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Author Topic: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist  (Read 3169 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2018, 02:08:13 PM »
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  • I have not come to a conclusion on this issue, but I have a question. How to explain the many times Jesus quoted from the Book of Enoch?

    [I have removed the link to a heretical site and quote from it.]

    Cera, you are citing a Latter Day Saints (Mormon) website.  These people are heretics who reject the Church's authority and claim that Enoch is inspired Scripture.  That should be setting off warning bells for you. 

    Even these people acknowledge that there is only one direct quote from Enoch.  It says "The one direct quote in the New Testament is by Jude, a brother of Jesus Christ." (Note the erroneous claim that Our Lord had a brother.)

    The list you have quoted is passages using similar turns of phrase.  This is hardly surprising in works from similar times and cultures.  It is not even strong evidence that Our Lord had Enoch in mind.  Still less does it show that He considered it Scripture.  

    Even the Mormon site admits: "It was quoted as scripture by the early Christian Church fathers until the middle of the third century AD, accepted as a divine work having been written by Enoch himself.[5] It then fell into disrepute and was banned from the canon of scripture in the fourth century," and that "the Book of Enoch was systematically purged from the scriptures until it became a "lost book" of the Bible" until rediscovered in 1773.

    The example of the Mormons demonstrates how giving authority to Enoch is associated with rejecting the authority of the Church.  This is exactly why we need to be cautious about how we speak of it and need to be clear about Enoch's lack of authority.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #16 on: September 21, 2018, 02:10:46 PM »
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  • We’ve admitted this, Jaynek, multiple times.  Quit beating a dead horse. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #17 on: September 21, 2018, 02:22:38 PM »
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  • We’ve admitted this, Jaynek, multiple times.  Quit beating a dead horse.
    Cera asked a question so I answered it.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #18 on: September 21, 2018, 07:44:31 PM »
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  • The Sons of Men were sinners.

    The Sons of God were those who still had the faith of Adam (the Faith) and were just, until intermarriage.

    You are right.

    The Sons of Men were the followers of errors.

    The Sons of God were the professors of the True Religion.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #19 on: September 21, 2018, 07:56:35 PM »
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  • In the scriptural annotations, these "Sons of God" do appear as the sons of Seth. The distinction in that passage was between the Elect (professors of true religion) and the Reprobate (professors of error and wicked opinions - false religion). 

    The distinction is today between Catholics and Heretics. 


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #20 on: September 21, 2018, 08:31:50 PM »
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  • As far as the Giants, it appears as an erroneous opinion to think that these giants were begotten by Devils allured with concupiscence towards the daughters of men, since Angels and Devils are mere spirits without natural bodies. If you notice, in that very passage the giants are called "men". "These be the mighty ones, famous men". They were both monstrous in body and soul, but they were still mortal. The Devils are not. 





    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #21 on: September 22, 2018, 02:49:28 PM »
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  • Cera, you are citing a Latter Day Saints (Mormon) website.  These people are heretics who reject the Church's authority and claim that Enoch is inspired Scripture.  That should be setting off warning bells for you.
    . . .
    The list you have quoted is passages using similar turns of phrase.  This is hardly surprising in works from similar times and cultures.  It is not even strong evidence that Our Lord had Enoch in mind.  Still less does it show that He considered it Scripture. ...
    Nice try at "guilt by association," but the quotes from Jesus and the quotes from the Book of Enoch are factual, whatever the source. Facts are facts.
    As you well know, it was not a Mormon website -- only a scholar who happens to be a Mormon. Nowhere on his site does it say his religion.
    As you must know, translation and re-translation slightly changes the words, leading to what you call "similar turns of phrase." Read with an open mind, it becomes obvious that Our Lord was familiar with the Book of Enoch and often referred to it.
    Our Faith teaches us to use reason. Is it reasonable to reject any information from any source because it is Protestant, or it is not Catholic or Traditional Catholic? If so, have you vetted all of your doctors and other professionals, all of your reading material, your news sources? Their facts must be suspect to you.
    The facts on Jesus citing the Book of Enoch are widely available from non-Mormon sources. For example here:
    https://www.nairaland.com/1080843/book-enoch-jesus-quoted-it
    Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

    the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22).
    the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})

    shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29)
    those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})

    "Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).

    Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28)
    I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})

    Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24)
    Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})

    between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26)
    by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})

    In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2)
    In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})

    that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36)
    the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})

    the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14)
    all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #22 on: September 22, 2018, 07:31:23 PM »
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  • Nice try at "guilt by association," but the quotes from Jesus and the quotes from the Book of Enoch are factual, whatever the source. Facts are facts.
    As you well know, it was not a Mormon website -- only a scholar who happens to be a Mormon. Nowhere on his site does it say his religion.
    As you must know, translation and re-translation slightly changes the words, leading to what you call "similar turns of phrase." Read with an open mind, it becomes obvious that Our Lord was familiar with the Book of Enoch and often referred to it.
    It is not "guilt by association".  You cited a heretic's argument in support of his erroneous view of Enoch based on his heretical belief that the Catholic Church does not have authority over Scripture.  Heresy is intrinsic to the argument. This author is not some objective observer stating facts.  He is an apologist for a false religion, trying to show that they are right to claim that Enoch is Scripture.  While you did not cite an official Mormon site, the article originally appeared in an explicitly Mormon magazine.

    The quotes show similarities between Enoch and words of Our Lord.  That is the only "fact".  The conclusions he draws from this are not facts.   While it is possible that Our Lord was referring to Enoch, it is also possible that they shared a common source.  For example, both Job and Ecclesiastes make references to being better to have never been born.  Both Enoch and Our Lord would have been familiar with these passages.  The similar phrases in Enoch and the Gospels could be due to both of them referring to Job and/or Ecclesiastes.  So it is not obvious that Our Lord was referring to Enoch, only possible.

    And even if Our Lord did read the book of Enoch and use phrases from it, as you imagine, this does not show that He considered Enoch an authority.  I have read Shakespeare and quote him, but I do not think that Shakespeare's works are authoritative or inerrant.  There is no reason to assume that a reference to Enoch has any more significance that a reference to Shakespeare.

    Our Faith teaches us to use reason. Is it reasonable to reject any information from any source because it is Protestant, or it is not Catholic or Traditional Catholic? If so, have you vetted all of your doctors and other professionals, all of your reading material, your news sources? Their facts must be suspect to you.
    The facts on Jesus citing the Book of Enoch are widely available from non-Mormon sources. For example here:
    https://www.nairaland.com/1080843/book-enoch-jesus-quoted-it
    It is reasonable to be highly suspicious of "information" explicitly given in support of false doctrines.  There are times when it is reasonable to use information from non-Catholic sources, but discussion of religious matters is not one of those times.

    The non-Mormon source you are citing has elsewhere claimed that the Archangel Michael is really Jesus Christ, that Our Lord did not really descend into hell as stated in the Creed, and that watching pornography is not a sin.  He does not appear to have much credibility.  He incorrect to refer to words of Our Lord which resemble phrases in Enoch as quotes because we do not know that Enoch was the source.  

    This is how the Catholic Encyclopedia puts it: "There are probable traces of the Henoch literature in other portions of the New Testament." This is a reasonable way to express the relationship.  This is how people write about Enoch when they are not trying to promote heresies or kooky theories.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #23 on: September 22, 2018, 09:59:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    Read with an open mind, it becomes obvious that Our Lord was familiar with the Book of Enoch and often referred to it.
    Of course He was quoting Enoch, because the Jєωs considered this book inspired.


    Quote
    And even if Our Lord did read the book of Enoch and use phrases from it, as you imagine, this does not show that He considered Enoch an authority.
    At the time of Christ, and for centuries before, it is a historical FACT that the Jєωs considered the book of Enoch as inspired.  This is why Jesus quoted from it, this is why St Jude quoted from it and it is why many of the Church Fathers also used this book to explain the end times.  As has been said already, the book of Enoch was not included as part of scripture NOT because there were problems with Enoch's writings but because such writings had become partially lost and the new translations were not trusted 100%.  (The original texts were probably lost at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but that's just a guess).

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #24 on: September 23, 2018, 08:04:55 AM »
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  • Of course He was quoting Enoch, because the Jєωs considered this book inspired.

    At the time of Christ, and for centuries before, it is a historical FACT that the Jєωs considered the book of Enoch as inspired.  This is why Jesus quoted from it, this is why St Jude quoted from it and it is why many of the Church Fathers also used this book to explain the end times.  As has been said already, the book of Enoch was not included as part of scripture NOT because there were problems with Enoch's writings but because such writings had become partially lost and the new translations were not trusted 100%.  (The original texts were probably lost at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but that's just a guess).
    There is no "of course" about any of this.  Most of what you are calling "fact" is merely speculation.  

    There is evidence that some Jєωs may have considered Enoch inspired but we do not know how widespread the belief was.  At the time of Christ,the Jєωs were split among many sects. There were various works circulating at this time known as "apocalyptic literature" with similar language and themes that were influential in some of these sects.  Enoch is probably one of these works.  Some Church Fathers accepted Enoch.  Other Fathers (including St. Jerome) rejected it and even doubted the canonicity of the book of Jude due to the apparent quote from Enoch in it.  Our Lord made no direct extended quotes from Enoch although there are grounds to believe that He was familiar with it or other similar apocalyptic literature due to some of the expressions He used.

    There is a theory that Enoch was an originally acceptable work that became too corrupted to include in the canon.  There is another theory that it was rejected from the canon as people came to recognize that it was not actually written by the Enoch mentioned in the OT.  (Current consensus is that it was written by multiple authors during the intertestamental period.)  

    There are few actual facts to work with.  The most pertinent one is that the Church did not include Enoch in the canon and that we should therefore not treat it as authoritative or inspired.  Another fact that I find significant is that, after the setting of the canon in the fourth century, there is no Catholic tradition of treating Enoch as respected literature. This is a theological novelty of recent times.  The main group promoting acceptance of Enoch is Mormons, a group that goes beyond the usual amount of Protestant errors.  It is debatable whether they should be classified as Christian heretics or as non-Christians.

    While we should not assume that anything and everything written in Enoch is false, there is no reason to give it any special weight.  There are no facts to support doing so.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #25 on: September 23, 2018, 08:46:23 AM »
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  • .
    There is another theory that it was rejected from the canon as people came to recognize that it was not actually written by the Enoch mentioned in the OT.  

    There are few actual facts to work with.  The most pertinent one is that the Church did not include Enoch in the canon and that we should therefore not treat it as authoritative or inspired.

    .
    There is a mountain of ancient writings that are NOT Scripture.
    This so-called book of Enoch is just one of them, nothing more.
    UFO fanatics and other screwballs like to refer to it to prop up their own faltering legitimacy.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #26 on: September 23, 2018, 08:46:36 AM »
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  • It is really very simple, the book of Enoch is not an approved book by the Catholic church, therefore your time of spiritual reading could be better spent on approved books, of which there are many.  

    It has already been brought that the Church teaches that the evil spirits are just that SPIRITS, without any bodies to procreate, don't be deceived.  There are what is known as pygmies in the world, why not giants.
    There are black people and white people, people with slanted eyes etc. We all have an immortal soul to save and should be praying for each other.  

    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #27 on: September 23, 2018, 09:25:42 AM »
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  • Of course He was quoting Enoch, because the Jєωs considered this book inspired.

    At the time of Christ, and for centuries before, it is a historical FACT that the Jєωs considered the book of Enoch as inspired.  This is why Jesus quoted from it, this is why St Jude quoted from it and it is why many of the Church Fathers also used this book to explain the end times.  As has been said already, the book of Enoch was not included as part of scripture NOT because there were problems with Enoch's writings but because such writings had become partially lost and the new translations were not trusted 100%.  (The original texts were probably lost at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but that's just a guess).
    This. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #28 on: September 23, 2018, 01:07:22 PM »
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  • For the record, I do not have any personal animosity towards Pax Vobis, nor have I been down voting his posts in this thread.  On the contrary I have a good impression of him and no problems with theory he introduced in this thread.

    I did not intend to introduce any controversy into the discussion.  I only wanted to make the point that we need to be careful when discussing Enoch to avoid suggesting or implying that the Church was mistaken in excluding it from the canon.  Because there are people claiming the Church was wrong, we should make an effort to be clear that we do not consider Enoch to be authoritative and inerrant Scripture.

    I have seen other posters on this forum writing as if Enoch carried some sort of authority as "almost Scripture".  This is largely why I felt it worth raising the subject at this time.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #29 on: September 23, 2018, 05:16:22 PM »
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  • .
    There is a mountain of ancient writings that are NOT Scripture.
    This so-called book of Enoch is just one of them, nothing more.
    UFO fanatics and other screwballs like to refer to it to prop up their own faltering legitimacy.
    Actually, it is those who OPPOSE the UFO fanatics who are using both the Bible and reason to show that what most people believe to be UFOs are actually demonic activity.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary