plant little seeds like that. Even a reminder of the 10 Commandments is needed in todays world.
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Let me address a few things here, Hietanen.
1.- I agree that commericals on television are getting worse these days, but since you're going to play the "anything that has any kind of sin is a mortal sin...
I didn't say "anything" or "everything" that has any kind of sin in it is always a mortal sin. There are distinctions. I clearly said that people could go and shop although they sell bad things at that shop, since people need to feed themselves and have clothes, etc..
So there is a difference on necessity and on totally non-necessity. No one need to watch pro-sports for any reason whatsoever, just as no one need to be watching gamblers while they are gambling...
but since you're going to play the "anything that has any kind of sin is a mortal sin to own or do" game, let's focus the spotlight on something else, the internet. In a way, the internet is worse than tv.
The internet is not sinful at all depending on what reason you are using it. If you are using it for bad and sinful things, then it is sinful. If you are using the internet merely for the salvation of souls and lawful recreation, it is lawful and no sin in it.
Since almost every site today has commercials, it is very hard to escape temptations. Luckily, on the internet, there are options which will limit or remove almost 100% of all commercials for ever.
However, I must correct one thing I said. It does not at all constitute mortal sin to watch an acceptable program although you know there comes commercials in between (so long as you do not deliberately watch the commercials.)
One could watch the news, for example, even though they may or may not send commercials in between. Similarly, one could watch a good Christian movie on a tv network, even though they send bad commercials in between (so long as you do not watch the commercials).
However, this does not excuse pro-sports or make it lawful to watch pro-sports, since there are other aspects which make it totally unacceptable to watch (Sabbath breaking, gambling, cheerleaders, etc).
On tv, you don't have full controll of everything that happens, you could be watching something harmless like the weather and then a bad commercial could come up suddenly.
If you watch some acceptable program on the tv and a commercial happened to come up, and you did not deliberately seek the bad commercial, you committed no sin.
But with the computer, you're in full controll of what comes up, 99% of the time. Plus, nearly every kind of sin imaginable is on the internet. Stealing, blasphemy, porn, adultery, etc.
If a person deliberately seeks out these mortal sins you described: "Stealing, blasphemy, porn, adultery, etc", on the internet, then it would be mortally sinful. The same must be applied on all worldly and ungodly media that contains the above mentioned or similar things in them. A person cannot watch an ungodly or worldly sinful film without being guilty of mortal sin.
A Person can have good reasons for watching the news, etc, therefore, is he not sinning even though he may perchance see a bad scene or badly dressed woman when watching the news as long as he did not intend for them to happen and so long he was not seeking it deliberately and so long he did not agree with it and so long he did not fix his eyes on her deliberately for a longer time (a person need to look down when seeing bad scenes or unchaste woman on the street, otherwise a sin occurred, whether it be mortal or venial or even non-sinful, depends entirely on the thoughts you had while seeing the man/woman). But no person however, has a good reason for watching a bad ungodly worldly film with mortal sins in them. Thats the difference between the two, and that is what makes the first lawful (although not recommended), and the latter not.
News in itself isn’t evil or contrary to God or morals, but most newspapers today have totally unacceptable pictures which make them extremely unsuitable to read. To read newspapers which you know will contain many unchaste, immodest and sɛҳuąƖ pictures and useless stories about sex, etc., is complete idiocy and will lead to sins of the flesh if you cannot guard yourself. We advice you to never watch news on television or the like since it is so filled with sins that it is almost impossible to watch without seeing things that will injure your virtue like immodesty, make-up, blasphemy, gloating, lust, adultery etc... continuing in infinity. However, to watch news daily is hardly necessary and St. Alphonsus clearly rebukes people for this in his most excellent work, The True Spouse of Christ:
“St. Dorotheus says: "Beware of too much speaking, for it banishes from the soul holy thoughts and recollection with God." Speaking of religious that cannot abstain from inquiring after worldly news, St. Joseph Calasanctius said: "The curious religious shows that he has forgotten himself." It is certain that he who speaks too much with men converses but little with God, for the Lord says: I will lead her into the wilderness, and I will speak to her heart. If, then, the soul wishes that God speak to its heart, it must seek after solitude; but this solitude will never be found by religious who do not love silence." If," said the Venerable Margaret of the Cross, "we remain silent, we shall find solitude." And how will the Lord ever condescend to speak to the religious, who, by seeking after the conversation of creatures, shows that the conversation of God is not sufficient to make her happy? Hence, for a nun that delights in receiving visits and letters, in reading the newspapers, and in speaking frequently of the things of the world, it is impossible to be a good religious. Every time that she unnecessarily holds intercourse with seculars, she will suffer a diminution of fervor.”
It is the intention that makes people committing mortal or venial sins while watching, listening or reading something. If a person has as pleasure to watch bad sinful commercials, films, magazines or music/songs, etc. it is a mortal sin, since that person had as intention to enjoy watching/reading/listening to mortal sin and what constitutes mortal sin and ungodliness. There is no excuse for such behavior. The intent, when watching such things, is not godly motives. However, when watching a Christian film, then our intention is spiritual, therefore, even if there happen to be a bad scene there, we can lawfully watch that film (as long as we do not watch that scene or approve of it in our heart). A film that depicts heretical views however (such as Jesus Christ Superstar), can not be watched, unless for the purpose of refuting it.
So why are you so quick to condemn sports, tv, and eating at restaurants on Sunday but don't say a thing about the internet? I'm not saying we shouldn't have a computer, but I'm surprised you don't condemn something that can be even worse than television.
Why I condemn mortal sins and the breaking of God's commandments, you ask? Do I have to answer, that really?
James 4:17 “To him therefore who knoweth to do good, and doth it not, to him it is sin.”
But I would like to ask you, why do you defend mortal sins such as unnecessary, unlawful Sabbath breaking?
And why do you defend pro-sports, even after all the evidence proving it to be morally wrong and sinful?
2.- You do not know that sports athletes "approve" bad cheerleaders, bad commercials, gambling, etc. Maybe there are sports athletes who dislike these things and have spoken up but their team does not care about the trashy cheerleaders or whatever.
