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Author Topic: German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.  (Read 1064 times)

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Offline crossbro

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German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
« on: May 01, 2014, 11:32:00 PM »
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  • I guess this is big news if you live in Germany or Montana.

    Quote
    MISSOULA, Mont. - The German consulate called for justice Wednesday after a homeowner fired four blasts from a shotgun into his garage, killing a 17-year-old exchange student who was inside.



    Quote
    Kaarma's attorney, Paul Ryan, said his client plans to plead not guilty to a charge of deliberate homicide because Montana law allows homeowners to protect their residences with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed.


    LINK

    Personally, I think I believe in the Texas law Intruder invites a bullet.

    I think this is more a civil case than a criminal one. If you do not want to get shot then do not break into someone's home.


    What do you think ?


    Offline Emerentiana

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #1 on: May 02, 2014, 12:27:32 AM »
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  •  :applause:     so agree!    I live in Montana.   Good place to live!


    Offline OHCA

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #2 on: May 02, 2014, 01:46:51 AM »
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  • It's bs that the homeowner was even charged.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #3 on: May 02, 2014, 01:09:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: crossbro
    Personally, I think I believe in the Texas law Intruder invites a bullet.

    I think this is more a civil case than a criminal one. If you do not want to get shot then do not break into someone's home.


    What do you think ?


    Generally, yes. But if you haven't read this about the MN man convicted this week, it might be good to note that castle doctrine isn't an easy way to get rid of unwanted neighbors.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/29/minn-homeowner-convicted-premeditated-murder/
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline wallflower

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #4 on: May 02, 2014, 03:58:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: crossbro
    Personally, I think I believe in the Texas law Intruder invites a bullet.

    I think this is more a civil case than a criminal one. If you do not want to get shot then do not break into someone's home.


    What do you think ?


    Generally, yes. But if you haven't read this about the MN man convicted this week, it might be good to note that castle doctrine isn't an easy way to get rid of unwanted neighbors.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/29/minn-homeowner-convicted-premeditated-murder/


    Wow, that's horrible. Even if "defending" your home, how do you just say Whoops, you're dead, and la-di-da your way through killing another? He set them up and sat there waiting!! Wow.

    I find the defense of the home debatable mainly because as the article says, your force must be reasonable under the circuмstances. That's really hard to know under the pressure of such an event. Most people's judgment is much better in hindsight. I've been wanting to learn how to shoot but not kill for just such an occasion. I'm afraid I would kill unnecessarily or on the other end, in an effort NOT to kill, I might not hurt them enough to stop them.







    Offline Neil Obstat

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #5 on: May 03, 2014, 12:36:38 AM »
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  • .

    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.  Germans demand justice.



    Germans demand justice?  Wait a minute.  They already got their justice -- the burglar was shot.  Justice was served.  Warning to next burglar:  maybe break-in isn't such a good idea.  


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    Offline crossbro

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #6 on: May 03, 2014, 03:40:14 AM »
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  • Quote
    I've been wanting to learn how to shoot but not kill for just such an occasion


    There is no such thing. If someone breaks into your home or confronts you they have a plan for dealing with people who are weak.

    Offline Marlelar

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #7 on: May 03, 2014, 06:57:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower
    I find the defense of the home debatable mainly because as the article says, your force must be reasonable under the circuмstances. That's really hard to know under the pressure of such an event. Most people's judgment is much better in hindsight. I've been wanting to learn how to shoot but not kill for just such an occasion. I'm afraid I would kill unnecessarily or on the other end, in an effort NOT to kill, I might not hurt them enough to stop them.


    Someone who breaks into your home is not coming for dinner.  If he BREAKS IN he is up to no good.

    A wounded animal is a desperate animal, be it man or beast.  An average sized man can and will still function with a bullet in an arm or a leg.  He will come after you.

    A firearm is a deadly weapon with the accent on deadly.  Only use deadly force to achieve that end.  Otherwise have and practice a plan to exit the building.

