Quote from: Matthew

Good: Teacher, nurse, secretary, author, cook, accountant, bookkeeper, florist, anything artsy/creative, etc.

Bad: Police officer, fireman, construction worker, soldier, athlete, manager (anything that involves leading men), etc.

- Teachers need a college degree
- Nurses need a college degree (RN is no longer sufficient)
- Secretaries need vocational training
- Authors need training to learn to write well, vocational/college needed as few come by  this naturally.
- Cooks (chef) need vocational training
- Accountants need a college degree
- Bookkeepers need vocational training
- Florists need OJT + floral design classes

Except for the florist all of these need vocational school and/or college degrees.

So even "good" jobs would require a woman to get at least some degree of "higher" education.  This is why I think a blanket statement that women "should not go to college" is shortsighted.  

I completely agree with your list of "bad" employments for women. I absolutely believe there are many jobs that women should not do.

Marsha

When it comes to answering complicated questions like this one, you can have EITHER ONE of these:

Simple Answer
Correct Answer

But not both! :)

We have to be wise as serpents and simple as doves.

You need to look at the daughter in question. I believe a parent or other trusted elder can discern where the daughter is headed. Does she seem anxious to get married? Is she outgoing, beautiful, intelligent, etc.? What are her interests? How many young men does she encounter in the average month? How many at your local chapel? Etc.

If you think she might need education, there are many ways to get it. You have to be creative and think outside the box. You can take many classes from home these days (there are a TON of online colleges now), or learn on the Internet in a more informal manner (surfing the web and reading books). In my list (above) the only ones "you ain't gettin' in" without a degree/certification are: accountant, nurse, and teacher.  Sure, the others you best be able to do the job, but you can get that knowledge however you please. Heck, an internship or apprenticeship with an older (experienced) lady in that field would probably suffice.

But let's remember that college is *very* dangerous. Most colleges, I mean. It takes a special kind of person (willing to stay aloof from others and not be influenced by peers) to survive the ordeal with their soul in one piece.

If you want a general rule to go by -- well, the Bishop said it best. Any cases of higher education for women should be considered exceptions to the rule, and undertaken with the greatest caution.

Of course, men have to be darn careful as well -- but that's another story for another day.

It is high time for Catholics to buck the current and to buck the world! Europe, center of Christendom, is collapsing, because European girls are all being taught to go to "university" and to "put off' having babies! Woman and family are in desperate crisis - do we want to follow the swine over the cliff?

Excuse me, part of the reason that Europe is collapsing is because European men decided they wanted to have as much sex as possible without consequences.  So they bullied and cajoled women into accepting contraception, abortion and divorce. Also, men want women to take on careers because it lets them off the hook financially when it comes to supporting the family and, with fewer children, means they can spend more of their income of cars, holidays and gadgets.

Of course, this applies to men all over the world, and not just in Europe.

By hook or by crook, do something motherly, play your part as God meant you to do, and God can give you back from above the manly leaders and the husband that you pray for and need....

But God also meant a good portion of women to take up the religious life, or there would be no nuns.

But what are girls in the meantime to do, who have a brain and are not ready to get married? - Let them use their brain: firstly, to grasp how God designed them, and for what role; secondly, to pray God He grant us all some men; thirdly, to read at home on their own (for instance Jane Austen, a classic example of how much domestic woman can do); fourthly, to devise with their parents a feminine place and function where they can mature towards marriage.

Jane Austen had a house full of domestic servants to do her housework for her.  And she never married.

Or - for Heaven's sakes - let them think of a vocation! Old saying: "A woman is once a woman, a nun is twice a woman"!

At last.  What shame it reads like an afterthought though.  Given that '"a nun is twice a woman" you would think that a vocation would be at the top of his list of suggestions for girls.    

Excuse me, part of the reason that Europe is collapsing is because European men decided they wanted to have as much sex as possible without consequences.  So they bullied and cajoled women into accepting contraception, abortion and divorce. Also, men want women to take on careers because it lets them off the hook financially when it comes to supporting the family and, with fewer children, means they can spend more of their income of cars, holidays and gadgets.

Of course, this applies to men all over the world, and not just in Europe.

As you would say "excuse me" but the real reason Europe is collapsing is feminism and the freedom of women to pursue careers and do whatever they want. They put off children for the good life of keeping up with the Joneses next door. You need to get off your little feminist "it's all the man's fault, never the woman's" little tirade. If you look at China, Latin America, and the Islamic world their birthrates are at an all-time high for a simple reason: refusing to let women do what they want these peoples use the State and punishment if necessary to enforce women to have children. On the contrary, most men (with a few exceptions of course) want to have a family but women have shoved them aside in the workforce which stripped their responsibilities as a father and husband and made them do criminal activity instead.

But God also meant a good portion of women to take up the religious life, or there would be no nuns.

How can you speak about celibacy, when as a race, Europe is dying, and each woman needs to have nine children each? Besides any girl who wished to be a nun these days would lose her soul in the cloistered life with older nuns telling her to rebel against the "patriarchal" Church.

Jane Austen had a house full of domestic servants to do her housework for her.  And she never married.

On the contrary, any education is secondary, as the woman should first be concerned about the physical health of her body so she may have healthy children, her beauty needed to attract a man, and her sound moral character needed to maintain a marriage.

Quote from: Marlelar

And what is she to do if she has no vocation, and no man to marry?  Her parents will die eventually and leave her homeless.  I understand the dangers of modern colleges but consigning a woman to a minimum wage job, which is all she can hold w/o an education, will only ensure her living in poverty and that is no solution.  At some point our young women must learn to live in the world but not of the world.  Not an easy task in this day and age.

Until some wealthy traditional Catholic endows a vocational school for women what should they do?

Marsha

Even men are wasting time in universities nowadays. Things have changed big time. Better to have the entrepreneurial spririt. Women are better off having home businesses. Colleges and universities have been infiltrated by communist, progressive,  and leftist ideas, not to mention the total moral decadence and spiritual chaos one witness in the vast majority of institutions.

There are other options out there that better suit Catholics.

Could not agree more with this statement!

I noticed this post and I thought it was interesting, I tend to post 99% on crisis of the Church, but I thought a little rest from theology might serve me some good ^_^.

Worst mistake I ever did was go to college, every single bad choice I have ever made has been related to my going to college. Instead I should have followed my older brother's advice and simply have studied what I wanted to do. I would already be a professional programmer, and doing the projects that I am interested in. I would have also had the time to study Hebrew, Greek and master my Latin.

This is especially true now that we have tools like the internet that allow the autodidact to be able to teach himself with the guidance of always someone of course, whatever it is that you consider your personal goals. Plus there are so many awesome tools out there available, its amazing.

Everything that is good and important that I have learned has been outside of the University. People that already have the resources to have school paid for etc... Might be in a better position to attend university, but it really wasn't for me.

Instead, during that time I could already have self-taught myself all the things that I am barely doing that I have always wanted to do. I learn much better at my own pace, and not only that I don't get to neglect my health in the process. University gives you mostly busy, stupid work, that adds little to nothing to wisdom. Most people don't work in the career that they graduated, it is pretty bad. Now bachelor's degree is the new high school degree, and honestly with very rare few exceptions I tend to advice against going. Or waiting a bit before heading to the University, think everything through.

I neglected so many other important things, simply because it was always an exam after another exam, and it doesn't allow you to think about what you want to do. A little bit of time to really help you build long lasting habits, can go a long way.

There are industries being created at the moment, that don't have any sort of University degree. It is to the life-long learner that the new and most interesting jobs are going to be given to. Instead of wasting loans on a bad debt, it is a good idea to study and work hard to be your own boss. The point is that if you have the self-discipline to be consistent and keep to schedule. Self-learning can take you real far, its just a matter of finding the right mentors to guide you, and having what we call in spanish, "ganas" or a strong desire.

One of the most important skills in modern society is advanced computer skills, really take you far. Learning how to be efficient, and be able to have an excellent workflow.

I definitely recommend to those who are already not familiar, to take the leap to learn Linux the operating system, use any modern distributions. I have as a result really learned so much, where as I used to be just a power user. Now I can truly say that I know what I am doing, and I keep learning more of course. This will of course be helpful in my future goals, whatever they may be.

I would definitely recommend for women to get more involved in trying to find a way to be able to work from home. Ideally, if the husband can work closer to home, the better things will be. Remember that the word "husband" means "house bound" thus the most important thing to the important formation of children. Is to have both parents be present in the life of the child, as opposed to just mom and dad is a stranger to the raising of the child.