An athlete that continues to play in a sports team that he knows allows the mortal sin of cheerleaders, and the mortal sin of gambling, the mortal sin of Sabbath breaking, and other mortal or venial sins, do in fact by his continual deed of playing there, approve of them all. Most pro-sport athletes may also have to wear bad commercials on their outfits which condones either the mortal sin of gambling or some other possible sin. That is totally unacceptable to do. They would also agree on all the commercials that are placed on the arena where they play, whether it be for gambling, tobacco or alcohol. If there are no bad commercials, then it is no sin, if it is bad commercials, there is sin.
As a person, the athlete who sees these things taking place before his face (Sabbath breaking, cheerleaders, gambling, bad commercials, etc.), has an obligation to renounce these things by either quitting the team or by protesting and refusing to play and be part of it, until the team either complies or fires him. To do otherwise is to sin against God, to make scandal to our neighbor and to give a bad example. Only a total liar could disagree with these facts.
Pope Leo XIII, Inimica Vis, 1892: "“An error which is not resisted is approved; a truth which is not defended is suppressed… He who does not oppose an evident crime is open to the suspicion of secret complicity.” ."
Yes I agree that sports should not be played on Sunday, but it is not a mortal sin to watch sports.
It is a mortal sin to enjoy other people committing mortal sin. You know these players break the Sabbath, and you have as enjoyment watching these players breaking the Sabbath and thus committing mortal sin. You are also approving of the mortal sin of gambling by taking part in watching their sports plays, which is founded on gambling. Gambling is also continuously commercialized on the tv during the games by the announcements of the Sports betting results.
To watch something which only constitutes mortal sins, excess spending (billions upon billions of dollars on nothing), worldly vanities, etc. is a mortal sin.
Pro-sports would likewise be a mortal sin to watch only because of the cheerleaders. If you know that the sports-team you enjoy approve of these naked women from hell that tempts people into mortal sins of lust, and you watch these sports, you are watching an event that has mortal sin present at the arena and the field, and that these women are tempting the whole arena (and all the viewers world wide watching them) into lusts of the flesh, masturbation, porn, fornication, adultery, and who knows what? So to be aware of this, and yet approve of it by the continual deed of watching, is sick to say the least, and is a mortal sin.
Likewise could a person never attend a pro-sports arena that has the above mentioned mortal sins taking place in them, for then would one have a front row in an activity which constitutes an offense to God, mortal sin and scandal to his neighbor.
And what about the sports players who donate most of their money to Christian charities?
There will be no reward for a person who donates money unjustly acquired. They get their paycheck from the mortal sin of gambling, they are thus helping in defrauding people their money. If they somehow did not understand where they get their paycheck from, and if their intent is good, they will have a reward for their good deeds (either here or in the next), all good deeds will be rewarded, as all bad deeds will have its just punishment.
Everything with pro-sports today are built around gambling and to keep it exist. Without pro-sports, almost all professional gambling would cease to exist. So, even if they had no income at all from gambling, it would still be morally wrong to have as work what help to exist the mortal sin of gambling.
3.- You don't have any authority to tell people on these forums that you don't even know personally that they are in mortal sin just for eating out on Sunday... And as I said, there are some things (such as the internet) we own that we practically have to own that can lead to sin. Heck, owning cars can lead to sin, but we need them to drive, don't we?
When a person are aware of these facts, they without doubt commit mortal sin if they continue doing what they now know are wrong and condemned by the Church!
However, if a person somehow was unaware of the Sabbath, or that it was wrong (to work) or to help other people committing unnecessary work on a Sunday, for example, eating out on a Sunday (which then would constitute a work for all these people who work on that restaurant), would not necessarily commit mortal sin. Also all people who work on Sundays but are unaware of the Sabbath, may not commit mortal sin.
I say "may" not have committed mortal sin, for most "Catholics" and people who call themselves "Christian" know about the Sabbath, yet knowingly break it without a good cause. To do so, normally, would constitute mortal sin. But since in this great apostasy, there could be legitimate confusion, since some say so, and others so, it may not be a mortal sin for people who did not fully understand what they where doing or that it actually was wrong. God knows peoples intent, and why a person did something, and for what cause, and they will be judged accordingly.
But now, however, when being aware of these fact, does every person who have read this who either work unnecessarily on Sundays or who deliberately help others committing unnecessary work on Sunday, without a doubt, commit a mortal sin!
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If it's sinful to eat out on Sundays, then if you really wanted to take it to the Nth degree, the following ridiculous situations would come up:
You're committing mortal sin for using electricity on Sunday. After all, someone at the power company has to be working in order to keep the lights on.
You're committing mortal sin for watching NFL games on Sunday. Because you're "enabling" the players, coaches, referees, hotdog vendors, etc. to work on Sundays.
These kind of scrupulous things are what often put me at odds with other Traditionalists.
Did the pre-Vatican2 church ever condemn the NFL for playing games on Sundays?
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Hietanen,
Well, I'll be darned. The stuff you posted about gambling was news to me. I will have to think seriously about that. It is hard to argue with SS. Thomas Aquinas and Francis de Sales.
What about all those parish bingo nights? I am not being flippant here. That is a serious question.
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If it's sinful to eat out on Sundays, then if you really wanted to take it to the Nth degree, the following ridiculous situations would come up:
You're committing mortal sin for using electricity on Sunday. After all, someone at the power company has to be working in order to keep the lights on.
No, all work that has a necessity for keeping society to function is acceptable and reasonable and not against the Sabbath. You can work on a hospital on A sunday, you can have as work to feed the hungry and have as work and tend the sick, etc. I have never said anything against that. Please read what I'm actually saying.
It would also be acceptable to work on Sunday out of necessity. If a person has to do it in order to survive, and to keep his household feed, etc.
But without necessity (which most people don't fall under, mortal sin is definitevly committed). That has always been held by the Church.
You're committing mortal sin for watching NFL games on Sunday. Because you're "enabling" the players, coaches, referees, hotdog vendors, etc. to work on Sundays.
EXACTLY. Please, read my above posts. But your not only committing mortal sin for watching these games on Sundays, but also committing mortal sin for enjoying people committing mortal sin, such as Sabbath breaking, acceptance of cheerleaders and for making the mortal sin of gambling to exist. To enjoy what constitute intrinsically evil things is a mortal sin.
Did the pre-Vatican2 church ever condemn the NFL for playing games on Sundays?
Before Vatican II, in the folly Catholic countries/towns, no one worked on Sundays. All towns, restaurants, etc, was closed. You should know this already from reading the beginning of this thread.
The changes occurred after Vatican II, not before. Also, before in the world, people did not get payed from playing sports. People did not have as work to play sports as people have today. Before, these sports was truly a recreation, recreation is lawful, even if played on Sunday, as long as it does not constitutes an actual work for them.
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If it's sinful to eat out on Sundays, then if you really wanted to take it to the Nth degree, the following ridiculous situations would come up:
You're committing mortal sin for using electricity on Sunday. After all, someone at the power company has to be working in order to keep the lights on.
No, all work that has a necessity for keeping society to function is acceptable and reasonable and not against the Sabbath. You can work on a hospital on A sunday, you can have as work to feed the hungry and have as work and tend the sick, etc. I have never said anything against that. Please read what I'm actually saying.
It would also be acceptable to work on Sunday out of necessity. If a person has to do it in order to survive, and to keep his household feed, etc.
But without necessity (which most people don't fall under, mortal sin is definitevly committed). That has always been held by the Church.
You're committing mortal sin for watching NFL games on Sunday. Because you're "enabling" the players, coaches, referees, hotdog vendors, etc. to work on Sundays.
EXACTLY. Please, read my above posts. But your not only committing mortal sin for watching these games on Sundays, but also committing mortal sin for enjoying people committing mortal sin, such as Sabbath breaking, acceptance of cheerleaders and for making the mortal sin of gambling to exist. To enjoy what constitute intrinsically evil things is a mortal sin.
Did the pre-Vatican2 church ever condemn the NFL for playing games on Sundays?
Before Vatican II, in the folly Catholic countries/towns, no one worked on Sundays. All towns, restaurants, etc, was closed. You should know this already from reading the beginning of this thread.
The changes occurred after Vatican II, not before. Also, before in the world, people did not get payed from playing sports. People did not have as work to play sports as people have today. Before, these sports was truly a recreation, recreation is lawful, even if played on Sunday, as long as it does not constitutes an actual work for them.
Whatever bro. I'm willing to take my chances that watching the NFL leads to eternal damnation. Although some people are "working," it's ultimately recreation for the vast majority of people involved. I would agree that skipping Mass to watch or participate in a sporting event is a mortal sin, but you're dead wrong if you believe it's a sin to watch a game after you get back from Mass.
In case you didn't know, the origin of the the prohibition of servile work on Sundays/Days of Obligation was back in the medieval times when the lords used to work the peasants on Sundays and they missed Mass. It wasn't because there's anything intrinsically evil about doing any work on Sunday if one still attended Mass.
Show me a docuмent from an American bishop before the Council that condemned professional sports playing on Sundays, and I might start taking your side seriously.
BTW am I in mortal sin if I don't pray rosaries all day on Sunday after I get back from Mass?
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Hietanen,
Well, I'll be darned. The stuff you posted about gambling was news to me. I will have to think seriously about that. It is hard to argue with SS. Thomas Aquinas and Francis de Sales.
What about all those parish bingo nights? I am not being flippant here. That is a serious question.
If the people participating in the "parish" bingo night was unaware of what the Church taught, there was no sin (since the betting is in small amounts). However, since there are prizes (I presume), that one could win on those nights as well, it could also constitute a work for these people if they play on Sundays since they are working on achieving an income in some way. So, that would be another reason why a person could not participate in such activities after being aware of this information.
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Whatever bro. I'm willing to take my chances that watching the NFL leads to eternal damnation. Although some people are "working," it's ultimately recreation for the vast majority of people involved.
It is a mortal sin to enjoy other people committing mortal sin. You know these players break the Sabbath, and you have as enjoyment watching these players breaking the Sabbath and thus committing mortal sin. You are also approving of the mortal sin of gambling by taking part in watching their sports plays, which is founded on gambling. Gambling is also continuously commercialized on the tv during the games by the announcements of the Sports betting results.
To watch something which only constitutes mortal sins, excess spending (billions upon billions of dollars on nothing), worldly vanities, etc. is a mortal sin.
Pro-sports would likewise be a mortal sin to watch only because of the cheerleaders. If you know that the sports-team you enjoy approve of these naked women from hell that tempts people into mortal sins of lust, and you watch these sports, you are watching an event that has mortal sin present at the arena and the field, and that these women are tempting the whole arena (and all the viewers world wide watching them) into lusts of the flesh, masturbation, porn, fornication, adultery, and who knows what? So to be aware of this, and yet approve of it by the continual deed of watching, is sick to say the least, and is a mortal sin.
Likewise could a person never attend a pro-sports arena that has the above mentioned mortal sins taking place in them, for then would one have a front row in an activity which constitutes an offense to God, mortal sin and scandal to his neighbor.
In case you didn't know, the origin of the the prohibition of servile work on Sundays/Days of Obligation was back in the medieval times when the lords used to work the peasants on Sundays and they missed Mass. It wasn't because there's anything intrinsically evil about doing any work on Sunday if one still attended Mass.
No, the prohibition from servile work dates back to the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law, and was in Law from the beginning of the New Testament, although now changed from Saturday to Sunday.
All works are forbidden on Sundays, even if you go to mass before doing the work. That has always been held as law in the Catholic Church. I don't know why you make up your own laws like this, you are either flat out lying here or have not a clue what you are talking about.
Show me a docuмent from an American bishop before the Council that condemned professional sports playing on Sundays, and I might start taking your side seriously.
First it must be said that pro-sports didn't really become what it is today until after the great apostasy and the rise of modern world. Go back 100 years, and there was virtually no pro-sports at all, no world cups, etc. It was a recreation for must people, and people didn't have it as work. Neither was many sports in Catholic countries even played on Sundays, but on other days.
The situations have changed, the world has changed; we're living in the last days, and that without a Pope and a non Heretical authoritative Hierarchy that can solve or give a definitive answer to many of these hard situations/questions.
You will not find docuмents on everything, especially concerning all the new difficult situations that have arisen with the modern technological world. You will not find a docuмent condemning video games, for example, since the great apostasy happened way before the many new sins that have arisen. Therefore, evil violent video games has to be condemned (not by a definitive condemnation against it, since no such exists) but around other aspects, such as pointing out it's dangers and how it otherwise violates divine and moral law. Take the following as a clear example of this:
Almost every kind of game that exists in our sad time has numerous mortally sinful things in them which make them impossible to play without going to hell. The younger generation especially, but also older people, is so perverted and drugged by these new games that they seem to live for nothing else!
Firstly, there are the countless games who have a person going around killing or hurting other humans or creatures for fun; for example, Counter-Strike, Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Starcraft, Modern Warfare, Gears of Wars, Tekken, etc. To play such a game is not only sick but abominable. Think about it: to play a game for fun or pleasure which is constituted of the murder or hurt of another being!
God solemnly declares that he will judge our every thought, how much more then will he judge our deeds? When we in our mind take delight and enjoy killing or hurting other beings, God takes this as an act in the very same way as he judges us as murderers if we hate our brother, or, as an adulterer if we look at a woman with lust in our heart. What then will God judge you to be when you in your heart love abominable things in evil video games?
If you want to read more, feel free to do so;
http://www.catholic-saints.net/spiritual/#Video-games
Today, worldwide, pagan government rules the countries and have implemented non-catholic constitutions that violates both Catholic Civil and Ecclesiastical law, therefore, must we use our reason on what we can understand, and judge those things accordingly. But if I find what you are asking for, I will gladly use it to prove my point.
What we DO know and what we do UNDERSTAND, is that all (unnecessary) works is forbidden on Sundays. Therefore, are these players committing mortal sin of Sabbath breaking, and it is clearly morally wrong to have as enjoyment watching people committing mortal sin. This is what we have to go on, and this is reasonable and logical, and is also in line with Catholic teaching who condemns to approve of evil and wrong, and you have no excuse for going against this reason since you cannot prove your cause (that it would be right to watch or enjoy people committing mortal sin of Sabbath breaking) from anything.
Besides, there are other mortal sins that makes it unacceptable to watch or enjoy pro-sports, as have already been dealt with above (cheerleaders, gambling, etc.).
BTW am I in mortal sin if I don't pray rosaries all day on Sunday after I get back from Mass?
No, you are not in mortal sin for NOT praying the rosary ALL DAY LONG.
However, you could be in mortal sin for neglecting to pray the rosary or some other prayers at all sometime during the Sunday without a good cause.
Man should not do the things on a Sunday as he would do on the other days. The Sunday is intended for God to be kept in holiness. Thus, if the only difference for you on Sundays is that you keep away from servile work, and do not give any of your time to God, what profit is there for you?
God commanded at least one day off for man so that man could rest from the world and use it for his spiritual well being, in praying, reading and doing other good works for the soul. You should thus spend the Sunday in abstaining from your own will, such as watching the tv, playing games, listening to music or the radio, etc, and instead strive to know God in solitude, prayer and meditation.
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No, the prohibition from servile work dates back to the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law, and was in Law from the beginning of the New Testament, although now changed from Saturday to Sunday.
All works are forbidden on Sundays, even if you go to mass before doing the work. That has always been held as law in the Catholic Church. I don't know why you make up your own laws like this, you are either flat out lying here or have not a clue what you are talking about.
I know exactly what the hell I'm taking about. Yes, old Mosaic law placed all kinds of strict limitations on work on the Sabbath. The Pharisees used that as ammo to go after Jesus. The new law supersedes Mosaic law or else we still can't eat pork.
I'm obviously not denying that the Christian Sabbath still has a special character to it that sets it apart from other days of the week. But you're approaching this with a totally pharisaic spirit.
Are you a closet Orthodox Jew?
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No, the prohibition from servile work dates back to the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law, and was in Law from the beginning of the New Testament, although now changed from Saturday to Sunday.
All works are forbidden on Sundays, even if you go to mass before doing the work. That has always been held as law in the Catholic Church. I don't know why you make up your own laws like this, you are either flat out lying here or have not a clue what you are talking about.
I know exactly what the hell I'm taking about. Yes, old Mosaic law placed all kinds of strict limitations on work on the Sabbath. The Pharisees used that as ammo to go after Jesus. The new law supersedes Mosaic law or else we still can't eat pork.
I'm obviously not denying that the Christian Sabbath still has a special character to it that sets it apart from other days of the week. But you're approaching this with a totally pharisaic spirit.
Are you a closet Orthodox Jew?
The Church has never said anything against eating pork. The Church, however, has forbidden all work on Sundays. Get this fact through your obstinate head now. This IS the Church's teaching, NOT my own. So how you can imply that I have a "pharisaic spirit" for upholding the law of God and the laws of his Church? You are just dishonest, and of bad will.
It wasn't because there's anything intrinsically evil about doing any work on Sunday if one still attended Mass.
It is an intrinsically evil act to disobey God, so it is definitely a mortal sin to work on Sundays knowingly or unnecessarily in the very same way as it is a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays (without a good cause, such as sickness or want).
God wants obedience, rather than sacrifice. In other words, if you accept heretics or reject His dogmas or commandments, all your spiritual works will be worthless in His sight.
1 Kings 15:22-23: “And Samuel said: Doth the Lord desire h0Ɩ0cαųsts and victims, and not rather that the voice of the Lord should be obeyed? For obedience is better than sacrifices: and to hearken rather than to offer the fat of rams. Because it is like the sin of witchcraft to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey. Forasmuch as thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, the Lord hath also rejected thee from being king.”
If a person rejects God’s truth, he cannot please Him.
Only someone who does not fear God and Hell would willingly disobey His commandments.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7)
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1.- Hietanen, how is everything a sports player does an act of gambling? Does a baseball player commit a mortal sin for gambling every time he swings at a pitch? Is that really gambling? You could equally say a person "gambles" every time they eat a food they've never eaten before. There's always the risk of becoming sick from eating it, not liking it, etc.
2.-I think IrishUkrainian brought up a good point. If these things are mortal sins to do or even watch then we may as well go as far to say that using electricity on Sunday is a mortal sin. We may as well say buying a car is a mortal sin because it keeps car dealers that are open on Sundays in buisiness. We also may as well say that we are in mortal sin for using the internet on Sunday, since it takes us into a "virtual world". See the error in your logic here?
3.-If sports never played on Sunday or had trashy cheerleaders you'd still find some kind of way to say it is a mortal sin to watch sports. As a matter of fact, I have seen both high school and college football teams that not only refrain from playing on Sundays, but likewise do not have trashy cheerleaders. Are they still in mortal sin even though they have modest cheerleaders?
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1.- Hietanen, how is everything a sports player does an act of gambling? Does a baseball player commit a mortal sin for gambling every time he swings at a pitch? Is that really gambling?
An athlete probably knows that people are putting bets on him and on his team. He are thus himself a part of the gambling results and their pay outcome. The better the player/team is, the more is he worth less for the gamblers, since their pay outcome is less. If the best player is wounded, the gambling winning prize may increase since the team is not now as strong as it would be, etc. As we can see, everything revolves around the players in regards to gambling.
The athletes probably understands that people are gambling on their sporting activities, on their injuries and their achievements, etc. which they themselves are the cause of existing.
This athlete helps not only the gambling to exist, but he is also a part of the other mortal sins that gambling may lead people into, such as ѕυιcιdє, despair, wrath, sloth and the always mortally sinful practice of excess gambling (wasting money, throwing away money on nothing when people starve; we don't own out own money, God owns them!, we only own what we lawfully need, everything else belong to our neighbor!).
It's a fact that these players are the cause of that the mortal sin of sports-gambling even exist to begin with, thats the first problem. The second problem is that they also have an income because of it, and they know about it, thats the second problem. So, when being aware of these facts, the only moral thing for a person who fears God to do, is to disapprove of it and renounce it and no longer help in the cause of this sin to exist. If he can do it, but refuses, he is in fact approving of it by his continual deed of playing.
It does not matter if a politician says he is against abortion, but by his action or silence actually helps the cause of allowing or spreading abortion. This politician would be even more culpable by his silence the more he knew of the other sins this sin of abortion lead people into committing, such as adultery, fornication, etc. If the politician really was against abortion a,d the other sins it lead people into committing, he would do everything to prevent it.
Likewise, these players are guilty of all the other sins taking place around the arena (cheerleaders, bad commercials on the field, Sabbath breaking, etc.) and all the possible sins these sins might lead people into committing, such as the mortal sin of lust, the mortal sin of masturbation, the mortal sin of adultery or the mortal sin of fornication.
There is clearly no excuse for such behavior, and if they continue to be a part of what they know and see constitutes mortal sins for millions of people! They will have no excuse at all, and neither will all those who agrees with them or enjoy them committing these mortal sins against God and against their neighbor!
2.-I think IrishUkrainian brought up a good point. If these things are mortal sins to do or even watch then we may as well go as far to say that using electricity on Sunday is a mortal sin.
No, it is not a mortal sin to use necessary things on a Sunday, don't be ridiculous. You need electricity to keep yourself warm and survive, you need electricity to feed yourself. Stop being ridiculous.
Whether it be a sin or no sin at all lies first and foremost on necessity. People can be and is excused through necessity. By necessity may you work on Sunday, if you have to. Without necessity, their is mortal sin. Likewise, if you without cause do a completely unnecessary activity such as eating out on a Sunday when you don't need to (and which most people will never need to do on a Sunday), you are in fact committing a mortal sin through non-necessity. Through this non-necessity, where you the cause of creating a possible mortal sin of unnecessary work on a Sunday to your neighbor. There is no excuse for such behavior unless you did not understand that what you did was wrong. But now, however, when being aware of these facts, you will not escape mortal sin if you are helping others in doing unnecessary work through non-necessity.
We may as well say buying a car is a mortal sin because it keeps car dealers that are open on Sundays in buisiness.
Your exactly right. You don't have to buy a car on a Sunday, you can buy a car on another day. A person will not escape mortal sin if he obstinately continue with doing unnecessary things on a Sunday that he knows will constitute unnecessary work for his neighbor on a Sunday!
If you for some reason must buy a Car, because you are about to die, and you need to go to the hospital, then do neither you nor he who sold you the car sin, since both had necessity, he for selling, and you for buying.
However, the car dealer would not escape mortal sin if he worked knowingly on a Sunday (without necessity), and if he where unaware of your position (that you where dying and needed a car), since his intention was not to help you but to earn money unlawfully on a Sunday.
We also may as well say that we are in mortal sin for using the internet on Sunday, since it takes us into a "virtual world". See the error in your logic here?
Internet is not a work, unless you make it a work. Internet is a recreation. The difference with internet and with the real world is that you cannot possible know who is working or not working on a Sunday. So when there is ignorance and uncertainty if there even is sin, there cannot possible be sin on something as delicate as the Sabbath, since this particular subject only becomes sinful through what a person can understand.
One might presume news sites on the internet work on Sundays, but watching news can be a necessity (example: tsunami alert) and are therefore lawful. Besides from necessity, one should not seek out news on Sundays, or any worldly things or activities that you otherwise would do on the other days. Sundays is intended to be kept holy in search for God through prayer and reading.
And since we're talking about internet. For those who wish to avoid all the filthy ads on the internet forever, use this program:
http://adblockplus.org/en/
3.-If sports never played on Sunday or had trashy cheerleaders you'd still find some kind of way to say it is a mortal sin to watch sports.
If sports was never played on Sundays nor had trashy cheerleaders, there would still be the gambling problem, and a problem if there was bad commercials on the field that was approving of sinful activities/sins, whether it be contraception, alcohol or gambling, etc.
As a matter of fact, I have seen both high school and college football teams that not only refrain from playing on Sundays, but likewise do not have trashy cheerleaders. Are they still in mortal sin even though they have modest cheerleaders?
Woman should not dance or perform like cheerleaders do. They are after attention and to arouse sensuality in men. To do so is totally unacceptable. This activity of cheerleading is of itself a mortal sin! To move the body as the cheerleaders do is totally unacceptable, do to so is a clear cut mortal sin in of itself!
And unless the cheerleaders are fully dressed, wearing a dress eight inches below the knees, and not revealing their upper body in anyway, they are not modestly dressed at all.
It's unacceptable to wear a dress that are tight, or that are higher than eight inches below the knees (which was the minimum standard for Padre Pio). Woman are forbidden to wear pants that are anything near tight and that reveal their behind and their legs. In fact, woman shouldn't wear pants at all, and it could possible even be a sin for woman to wear modest pants. Woman never used pants ever before (unless for extreme necessity (like in war), as did John of Arc, but even then did she have a skirt covering the behind), and that for a reason. Mans eyes is drawn to the womans behind, and that's a fact! That is why the devil want woman to use pants. Woman is also forbidden to wear shirts that reveal their upper body in an unacceptable way. To show of the breasts in any way is an abominable mortal sin to be guilty of.
As pious modest woman dressed before the start of the filthy 1900 hundreds is really how woman always should be dressed if they desire to be saved. How did pious woman dress before? In such a way that they could not do scandal to their neighbor. If you do not dress like that (to avoid scandal), then you are probably already on the road to Hell unless you change immediately!
All those who dress trashy, or use make up to make others lust at you; yes all you who make your outward appearance looking good while deforming your soul, you should read this file:
http://www.catholic-saints.net/spiritual/#Vanity
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Hietanen, you suffer from the mother of all cases of scruples. Anyone who is even indirectly involved in an activity that might lead someone to mortal sin is sinning in your view. You are blaming football players for scantily-clad cheerleaders. There's no connection, they don't make the rules or set the program about what the cheerleaders are wearing. This isn't even material participation. That's like blaming a secretary in a doctor's office where indecent magazines are offered to clients to read.
"An athlete probably knows that people are putting bets on him and on his team. He are thus himself a part of the gambling results and their pay outcome."
So by this logic, and to bring this thread back around to the original topic, everyone who works at a business that's open on Sunday unnecessarily is participating in sin, even if they themselves have Sunday off.
See, the way you think, there is absolutely no way to live in this world. You need to go back and read some Jesuit theologians, or just any theologian really, and calibrate your Catholic sense. I have been sort of where you are, not as bad, but I definitely had scruples. I know how miserable they make you. Pray to God to be cured of this, because whether you know it or not, you're suffering. The devil, using you, has taken scruples to a level I didn't even know was possible.
How long have you been Catholic? I think sometimes these websites do a disservice to new Catholics, because it tempts you to speak before you're really ready. It can take a long time sometimes to achieve a state of mind that is even disposed towards humility, let alone actually humble. And that is the crucial thing, to have humility. We all think we have it but we all don't actually have it.
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IrishUkranian said:
If it's sinful to eat out on Sundays,
I never said it was sinful. I just think it's preferable not to. Tanquerey in The Spiritual Life writes about how there are certain things that we do that aren't mortal or even venial sins, but that can alienate us to some degree from God.
For instance, one thing I used to do is flip around on Facebook and look at girls. I figured it was okay because I'd just look at their faces, I wouldn't look at immodest pictures. I also had an account at CatholicMatch and would check to see what kind of Catholic girls are out there, if they're pretty, even though I don't want to be married.
This is not a mortal or venial sin. But why am I looking at girls in the first place, fully clothed as they may be? Can you imagine a monk flipping through headshots of movie stars? It's not indecent, per se, but it shows a heart that is drawn to the world. It's like the lust had been repressed to a point where I thought it was harmless curiosity, but no, it was still lust.
... then if you really wanted to take it to the Nth degree, the following ridiculous situations would come up:
You're committing mortal sin for using electricity on Sunday. After all, someone at the power company has to be working in order to keep the lights on.
No, because light is a necessity. If you read my earliest posts, I mentioned that I will get gas on Sundays, because gas stations have to be open for ambulances and so on.
You're committing mortal sin for watching NFL games on Sunday. Because you're "enabling" the players, coaches, referees, hotdog vendors, etc. to work on Sundays.
Playing football is not necessarily heavy labor.
But yes, I do think that watching NFL football is an unedifying way to spend Sunday, and Hietanen is right about the cheerleaders. It's pretty obvious to me that it is some kind of attack on God to schedule these games on a Sunday in the first place. Football just bores me, though, so I haven't given it much thought.
I do see your point though. If we have to not eat out on Sundays, then we shouldn't support any restaurant that is open on Sundays, even if we go there on other days...
My way of looking at it is, we can vote with our pocketbooks, but we don't need to take it too far. We should just do what we can.
Like when it comes to making a decision where to shop for food, there are two problems: ( a ) Stores that sell condoms and ( b ) Stores that belong to a company whose CEO supports abortions and is on a boycott list. In a pinch, I'll go to a ( b ) type store, and I'm not going to stop drinking Pepsi or whatever just because the CEO supports Planned Parenthood. I rarely take it that far. But only in an emergency will I go to an ( a )-type store, a store that sells condoms. I'll only go there if they have something I need and that I can't get elsewhere ( this usually means a prescription at the pharmacy ).
You can't fight city hall and everything is filthy in some degree. I just try to limit the filth. It may not mean much, but it makes me feel good to support a mom-and-pop shop instead of going to Ralph's -- that is a good side-effect of my rigor, perhaps. Another good side effect is that I've discovered Trader Joe's, which has cheap and good food, as well as Smart and Final, where I save lots of money, places I never went when I would just do all my shopping at the major chains.
I don't say everyone should do this, nor do I know I'll be able to keep it up indefinitely, but for now it's what I do.
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1.- Hietanen, Raoul has a big point. Players can not do anything about trashy cheerleaders or bad commercials. As far as the gambling, they can't do anything about that either. An athlete could come out and ask people not to gamble on him and they could still do it. So how is he in mortal sin for something he has no controll over?
2.- I'm not being ridiculous. I'm using the same logic you are, logic that oversteps a boundary, no doubt. See, a fine line needs to be drawn between what is and is not a sin. Go too far to the left side, and you'll act as if nothing is a sin. Go too far to the right side, like you have done, and you'll act as if nearly everything is a sin. Obviously the left side is far worse and is the side the devil would rather people go to, but if he can't get you to take that path he will get you to go the opposite way. What's the point of living if literally everything you do is a sin?
3.- I never said someone should buy a car on Sunday. I said if I were to take the approach you have taken I might as well never buy a car since most car dealers are open on Sunday and my money keeps them in buisiness. This is absurd logic and you also have not presented any actual evidence to back up your claims. That "evidence" you have presented is not convincing.
4.- I agree that a person shouldn't spend their entire Sunday watching sports, but as long as that person keeps Sabbath the Holy Day, it's not a sin to just watch sports some.
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Hietanen, you suffer from the mother of all cases of scruples. Anyone who is even indirectly involved in an activity that might lead someone to mortal sin is sinning in your view.
No that's not what I'm saying. Are you lying on purpose?
What I do say, however is that people who are directly involved in an activity that lead people to commit mortal sin is guilty of mortal sin. The player is directly part of the sin since he does not stay home to avoid the sin being committed in the first place.
The cheerleaders are there because of the players and because of the team, they are thus directly the cause of this problem. The players are approving them, and so are their team. The same applies with the gambling, since they have a paycheck from it. All their sporting revolves around mortal sins and non-necessity, and they are not avoiding going there to escape the mortal sins from being committed.
Catechism Question: “In how many ways may we either cause or share in the guilt of another‘s sin?” Answer: “We may either cause or share the guilt of another‘s sin in nine ways: 1. By counsel. 2. By command. 3. By consent. 4. By provocation. 5. By praise or flattery. 6. By concealment. 7. By being a partner in the sin. 8. By silence. 9. By defending the ill done..”
They are thus guilty in every way possible. Even more so when their game or work constitutes non-necessity. There work is the greatest waste of money possibly on earth, billions or trillions of dollars are wasted on nothing.
Besides, to call evident mortal sins only for a scruples is an infallible sign of damnation, and a sign that one does not fear God nor Hell as one should.
You are blaming football players for scantily-clad cheerleaders. There's no connection, they don't make the rules or set the program about what the cheerleaders are wearing. This isn't even material participation.
The cheerleader are part of their team, the cheerleaders are there because of the players and they are part of the same team, they are all in on this together. The players are fully aware that the millions of people that see these whoreish woman during their game would not see them half naked unless they walked into a strip club.
Behold a perfect comparison: If there were a game like a gladiator game where people took amusement in people killing each other - like in the old roman time - this would of course be a mortal sin to view and enjoy. Now, if there was a football game as the main attraction beside the gladiator game, and the cheerleaders (i.e the soul murdering gladiators in this comparison) were killing souls as part of the game, would that be ok for the players since they know that their game has these things in it? Of course not! The cheerleaders are part of that team, and wouldn't be there unless their team played the game. They are there and a part of the game. They are not excluded from it, but known by all. They are part of the game and attraction. They dance and move in accordance to the match times. They are part of the whole thing. To deny this is just simply to be a mortal sinner and an outrageous liar. Now the cheerleaders are perhaps worse in killing souls since they tempt billions of people into sin. They murder souls, yet you don't seem to care one bit. Hell will make you confess the truth after the second you die, sadly!
That's like blaming a secretary in a doctor's office where indecent magazines are offered to clients to read.
She could obviously not work there is she was a part of these magazines being spread, she could not pack them up, place them on the tables, or give them to others, for then it would be a mortal sin.
Let me me explain to you since you have a problem understanding:
The cheerleaders are there because of the players, and they are a part of the same team, but the magazines are not there because of the secretary.
The cheerleaders appearance follow the game, and as soon as there are some injury or break they appear, and this is known by everyone.
Therefore, your example was catastrophic, since the magazines are not dependant on the secretary as the cheerleaders are dependant on the team.
But if she did made the immoral sinful magazines to be there, then she would of course be in mortal sin and must stop working there.
everyone who works at a business that's open on Sunday unnecessarily is participating in sin, even if they themselves have Sunday off.
No, your logic is flawed, let me explain. If the pro-sport player chose to stay home on Sunday because he resented the Sabbath breaking, he would not have been guilty of the sin of Sabbath breaking or the sin of cheerleaders or the sin of gambling, since he was not part of that activity, nor did get payed for it.
Similarly, the worker who did not work on a Sunday (even though everyone else on there worked on Sunday) would not have sinned, since he did his part by staying away from working on Sunday, and neither did he get any income from working on a Sunday, since he stayed home. He thus did his part, he was not a part of their sin,and he didn't get payed for their sins, for he stayed home. He only got a paycheck for what he did, not for what the others did. The sports player, however, to avoid committing mortal sin, would have to stay away from his work indefinitely, and not for one day as with the other worker, and that's really the main difference between the two.
It can take a long time sometimes to achieve a state of mind that is even disposed towards humility, let alone actually humble. And that is the crucial thing, to have humility. We all think we have it but we all don't actually have it.
True humility is conformity to the will of God, and the thought of the possibility of being in error, and to be able to accept correction when being rebuked. It does not matter if a person thinks or says he's humble if rejects God's commands; for that is only false humility, pretended humility. For to act in such a way is an infallible sign of a prideful person who thinks he knows better then God himself!
So long a person rejects God commandments and disregards his dogmas, he cannot please Him.
Every argument you have made have been demolished. It only shows that you are in a state of damnation since you try to justify sins rather then having a horror for and escaping sins.
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If it's sinful to eat out on Sundays, then if you really wanted to take it to the Nth degree, the following ridiculous situations would come up:
You're committing mortal sin for using electricity on Sunday. After all, someone at the power company has to be working in order to keep the lights on.
:applause:
:applause:
Exactly! Well said. I hope you turn off your electricity, water, gas, phone, etc... Hietanen you pontificating armchair theologian. I'm quite surprised you have not elected yourself pope judging by the number of times you have condemned others for their "mortal sins" and excomunicated them. Come out of your cocoon. You are blinded by your own pride.
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If it's sinful to eat out on Sundays, then if you really wanted to take it to the Nth degree, the following ridiculous situations would come up:
You're committing mortal sin for using electricity on Sunday. After all, someone at the power company has to be working in order to keep the lights on.
:applause:
:applause:
Exactly! Well said. I hope you turn off your electricity, water, gas, phone, etc... Hietanen you pontificating armchair theologian. I'm quite surprised you have not elected yourself pope judging by the number of times you have condemned others for their "mortal sins" and excomunicated them. Come out of your cocoon. You are blinded by your own pride.
I am not surprised at all that you didn't read my response at his ridiculous statement. All the other things you mentioned has a necessity too. Pro-sports has no necessity, realize that you bad willed blind person!
Another person repeated his argument above, and it was refuted in the following manner:
No, it is not a mortal sin to use necessary things on a Sunday, don't be ridiculous. You need electricity to keep yourself warm and survive, you need electricity to feed yourself. Stop being ridiculous.
Whether it be a sin or no sin at all lies first and foremost on necessity. People can be and is excused through necessity. By necessity may you work on Sunday, if you have to. Without necessity, their is mortal sin. Likewise, if you without cause do a completely unnecessary activity such as eating out on a Sunday when you don't need to (and which most people will never need to do on a Sunday), you are in fact committing a mortal sin through non-necessity. Through this non-necessity, where you the cause of creating a possible mortal sin of unnecessary work on a Sunday to your neighbor. There is no excuse for such behavior unless you did not understand that what you did was wrong. But now, however, when being aware of these facts, you will not escape mortal sin if you are helping others in doing unnecessary work through non-necessity.
Many people don't read the responses refuting the arguments, since many people here want to justify their mortal sins of helping other people committing unnecessary work on Sundays, such as eating out, or watching pro-sports, etc.
Sinners excuse themselves in breaking God's laws. Real Catholics follow God's commandments and precepts.
Realize now that if you lived a hundred years ago, you wouldn't even try to argue against what I am saying.
For hundred years ago it would be an obvious thing not to work on Sundays or to encourage people into working unnecessary on Sundays (which is the reason for everything being completely dead on Sundays in the fully Catholic countries/towns). This would be obvious for all people, of course, except for the many mortal sinners in the last generation who value there worldly sinful activities more than they value God.
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Is it sinful to post on (or even read) this message board (or any other) on Sundays?
You are all a bunch of hypocritical sinners!!! (Ooops, that would include me -- what am I saying?!)
:alcohol: :dancing-banana: :bob-marley: :jumping2: :facepalm: :soapbox: :dancing: :geezer: :guitar: :cheers: :pop:
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Is it sinful to post on (or even read) this message board (or any other) on Sundays?
You are all a bunch of hypocritical sinners!!! (Ooops, that would include me -- what am I saying?!)
:alcohol: :dancing-banana: :bob-marley: :jumping2: :facepalm: :soapbox: :dancing: :geezer: :guitar: :cheers: :pop:
No, message boards are operating themselves on any given day, as is most internet sites. Besides, using a message board for spiritual reason have a necessity as well. People need to be feed (spiritually), even on Sundays.
And for people to compare forum, the internet or using electricity with pro sports or eating out, just reveal the bad will of some people, and they they are not after the truth, but in excusing.
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You don't need the Internet on Sundays. After all, you are forcing hundreds of network administrators, network engineers, technicians, not to mention customer support, etc. to work on Sundays.
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You don't need the Internet on Sundays. After all, you are forcing hundreds of network administrators, network engineers, technicians, not to mention customer support, etc. to work on Sundays.
Right. That is why I don't use the internet on Sundays except for my spiritual work, that is, helping and education my neighbor spiritually.
I don't watch news on Sundays, nor do I go in to any other worldly site at all during Sundays (unless I have to, for my spiritual work in spreading God's word/material).
Besides, those people or work you mentioned above, most of them has nothing to do with most internet sites anyway, since most are operated independently without forcing hundreds of network administrators, network engineers, technicians, not to mention customer support, etc.
Another point I made before was that we neither know who is working or not working on the sites your visiting for MONEY on Sundays, so this would be another reason why it would be acceptable to use the internet on Sundays (although not recommended at all unless for spiritual reasons, such as reading, or doing other spiritual works, etc. since that is what the Sunday is intended for.)
Also, many sites may have necessity to be up and operating on all days, so there could be a valid reason to work for keeping some sites up, such as hospital sites, or a tsunami warning site, etc.
So your examples are simply not correct.
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So, if a potential convert invited you out to eat on a Sunday to talk about converting to the One True Faith and Church, that would be okay? As for this Internet message board, would discussing non-spiritual items on Sundays be prohibited, say, talking about PCs?
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For all those not named Hietanen, I still have a problem eating out at restaurants on Sundays.
Using electricity is a necessity, just like getting gas, I've already covered that though people are ignoring it.
Going to a restaurant is not a necessity, not even if you have an irresistible craving for California Rolls, and shops and restaurants used to all be closed on Sunday.
I may go next time I'm asked just to not be a prig, calling on the tenet of "probabilism," I don't know.
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For all those not named Hietanen, I still have a problem eating out at restaurants on Sundays.
Using electricity is a necessity, just like getting gas, I've already covered that though people are ignoring it.
Going to a restaurant is not a necessity, not even if you have an irresistible craving for California Rolls, and shops and restaurants used to all be closed on Sunday.
I may go next time I'm asked just to not be a prig, calling on the tenet of "probabilism," I don't know.
Raul, you should consider the below passage before you do something which you know you shouldn't be doing:
1 Kings 15:22-23: “And Samuel said: Doth the Lord desire h0Ɩ0cαųsts and victims, and not rather that the voice of the Lord should be obeyed? For obedience is better than sacrifices: and to hearken rather than to offer the fat of rams. Because it is like the sin of witchcraft to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey. Forasmuch as thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, the Lord hath also rejected thee from being king.”
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For all those not named Hietanen, I still have a problem eating out at restaurants on Sundays.
Using electricity is a necessity, just like getting gas, I've already covered that though people are ignoring it.
Going to a restaurant is not a necessity, not even if you have an irresistible craving for California Rolls, and shops and restaurants used to all be closed on Sunday.
I may go next time I'm asked just to not be a prig, calling on the tenet of "probabilism," I don't know.
Raul, you should consider the below passage before you do something which you know you shouldn't be doing:
1 Kings 15:22-23: “And Samuel said: Doth the Lord desire h0Ɩ0cαųsts and victims, and not rather that the voice of the Lord should be obeyed? For obedience is better than sacrifices: and to hearken rather than to offer the fat of rams. Because it is like the sin of witchcraft to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey. Forasmuch as thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, the Lord hath also rejected thee from being king.”
Thank you for the words of wisdom, Pope Hietanen.