    Marsha


    Offline wallflower

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #8 on: May 04, 2014, 06:07:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Quote from: wallflower
    I find the defense of the home debatable mainly because as the article says, your force must be reasonable under the circuмstances. That's really hard to know under the pressure of such an event. Most people's judgment is much better in hindsight. I've been wanting to learn how to shoot but not kill for just such an occasion. I'm afraid I would kill unnecessarily or on the other end, in an effort NOT to kill, I might not hurt them enough to stop them.


    Someone who breaks into your home is not coming for dinner.  If he BREAKS IN he is up to no good.

    A wounded animal is a desperate animal, be it man or beast.  An average sized man can and will still function with a bullet in an arm or a leg.  He will come after you.

    A firearm is a deadly weapon with the accent on deadly.  Only use deadly force to achieve that end.  Otherwise have and practice a plan to exit the building.

    Marsha


    This would be true if someone were breaking into your home and coming after you personally. I don't think it is always the case however. In the case that Mater posted, a wounding shot or even a warning shot would have been enough. They thought no one was home and were clearly going after his stuff, not him (as he knew from their previous burglaries). A warning shot may have even put a little fear into them and cured them, who knows.

    My stuff is not worth a life. My life is, and my family is, but not my stuff. They can have it if they want it that badly. But what someone is after and how far they will go to get it may not be clear in the moment so I would be ready to kill but hoping I don't have to.

    (All assuming my husband wasn't home of course and the defense landed on me.)





     

     

    Offline Dolores

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #9 on: May 04, 2014, 07:14:58 PM »
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  • I think we ought to consult Church teaching on this matter.

    Quote from: [i
    Summa Theologica[/i], Secunda Secundæ Partis, Question 64. Murder]Article 7. Whether it is lawful to kill a man in self-defense?

    Objection 1. It would seem that nobody may lawfully kill a man in self-defense. For Augustine says to Publicola (Ep. xlvii): "I do not agree with the opinion that one may kill a man lest one be killed by him; unless one be a soldier, exercise a public office, so that one does it not for oneself but for others, having the power to do so, provided it be in keeping with one's person." Now he who kills a man in self-defense, kills him lest he be killed by him. Therefore this would seem to be unlawful.

    Objection 2. Further, he says (De Lib. Arb. i, 5): "How are they free from sin in sight of Divine providence, who are guilty of taking a man's life for the sake of these contemptible things?" Now among contemptible things he reckons "those which men may forfeit unwillingly," as appears from the context (De Lib. Arb. i, 5): and the chief of these is the life of the body. Therefore it is unlawful for any man to take another's life for the sake of the life of his own body.

    Objection 3. Further, Pope Nicolas [Nicolas I, Dist. 1, can. De his clericis] says in the Decretals: "Concerning the clerics about whom you have consulted Us, those, namely, who have killed a pagan in self-defense, as to whether, after making amends by repenting, they may return to their former state, or rise to a higher degree; know that in no case is it lawful for them to kill any man under any circuмstances whatever." Now clerics and laymen are alike bound to observe the moral precepts. Therefore neither is it lawful for laymen to kill anyone in self-defense.

    Objection 4. Further, murder is a more grievous sin than fornication or adultery. Now nobody may lawfully commit simple fornication or adultery or any other mortal sin in order to save his own life; since the spiritual life is to be preferred to the life of the body. Therefore no man may lawfully take another's life in self-defense in order to save his own life.

    Objection 5. Further, if the tree be evil, so is the fruit, according to Matthew 7:17. Now self-defense itself seems to be unlawful, according to Romans 12:19: "Not defending [Douay: 'revenging'] yourselves, my dearly beloved." Therefore its result, which is the slaying of a man, is also unlawful.

    On the contrary, It is written (Exodus 22:2): "If a thief be found breaking into a house or undermining it, and be wounded so as to die; he that slew him shall not be guilty of blood." Now it is much more lawful to defend one's life than one's house. Therefore neither is a man guilty of murder if he kill another in defense of his own life.