So learning these skills can be a huge plus to any future entrepreneur:
1) Be a fast typer, and even if possible learn stenography.
2) Learn some basic programming, any high level language will suffice.
3) Learn any linux/unix based operating system where by you are given true freedom as a user.
4) Learn how to be able to use an excellent text editor, such as Vim or Emacs with certain plugins. Microsoft Word, and other similar word processors are useless.
5) Learn software that has long and proven track records, and whose standards are not going to change much in the near future.
6) Don't be afraid to learn new things, and give it your best. Be a life long learner, and true education is never over.
7) Learn how to do some web development, designing of websites or anything similar to that sort. How to build your own wiki, and so forth.
8) Save and upload all your specialized configurations on Github, and automate your installations of software and settings. I.e. be efficient, learn how to detect any thing you do frequently and find a shortcut way to be able to handle it.
9) Find a relative, or a friend online, whoever that can be able to guide you through the initial hard learning curve.
10) Reap the rewards, and be a guru.

All of these things will help you better manage huge volumes of email efficiently, since it will be a very important form of communication to any person who works from home.

The earlier the age you start these things the better, and I would say definitely buy the books that I would say are the reference manuals. Spend like $500 dollars on the best stuff out there, and download the rest. The main point is that this is your investment in your self-education, these things are worth every penny. 100 times cheaper then any education you will get at a University. There are those that are intellectually lazy or don't have that initial drive to push them through. They would just waste most of their time, instead of using it wisely. To them I would just argue that even University won't do you any good. I would recommend simply go to the workforce and stay there long enough, until you finally have that drive to be a committed life time learner. A good home based business, should generate more then enough income to live a decent simple life worst case scenario, and best case scenario be very wealthy. Most importantly, you get to spend time with each other and raise the children properly as God intended. The younger you start, the better these things can work. There are some incredible programmers I know, that are only 18 years of age, and they started really young!

Never forget whether you are a male and a female, but especially if you are a female. To stay in excellent physical shape, because if you don't start these habits when you are younger once you get old it will be impossible to begin. The duties in your state of life, are going to drain you so much that you will simply feel like you never have enough energy. An excellent exercise routine will really help balance the intense intellectual life, and really help you to de-stress. There is no excuse for someone not to exercise, its just how important it is to you. Exercising pays in high dividends when you dedicate the time and the effort, plus it can be fun when you do calisthenics.

I have never been very athletic, as I never paid any importance to that. I saw that the life of the mind, is the most important thing and forgot to balance myself. Well it turns out that as you get older, things get a bit harder. Math used to be easier for me, and many other subjects when I was in high school,  deep level of abstract thinking especially. Now that I do balance both worlds, I can say that my intellectual life has had a jump start as a result of physical exercise. Plus when you are physically tired, and mentally tired you seem to get the best rest.

To develop the habit I say one year of consistent training will get you really good results, even if you are completely weak when you initially started, just like I was! Take a year off school, or work if you can and set your life straight. Really try your best to improve as much as you can, and you will see when you get back to work/school you will do 10 times better. If you already have a family, well it might be a bit harder but not impossible. As with any habit, you have to get it to be as easy as breathing, you don't even think about it.

For women I can't stress this enough, it is very important to try your best to be as healthy as you can be. Obviously without being obsessive about it, you really can't change your bone structure, and many other things. You can just improve with what you have been given, so just work with what you have and worry only about those things that are still within your control. It will certainly make a difference, if you are within your healthy weight range, and if you are 100 pounds overweight. Even Catholic men, tend to think not with their intellect (they should), but rather with their passions when making a choice of a spouse.

Lastly whether you are a female or a male, be happy with the gifts/talents that God specifically gave you and try your best to reach your potential. Don't feel rushed, you have all the time in the world. So long as you are really actively being consistent in working at your goals, you will make progress. With good progress, you develop a healthy feedback loop. So that it only encourages you more to continue and keep working hard. The mentality that if you don't graduate in 4 years or accomplish x by a certain time period, is idiotic. It assumes that everyone starts with the same circuмstances in life. Many people have a very harsh life, and yet they still work at their own pace to get their education. You don't need a diploma to tell you how much you really know, only you know what you are truly capable of and if you know what you are talking about. Another two skills that is a huge benefit for men in the workplace, is learning public speaking. Some folks might be really good natural speakers, but this is a skill that is really one of those that can be taught. I myself have to improve in this area, as I can still have a bit of stage fright depending on what audience I am talking to. The important thing is to learn that skill, this will increase your pay check without a doubt, an extra 0. Taking a course in college, won't make a difference either, you really need to simply practice doing this.

Example:
1) Someone losing weight at a good long term steady pace, feels better and general well being is increased. This encourages you to keep at it and work harder. Improves your good self-esteem and this is good especially when you are out there on the work force.

2) You start learning some new computing skills, and you start seeing with a few changes huge productivity boost within your work. This helps you to keep researching and learning what works best for you, and sooner rather then later you have your ideal workstation.

Start already and quit planning your grand maestro plan, of how you will do all of these things. Every year I would tell myself, "this is the year." Nothing... So I just decided to do just start doing something as opposed to nothing, and then you can later watch/read etc... Its not necessary to have a buddy, but it can be good to have one initially when you start. I had someone I started with for the first month, just to get me started after that I really did not need anyone.

Wish you all the best, in your life choices/goals.

Above all, God alone. Fiat voluntas tua. Amen

Traditional Guy 20 said,

.... the real reason Europe is collapsing is feminism and the freedom of women to pursue careers and do whatever they want. They put off children for the good life of keeping up with the Joneses next door. You need to get off your little feminist "it's all the man's fault, never the woman's" little tirade.

You're blaming feminism for the collapse of Europe and then accusing me of being on a feminist tirade!  I was there, while the sixties' sɛҳuąƖ revolution was unfolding, and I can vouch for the fact that it was instigated by men.  Yes men, who bullied and cajoled women into accepting so called 'sɛҳuąƖ liberation'.  If you don't like that then hard luck.  But it doesn't change the facts.  

And stop blaming feminism for everything.  There is far more to the collapse of Europe, and America, than that!

If you look at China, Latin America, and the Islamic world their birthrates are at an all-time high for a simple reason: refusing to let women do what they want these peoples use the State and punishment if necessary to enforce women to have children. On the contrary, most men (with a few exceptions of course) want to have a family but women have shoved them aside in the workforce which stripped their responsibilities as a father and husband and made them do criminal activity instead.

China until very recently, this year, enforced a one-child policy on couples and forced women to abort their second pregnancies.  Surely you know that.  And birth rates in Latin America and the Islamic world are falling, for your information.

How can you speak about celibacy, when as a race, Europe is dying, and each woman needs to have nine children each? Besides any girl who wished to be a nun these days would lose her soul in the cloistered life with older nuns telling her to rebel against the "patriarchal" Church.

Are you saying that women should be denied their vocations?  And how did you arrive at the need for every woman to have nine children each to save Europe, especially now that Western medicine prevents so many children dying in infancy as happened in the past.  

I accept your point about the rebellious older nuns, but surely these are confined to the Novus Ordo.  Why are there so few Traditional religious communities for women.  Is that because Traditionalists only consider the marriage option for their daughters?  

On the contrary, any education is secondary, as the woman should first be concerned about the physical health of her body so she may have healthy children, her beauty needed to attract a man, and her sound moral character needed to maintain a marriage.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my point about Jane Austin, who's message to girls consists of - marry a rich man so that you can employ servants to do your housework for you.

But you have a very narrow view of women.

China until very recently, this year, enforced a one-child policy on couples and forced women to abort their second pregnancies.  Surely you know that.  And birth rates in Latin America and the Islamic world are falling, for your information.

I don't know where you're getting your information from but birthrates in Latin America and in the Islamic world are at an all-time high, hence why they are easily overpowering the mostly-sterile folks of European descent with immigration. Obviously China enforced the one-child abortion policy but the birthrates in China have still skyrocketed.

Are you saying that women should be denied their vocations?  And how did you arrive at the need for every woman to have nine children each to save Europe, especially now that Western medicine prevents so many children dying in infancy as happened in the past.

Um Western "medicine" leads to children getting killed or prevented with contraception, abortion, sterilization, etc.  

I accept your point about the rebellious older nuns, but surely these are confined to the Novus Ordo.  Why are there so few Traditional religious communities for women.  Is that because Traditionalists only consider the marriage option for their daughters?

I do yes.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my point about Jane Austin, who's message to girls consists of - marry a rich man so that you can employ servants to do your housework for you.

This was in response to the previous poster which set Jane Austen as the ideal woman. I support the young girl marrying a poor boy. :wink:

But you have a very narrow view of women.

You have a hate-filled view of men and see them as Playboy-reading, women-hating deviants.

Keeping a good mind in ignorance is criminal.  St. Bonaventure was all for education.  

Let's put it this way, boys and girls, the Catholic Church disputes with words, thoughts, critical thinking skills.  If you're going to deny your daughters higher education, then you're creating a weak soldier for Christ!