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Author Topic: Going to restaurants on Sundays.  (Read 18005 times)

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Going to restaurants on Sundays.
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2011, 02:01:56 PM »
1.- Hietanen, how is everything a sports player does an act of gambling? Does a baseball player commit a mortal sin for gambling every time he swings at a pitch? Is that really gambling? You could equally say a person "gambles" every time they eat a food they've never eaten before. There's always the risk of becoming sick from eating it, not liking it, etc.

2.-I think IrishUkrainian brought up a good point. If these things are mortal sins to do or even watch then we may as well go as far to say that using electricity on Sunday is a mortal sin. We may as well say buying a car is a mortal sin because it keeps car dealers that are open on Sundays in buisiness. We also may as well say that we are in mortal sin for using the internet on Sunday, since it takes us into a "virtual world". See the error in your logic here?

3.-If sports never played on Sunday or had trashy cheerleaders you'd still find some kind of way to say it is a mortal sin to watch sports. As a matter of fact, I have seen both high school and college football teams that not only refrain from playing on Sundays, but likewise do not have trashy cheerleaders. Are they still in mortal sin even though they have modest cheerleaders?

Going to restaurants on Sundays.
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2011, 05:53:21 PM »
Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
1.- Hietanen, how is everything a sports player does an act of gambling? Does a baseball player commit a mortal sin for gambling every time he swings at a pitch? Is that really gambling?


An athlete probably knows that people are putting bets on him and on his team. He are thus himself a part of the gambling results and their pay outcome. The better the player/team is, the more is he worth less for the gamblers, since their pay outcome is less. If the best player is wounded, the gambling winning prize may increase since the team is not now as strong as it would be, etc. As we can see, everything revolves around the players in regards to gambling.

The athletes probably understands that people are gambling on their sporting activities, on their injuries and their achievements, etc. which they themselves are the cause of existing.

This athlete helps not only the gambling to exist, but he is also a part of the other mortal sins that gambling may lead people into, such as ѕυιcιdє, despair, wrath, sloth and the always mortally sinful practice of excess gambling (wasting money, throwing away money on nothing when people starve; we don't own out own money, God owns them!, we only own what we lawfully need, everything else belong to our neighbor!).

It's a fact that these players are the cause of that the mortal sin of sports-gambling even exist to begin with, thats the first problem. The second problem is that they also have an income because of it, and they know about it, thats the second problem. So, when being aware of these facts, the only moral thing for a person who fears God to do, is to disapprove of it and renounce it and no longer help in the cause of this sin to exist. If he can do it, but refuses, he is in fact approving of it by his continual deed of playing.

It does not matter if a politician says he is against abortion, but by his action or silence actually helps the cause of allowing or spreading abortion. This politician would be even more culpable by his silence the more he knew of the other sins this sin of abortion lead people into committing, such as adultery, fornication, etc. If the politician really was against abortion a,d the other sins it lead people into committing, he would do everything to prevent it.

Likewise, these players are guilty of all the other sins taking place around the arena (cheerleaders, bad commercials on the field, Sabbath breaking, etc.) and all the possible sins these sins might lead people into committing, such as the mortal sin of lust, the mortal sin of masturbation, the mortal sin of adultery or the mortal sin of fornication.

There is clearly no excuse for such behavior, and if they continue to be a part of what they know and see constitutes mortal sins for millions of people! They will have no excuse at all, and neither will all those who agrees with them or enjoy them committing these mortal sins against God and against their neighbor!

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
2.-I think IrishUkrainian brought up a good point. If these things are mortal sins to do or even watch then we may as well go as far to say that using electricity on Sunday is a mortal sin.


No, it is not a mortal sin to use necessary things on a Sunday, don't be ridiculous. You need electricity to keep yourself warm and survive, you need electricity to feed yourself. Stop being ridiculous.

Whether it be a sin or no sin at all lies first and foremost on necessity. People can be and is excused through necessity. By necessity may you work on Sunday, if you have to. Without necessity, their is mortal sin. Likewise, if you without cause do a completely unnecessary activity such as eating out on a Sunday when you don't need to (and which most people will never need to do on a Sunday), you are in fact committing a mortal sin through non-necessity. Through this non-necessity, where you the cause of creating a possible mortal sin of unnecessary work on a Sunday to your neighbor. There is no excuse for such behavior unless you did not understand that what you did was wrong. But now, however, when being aware of these facts, you will not escape mortal sin if you are helping others in doing unnecessary work through non-necessity.

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
We may as well say buying a car is a mortal sin because it keeps car dealers that are open on Sundays in buisiness.


Your exactly right. You don't have to buy a car on a Sunday, you can buy a car on another day. A person will not escape mortal sin if he obstinately continue with doing unnecessary things on a Sunday that he knows will constitute unnecessary work for his neighbor on a Sunday!

If you for some reason must buy a Car, because you are about to die, and you need to go to the hospital, then do neither you nor he who sold you the car sin, since both had necessity, he for selling, and you for buying.

However, the car dealer would not escape mortal sin if he worked knowingly on a Sunday (without necessity), and if he where unaware of your position (that you where dying and needed a car), since his intention was not to help you but to earn money unlawfully on a Sunday.

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
We also may as well say that we are in mortal sin for using the internet on Sunday, since it takes us into a "virtual world". See the error in your logic here?


Internet is not a work, unless you make it a work. Internet is a recreation. The difference with internet and with the real world is that you cannot possible know who is working or not working on a Sunday. So when there is ignorance and uncertainty if there even is sin, there cannot possible be sin on something as delicate as the Sabbath, since this particular subject only becomes sinful through what a person can understand.

One might presume news sites on the internet work on Sundays, but watching news can be a necessity (example: tsunami alert) and are therefore lawful. Besides from necessity, one should not seek out news on Sundays, or any worldly things or activities that you otherwise would do on the other days. Sundays is intended to be kept holy in search for God through prayer and reading.

And since we're talking about internet. For those who wish to avoid all the filthy ads on the internet forever, use this program:

http://adblockplus.org/en/

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
3.-If sports never played on Sunday or had trashy cheerleaders you'd still find some kind of way to say it is a mortal sin to watch sports.


If sports was never played on Sundays nor had trashy cheerleaders, there would still be the gambling problem, and a problem if there was bad commercials on the field that was approving of sinful activities/sins, whether it be contraception, alcohol or gambling, etc.

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
As a matter of fact, I have seen both high school and college football teams that not only refrain from playing on Sundays, but likewise do not have trashy cheerleaders. Are they still in mortal sin even though they have modest cheerleaders?


Woman should not dance or perform like cheerleaders do. They are after attention and to arouse sensuality in men. To do so is totally unacceptable. This activity of cheerleading is of itself a mortal sin! To move the body as the cheerleaders do is totally unacceptable, do to so is a clear cut mortal sin in of itself!

And unless the cheerleaders are fully dressed, wearing a dress eight inches below the knees, and not revealing their upper body in anyway, they are not modestly dressed at all.

It's unacceptable to wear a dress that are tight, or that are higher than eight inches below the knees (which was the minimum standard for Padre Pio). Woman are forbidden to wear pants that are anything near tight and that reveal their behind and their legs. In fact, woman shouldn't wear pants at all, and it could possible even be a sin for woman to wear modest pants. Woman never used pants ever before (unless for extreme necessity (like in war), as did John of Arc, but even then did she have a skirt covering the behind), and that for a reason. Mans eyes is drawn to the womans behind, and that's a fact! That is why the devil want woman to use pants. Woman is also forbidden to wear shirts that reveal their upper body in an unacceptable way. To show of the breasts in any way is an abominable mortal sin to be guilty of.

As pious modest woman dressed before the start of the filthy 1900 hundreds is really how woman always should be dressed if they desire to be saved. How did pious woman dress before? In such a way that they could not do scandal to their neighbor. If you do not dress like that (to avoid scandal), then you are probably already on the road to Hell unless you change immediately!

All those who dress trashy, or use make up to make others lust at you; yes all you who make your outward appearance looking good while deforming your soul, you should read this file:

http://www.catholic-saints.net/spiritual/#Vanity


Going to restaurants on Sundays.
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2011, 06:29:08 PM »
Hietanen, you suffer from the mother of all cases of scruples.  Anyone who is even indirectly involved in an activity that might lead someone to mortal sin is sinning in your view.  You are blaming football players for scantily-clad cheerleaders.  There's no connection, they don't make the rules or set the program about what the cheerleaders are wearing.  This isn't even material participation.  That's like blaming a secretary in a doctor's office where indecent magazines are offered to clients to read.

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"An athlete probably knows that people are putting bets on him and on his team. He are thus himself a part of the gambling results and their pay outcome."


So by this logic, and to bring this thread back around to the original topic, everyone who works at a business that's open on Sunday unnecessarily is participating in sin, even if they themselves have Sunday off.

See, the way you think, there is absolutely no way to live in this world.  You need to go back and read some Jesuit theologians, or just any theologian really, and calibrate your Catholic sense.  I have been sort of where you are, not as bad, but I definitely had scruples.  I know how miserable they make you.  Pray to God to be cured of this, because whether you know it or not, you're suffering.  The devil, using you, has taken scruples to a level I didn't even know was possible.

How long have you been Catholic?  I think sometimes these websites do a disservice to new Catholics, because it tempts you to speak before you're really ready.  It can take a long time sometimes to achieve a state of mind that is even disposed towards humility, let alone actually humble.  And that is the crucial thing, to have humility.  We all think we have it but we all don't actually have it.  

Going to restaurants on Sundays.
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2011, 06:53:57 PM »
IrishUkranian said:

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If it's sinful to eat out on Sundays,


I never said it was sinful.  I just think it's preferable not to.  Tanquerey in The Spiritual Life writes about how there are certain things that we do that aren't mortal or even venial sins, but that can alienate us to some degree from God.

For instance, one thing I used to do is flip around on Facebook and look at girls.  I figured it was okay because I'd just look at their faces, I wouldn't look at immodest pictures.  I also had an account at CatholicMatch and would check to see what kind of Catholic girls are out there, if they're pretty, even though I don't want to be married.

This is not a mortal or venial sin.  But why am I looking at girls in the first place, fully clothed as they may be?  Can you imagine a monk flipping through headshots of movie stars?  It's not indecent, per se, but it shows a heart that is drawn to the world.  It's like the lust had been repressed to a point where I thought it was harmless curiosity, but no, it was still lust.

 
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... then if you really wanted to take it to the Nth degree, the following ridiculous situations would come up:

You're committing mortal sin for using electricity on Sunday. After all, someone at the power company has to be working in order to keep the lights on.


No, because light is a necessity.  If you read my earliest posts, I mentioned that I will get gas on Sundays, because gas stations have to be open for ambulances and so on.

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You're committing mortal sin for watching NFL games on Sunday. Because you're "enabling" the players, coaches, referees, hotdog vendors, etc. to work on Sundays.


Playing football is not necessarily heavy labor.  

But yes, I do think that watching NFL football is an unedifying way to spend Sunday, and Hietanen is right about the cheerleaders.  It's pretty obvious to me that it is some kind of attack on God to schedule these games on a Sunday in the first place.  Football just bores me, though, so I haven't given it much thought.

I do see your point though.  If we have to not eat out on Sundays, then we shouldn't support any restaurant that is open on Sundays, even if we go there on other days...
My way of looking at it is, we can vote with our pocketbooks, but we don't need to take it too far.  We should just do what we can.

Like when it comes to making a decision where to shop for food, there are two problems: ( a ) Stores that sell condoms and ( b ) Stores that belong to a company whose CEO supports abortions and is on a boycott list.  In a pinch, I'll go to a ( b ) type store, and I'm not going to stop drinking Pepsi or whatever just because the CEO supports Planned Parenthood.  I rarely take it that far.  But only in an emergency will I go to an ( a )-type store, a store that sells condoms.  I'll only go there if they have something I need and that I can't get elsewhere ( this usually means a prescription at the pharmacy ).

You can't fight city hall and everything is filthy in some degree.  I just try to limit the filth.  It may not mean much, but it makes me feel good to support a mom-and-pop shop instead of going to Ralph's -- that is a good side-effect of my rigor, perhaps.  Another good side effect is that I've discovered Trader Joe's, which has cheap and good food, as well as Smart and Final, where I save lots of money, places I never went when I would just do all my shopping at the major chains.  

I don't say everyone should do this, nor do I know I'll be able to keep it up indefinitely, but for now it's what I do.

Going to restaurants on Sundays.
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2011, 03:04:00 PM »
1.- Hietanen, Raoul has a big point. Players can not do anything about trashy cheerleaders or bad commercials. As far as the gambling, they can't do anything about that either. An athlete could come out and ask people not to gamble on him and they could still do it. So how is he in mortal sin for something he has no controll over?

2.- I'm not being ridiculous. I'm using the same logic you are, logic that oversteps a boundary, no doubt. See, a fine line needs to be drawn between what is and is not a sin. Go too far to the left side, and you'll act as if nothing is a sin. Go too far to the right side, like you have done, and you'll act as if nearly everything is a sin. Obviously the left side is far worse and is the side the devil would rather people go to, but if he can't get you to take that path he will get you to go the opposite way. What's the point of living if literally everything you do is a sin?

3.- I never said someone should buy a car on Sunday. I said if I were to take the approach you have taken I might as well never buy a car since most car dealers are open on Sunday and my money keeps them in buisiness. This is absurd logic and you also have not presented any actual evidence to back up your claims. That "evidence" you have presented is not convincing.

4.- I agree that a person shouldn't spend their entire Sunday watching sports, but as long as that person keeps Sabbath the Holy Day, it's not a sin to just watch sports some.