    I answer that, Nothing hinders one act from having two effects, only one of which is intended, while the other is beside the intention. Now moral acts take their species according to what is intended, and not according to what is beside the intention, since this is accidental as explained above (43, 3; I-II, 12, 1). Accordingly the act of self-defense may have two effects, one is the saving of one's life, the other is the slaying of the aggressor. Therefore this act, since one's intention is to save one's own life, is not unlawful, seeing that it is natural to everything to keep itself in "being," as far as possible. And yet, though proceeding from a good intention, an act may be rendered unlawful, if it be out of proportion to the end. Wherefore if a man, in self-defense, uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repel force with moderation his defense will be lawful, because according to the jurists [Cap. Significasti, De Homicid. volunt. vel casual.], "it is lawful to repel force by force, provided one does not exceed the limits of a blameless defense." Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense in order to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. But as it is unlawful to take a man's life, except for the public authority acting for the common good, as stated above (Article 3), it is not lawful for a man to intend killing a man in self-defense, except for such as have public authority, who while intending to kill a man in self-defense, refer this to the public good, as in the case of a soldier fighting against the foe, and in the minister of the judge struggling with robbers, although even these sin if they be moved by private animosity.

    Reply to Objection 1. The words quoted from Augustine refer to the case when one man intends to kill another to save himself from death. The passage quoted in the Second Objection is to be understood in the same sense. Hence he says pointedly, "for the sake of these things," whereby he indicates the intention. This suffices for the Reply to the Second Objection.

    Reply to Objection 3. Irregularity results from the act though sinless of taking a man's life, as appears in the case of a judge who justly condemns a man to death. For this reason a cleric, though he kill a man in self-defense, is irregular, albeit he intends not to kill him, but to defend himself.

    Reply to Objection 4. The act of fornication or adultery is not necessarily directed to the preservation of one's own life, as is the act whence sometimes results the taking of a man's life.

    Reply to Objection 5. The defense forbidden in this passage is that which comes from revengeful spite. Hence a gloss says: "Not defending yourselves--that is, not striking your enemy back."

    Offline MaterDominici

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    German student shot dead in Montana breaking into home.
    « Reply #10 on: May 04, 2014, 07:18:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower
    Quote from: Marlelar
    Quote from: wallflower
    I find the defense of the home debatable mainly because as the article says, your force must be reasonable under the circuмstances. That's really hard to know under the pressure of such an event. Most people's judgment is much better in hindsight. I've been wanting to learn how to shoot but not kill for just such an occasion. I'm afraid I would kill unnecessarily or on the other end, in an effort NOT to kill, I might not hurt them enough to stop them.


    Someone who breaks into your home is not coming for dinner.  If he BREAKS IN he is up to no good.

    A wounded animal is a desperate animal, be it man or beast.  An average sized man can and will still function with a bullet in an arm or a leg.  He will come after you.

    A firearm is a deadly weapon with the accent on deadly.  Only use deadly force to achieve that end.  Otherwise have and practice a plan to exit the building.

    Marsha


    This would be true if someone were breaking into your home and coming after you personally. I don't think it is always the case however. In the case that Mater posted, a wounding shot or even a warning shot would have been enough. They thought no one was home and were clearly going after his stuff, not him (as he knew from their previous burglaries). A warning shot may have even put a little fear into them and cured them, who knows.

    My stuff is not worth a life. My life is, and my family is, but not my stuff. They can have it if they want it that badly. But what someone is after and how far they will go to get it may not be clear in the moment so I would be ready to kill but hoping I don't have to.

    (All assuming my husband wasn't home of course and the defense landed on me.)

     


    I don't know if your "shoot but don't kill" would ever make sense. If you are looking at a situation like I posted -- unarmed teenagers -- a warning shot in a different direction would be sufficient to scare them off. If you don't want to kill,then don't shoot at them. OTOH, you have no way of knowing how far an armed person will go and injuring them to the point where they can't escape will only make them more likely to shoot at you.

    Here's another recent story: Man and new wife return home from Thanksgiving visit to relatives and see a strange vehicle parked in front of their home. He drops his wife off at a neighbor and then returns to check the house. Upon entering he discovers they are being robbed. The robbers begin firing at him. He escapes far enough to place a 911 call. Attempting to escape the scene altogether, he reaches his car and begins to drive away. He is shot in the head through the car window and is killed.

    They weren't there for him, only his stuff, but were more than willing to kill anyone who witnessed their crime.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson