Author Topic: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist  (Read 2342 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
« on: September 20, 2018, 05:14:27 PM »
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  • What did the Church Fathers say about the "giants" in Genesis?
    How does this possibly connect with the modern lie of aliens?
    Was genetic engineering referenced in Genesis, and will it return in the times of the anti-christ?


    Hollywood, which is fully deep-state controlled, has been pumping alien propaganda for decades.  The music industry (also luciferian) has also been alluding to the fact of demon-animal-human hybrids in many of their songs and music videos.  I believe the 'aliens from another planet' story is completely false, but is being used to explain how and why demon-animal-human hybrids will once again appear on the earth.

    I say "again appear" because the story of Noah, confirmed by the majority of the Church Fathers up until the time of St Augustine (so, from 70 AD -400s) believed and wrote that one of the reasons that God destroyed the earth by flood was due to demons who had children by women, and which children became the "giants" spoken of in Genesis and who also existed post-flood, the giant nations who the Isrealites had to conquer (i.e. David vs Goliath).  It is argued that Satan knew that Christ would be born of the line of David, so he corrupted angels to leave heaven (which God obviously allowed) and to seduce and "marry" women on earth, in order to corrupt the genetic line of humanity and David's lineage, which would make the arrival of Christ impossible.


    Genesis 6, 1-4
    6 And after that men began to be multiplied upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, The sons of God seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all which they chose. And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. Now giants were upon the earth in those days. For after the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown.


    Flavius Joseph
    “For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants.”
    Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, 3:1, Flavius Josephus, as recorded in The Works of Flavius Josephus, William Whiston, Vol. 1, 1843, p. 16.

    Tertullian
    “We are instructed, moreover, by our sacred books how from certain angels, who fell of their own free-will, there sprang a more wicked demon-brood, condemned of God along with the authors of their race, and that chief we have referred to. It will for the present be enough, however, that some account is given of their work. Their great business is the ruin of mankind. So, from the very first, spiritual wickedness sought our destruction. They inflict, accordingly, upon our bodies diseases and other grievous calamities, while by violent assaults they hurry the soul into sudden and extraordinary excesses.” Apology, Ch. XXII.

    Lucius Lactantius
    “When, therefore, the number of men had begun to increase, God in His forethought, lest the devil, to whom from the beginning He had given power over the earth, should by his subtlety either corrupt or destroy men, as he had done at first, sent angels for the protection and improvement of the human race; and inasmuch as He had given these a free will, He enjoined them above all things not to defile themselves with contamination from the earth, and thus lose the dignity of their heavenly nature. He plainly prohibited them from doing that which He knew that they would do, that they might entertain no hope of pardon. Therefore, while they abode among men, that most deceitful ruler of the earth, by his very association, gradually enticed them to vices, and polluted them by intercourse with women.” – Lactantius, Divine Institutes, Book II, Ch. XV.

    St Ambrose
    “The giants (Nephilim) were on the Earth in those days.” The author of the divine Scripture does not mean that those giants must be considered, according to the tradition of poets, as sons of the earth but asserts that those whom he defines with such a name because of the extraordinary size of their body were generated by angels and women.”
    Ambrose, On Noah, 4.8. Genesis 1-11, Volume 1 edited by Andrew Louth, Thomas C. Oden, Marco Conti

    St Irenaeus
    “And for a very long while wickedness extended and spread, and reached and laid hold upon the whole race of mankind, until a very small seed of righteousness remained among them and illicit unions took place upon the earth, since angels were united with the daughters of the race of mankind; and they bore to them sons who for their exceeding greatness were called giants.”
    A Discourse in the Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching; 18.

    "For unlawful unions occurred on earth, as angels united themselves with daughters of men, who bore them sons who, because of their exaggerated height, were called giants (cf. Gen 6.2-4). The angels then gave their wives, as gifts, wicked teachings, for they taught them the powers of roots and herbs, of dyeing and cosmetics, and the discovery of precious material, love-potions, hatreds, loves, infatuations, seductions, bonds of witchcraft, and all kinds of divination and idolatry hateful to God. When these entered the world, the things of wickedness overabounded, while those of righteousness decreased, until judgement came upon the world from God […]"
    (A demonstration of the apostolic preaching, 18, 19).


    Justin Marytr
    “God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law – for these things also He evidently made for man – committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment. and were captivated by love of women.” Second Apology; Chapter V.

    ---

    The book of enoch (which is not canonical, but was almost considered as such) also talks about this genetic corruption and how the the flood killed the human-demon "children" of the bad angels.  But the flood only killed the human form, the spirits lived on and this explains the folklore tales, strange events and weird happenings which occur in the woods and deep forests - because these evil spirits still live on earth, and they try to possess animals or humans so they can have a body again.  They will roam the earth until the end of the world, when they will go to hell.

    The bad angels who left heaven and started all this mess in Genesis have been chained in the bowels of the earth until the end of the world, when they will be sent to hell for eternity.  Enoch describes that these bad angels, before the flood, made men to worship them because they were knowledgeable of all things on earth - they taught men how to make weapons from metal, how to polish and find precious stones for jewelry, how to talk to the dead and other forms of sorcery, how to use herbs and other plants for potions and healing, etc, etc.

    St Jude mentions those angels who forsook their angelic abode and came to earth:
    6 And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.  (Jude 1 6:7)


    St Peter (Peter 2, 4:7) also refers to the angels who sinned:
    For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment: 5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly. 6 And reducing the cities of the Sodomites, and of the Gomorrhites, into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example to those that should after act wickedly. 7 And delivered just Lot, oppressed by the injustice and lewd conversation of the wicked.

    The apocalypse makes mention of the "key to the bottomless pit" being opened the devils being let loose to roam the earth.  I believe this will happen during the 3 days of darkness because other prophecies have mentioned the demons being let loose and inflicting God's justice on those men who worshipped satan.  (Oh, the irony!  Those that worshipped evil will be destroyed by the same evil.  But I digress...)   There's evidence that elite scientists at CERN have been tunneling towards the center of the earth in order to create an opening to hell and "another dimension".  The town in France where CERN is partially situated is called “Saint-Genus-Poilly.” The name Pouilly comes from the Latin “Appolliacum” and it is believed that in Roman times a temple existed in honor of Apollo, and the people who lived there believed that it is a gateway to the underworld. It is interesting to note that CERN is built on the same spot.

    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/313922-cern-collider-hadron-higgs/


    9 And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet, and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth, and there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit: and the smoke of the pit arose, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke of the pit.  And from the smoke of the pit there came out locusts upon the earth. And power was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have power: (Apocalypse 9, 1:3)

    And they had tails like to scorpions, and there were stings in their tails; and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had over them 11 A king, the angel of the bottomless pit; whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek Apollyon; in Latin Exterminans, (Apocalypse 9, 10:11)


    There's also a lot of speculation that Antarctica is one place where the elites go to talk with these demons who are chained.  Why else to people like Pope Francis, John Kerry, Obama, the head Patriarch of the Orthodox, etc go to Antarctica?  (And they go secretly)  What are they doing there?  Enoch's description of the place on earth where he went to see the bottomless pit has many similarities with Antarctica.

    So how is this all connected?  Well, many believe that the times of Noah were filled with genetic mutations and manipulations because Lucifer wanted to destroy humanity and also because he wants to re-created demonic manifestations in humans.  When Christ referred to the evil days of Noah, it is easy to think that He just meant the weight of sin at the time, but could he also refer to the genetic engineering that our technology has made possible?  And if so, then would genetic mutations and the re-emergence of the "giants" not be a sign of the times of the anti-christ, since these things happened in the days of Noe, and therefore, would also happen before Christ comes again?

    37 And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  (Matt 24, V37)


    ***Disclaimer***
    The phrase in Genesis says that the "sons of God" sinned with women.  Many Church Fathers interpret the "sons of god" to mean angels, as the quotes above show (and there are more quotes).  Yet, some other Fathers say that "sons of God" mean the "sons of shem", who was considered the most orthodox of Noe's sons, in contrast to the sons of Cain, who were pagans.  It seems that this passage/interpretation has not been decided by the Church, so my thought process above could be wrong.  Take it with a grain of salt.

    Were the Sons of God incorporeal Angels?

    b. 100 - St Justin Martyr - YES
    b. 115 - St Iraneous of Lyons - YES
    b. 150 - St Clement of Alexandria - YES
    b. 160 - Tertullian - YES
    b. 160 - Julius Africanus - YES
    b. 133 - St. Athenagoras of Alexandria - YES
    b. 240 – Lactantius – YES
    mid 200s - St Methodius - YES
    b. 253 - Archelaus - YES
    b. 275 - Eusebius of Caesarea - YES
    b. 306 - St Ephraim the Syrian - NO, sons of Shem
    b. 313 - St Cyril of Jerusalem - NO, they were sons of Enoch
    b. 315 - St Hilary of Poitiers - YES
    b. 340 - St Jerome - YES
    b. 344 - St John Chrysostom - NO, sons of Shem
    b. 354 - St Augustine – NO, sons of Shem

    b. 360 – Sulpicius Severus - YES
    b. 360 - St John Cassian - NO, sons of Shem
    b. 374 - St Ambrose – YES
    late 300s - Nemesius of Emesa - YES

    It seems that many of the early Church Fathers considered the Book of Enoch to be part of Scripture, so they interpreted "sons of God" to mean angels as Enoch clearly describes.  As we get to the 300s, more (but not all) Church Fathers were against the angel theory and interpreted it as meaning 'sons of shem'.  It has been theorized that the Book of Enoch was trusted in the early days of the Church (as it was trusted by the jews for centuries) but came to be mistrusted due to many faulty translations that arose and this was the reason it was not included as part of Scripture.  However, Jude does quote the book of Enoch in Scripture, so there is much evidence that, at some point, the book was considered to be inspired.

    14 Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly for all the works of their ungodliness, whereby they have done ungodly, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against God.  (Jude 1, 14:15)

    Conclusion
    It is inconclusive, based on scripture and the Church fathers, if "sons of men" means angels or just holy men who were corrupted by sin.  What is conclusive is that the "giants" spoken of in Genesis, existed both before and after the flood.  And in all cases, these giants were evil and fought those who were keeping the laws of God.  It is also logical that these giants were genetic anomolies, since had their size been normal, there wouldn't be a need to mention them as special.  Were these giants a genetic corruption, as in a PURPOSEFUL genetic corruption?  Were these giants of demonic, astrological descent, having been conceived through demonic means?


    Genesis 6, 12:13

    12 And when God had seen that the earth was corrupted (for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth,) 13 He said to Noe: The end of all flesh is come before me, the earth is filled with iniquity through them, and I will destroy them with the earth.

    Haydock Bible Commentary:  "Its way", being abandoned to the most shameful and unnatural sins. (Liranus)


    Genetic testing/genetic hybrids certainly fall under the category of shameful and unnatural sins.  Angels bearing children by women also does.

    My main question is to wonder if these giants, or human-demonic hybrids, will return during the period of the anti-christ (i.e. maybe in our present times)?  Will lucifer's followers try to explain these hybrids as "aliens" from another planet, instead of the demons they are?  If not, then why do the elites push the idea of aliens?  Why do they push the idea of human hybrids in music (this is relatively new)?  With the advent of genetic engineering (and who knows the heights which such technology has reached except the elites?), with the advent of cloning, with the advent of "artificial intelligence" (could A.I. just be a cover story for demons that run computer systems?), could the devil be preparing society for some sort of demonic manifestation on a large scale?  Only God knows what He will allow, but there is much evidence to support the idea that satan WANTS to do much of the above.

    Has anyone else looked into this topic?

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #1 on: September 20, 2018, 05:55:28 PM »
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  • Thanks for bringing up this topic.

    How could demons have intercourse with humans?
    They have no DNA, no flesh. They are spirits.

    Could women have children without men?
    No, but if women did, then they could only have female offspring unless the DNA was tampered and one X chromosome was shortened to become a Y.

    In the Bible, there is the story of the battle between David, the future king of Israel, and Goliath, who was a huge giant measuring six cubits and a spam (about 9 feet tall).

    Then there is this website: https://guardianlv.com/2014/02/giant-human-skeletons-discovered-in-wisconsin/
    I do not know if this is a fake news site or not.

    Look at the size of the skeletal remains, which measure about the same height as Goliath, about 9 feet tall.
    If these stories are true, why is the mainstream media not mentioning this?

    Quote
    It is unknown why scientists have remained silent about the discovery of 18 giant human skeletons which were found in burial grounds in the state of Wisconsin back in May of 1912. They were in mounds next to Lake Delavan, Wisconsin. The excavation site was supervised by Beloit College. The allegedly massive size of the skeletons and lengthened skulls did not fit into any scientific concept that was in textbooks of the day. They were massive and not believed to be any type of normal human beings.

    These alleged findings were first reported on May 4, 1912. It stated that these skeletons had heights which ranged from 7.6 feet up to 10 feet and the skulls were much bigger than the heads of any type of person who lived inside America today. The story also said the skulls had double rows of teeth, six toes on each foot and six fingers on each hand. It was also reported that these bones were believed to belong to beings that could have even been aliens.

    Since that time, there have been at least 200 digs that claims other “giants” have been discovered. However, such finds have failed to make the news since around the 1950’s for the most part. It seems that the majority of people just do not believe in this type of thing, because it sounds like complete nonsense. However photographs have been taken to record the finds as the picture with this article shows.

    In 2002, National Geographic did a report on 12 skeletons that were supposedly discovered in Greece. They were measured at heights between 12 to 15 feet tall. Was this as well as the find in Wisconsin some kind of joke? People trying to get attention for the press? The truth is no one knows the answer. The find in Wisconsin was only one of many dozens of finds that have been reported in national and local newspapers from all the way back in 1850 moving forward to today. Those were not even the first set of skeleton giants discovered in Wisconsin. ...

    Note: some people are born today with 6 digits on their hands and feet. Normally, these extra digits are surgically removed.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #2 on: September 20, 2018, 06:42:48 PM »
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  • Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #3 on: September 20, 2018, 07:31:16 PM »
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  • The Sons of Men were sinners.

    The Sons of God were those who still had the faith of Adam (the Faith) and were just, until intermarriage.
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #4 on: September 20, 2018, 09:17:15 PM »
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  • That’s the prevailing theory nowadays but you can see from the quotes I posted that many Church Fathers from 100-300 thought it meant angels.  I’d like to know if the Church teaches definitively but I don’t think so. 


    Offline Merry

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #5 on: September 20, 2018, 09:36:46 PM »
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  • Mine from footnotes of 1899 Douay Rheims.
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 10:37:26 PM »
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  • I think either way, if the "sons of God" means angels or the lineage of Seth, that demonic possession and luciferianism had a role in creating the giants.  And if that's the case, then that means that such times could be replicated in our present world.  And even moreso, if we assume that such giants and animal hybrids were created through and by mere men (instead of angels), then it's very likely that as satanism and luciferiansim increases, such genetic craziness could happen.  We certainly have the technology today.

    Here is what Anne Catherine Emmerich says:

    "One of Cains descendants was Tubalcain, (Genesis 4:22.) the originator of numerous arts, and the father of the giants. I have frequently seen that, when the angels fell, a certain number had a moment of repentance and did not in consequence fall as low as the others. Later on, these fallen spirits took up their abode on a high, desolate, and wholly inaccessible mountain whose site at the time of the Deluge became a sea, the Black Sea, I think. They were permitted to exercise their evil influence upon men in proportion as the latter strayed further from God. After the Deluge they disappeared from that region, and were confined to the air. They will not be cast into Hell before the last day.

    I saw Cains descendants becoming more and more godless and sensual. They settled further and further up that mountain ridge where were the fallen spirits. Those spirits took possession of many of the women, ruled them completely, and taught them all Sorts of seductive arts. Their children were very large. They possessed a quickness, an aptitude for everything, and they gave themselves up entirely to the wicked spirits as their instruments. And so arose on this mountain and spread far around, a wicked race which by violence and seduction sought to entangle Seths posterity likewise in their own corrupt ways. Then God declared to Noah His intention to send the Deluge. During the building of the ark, Noah had to suffer terribly from those people."

    So, if all of the above happened before the Flood, what will God allow after the Flood (i.e. in our times)?  Well, if such evil spirits still exist on earth and if some men communicate with such evil spirits (we know some do), and if evil spirits can still possess men if they give themselves to this evil (we know this happens), then it is possible for giants to reappear, just as in the days of Noah.

    So really, at least for me, the question of 'who were the "sons of God"?' is irrelevant, in the sense that for the purpose of re-creating the giants (if God so allows), it is theoretically possible if they were angels or men.  Why does the re-creation of giants matter?  Because I believe that this is why we are "educated" about the idea of aliens and advanced technologies and paranormal activities.  Because it is satan's plan (again, if God allows) to "unveil" such beings so that he can conquer the world, so that he can corrupt human nature (as he tried to do in the days of Noah) and so that he can (try) to eliminate God-fearing men from the face of the earth.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #7 on: September 21, 2018, 05:06:02 AM »
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  • It seems that many of the early Church Fathers considered the Book of Enoch to be part of Scripture, so they interpreted "sons of God" to mean angels as Enoch clearly describes.  As we get to the 300s, more (but not all) Church Fathers were against the angel theory and interpreted it as meaning 'sons of shem'.  It has been theorized that the Book of Enoch was trusted in the early days of the Church (as it was trusted by the jews for centuries) but came to be mistrusted due to many faulty translations that arose and this was the reason it was not included as part of Scripture.  However, Jude does quote the book of Enoch in Scripture, so there is much evidence that, at some point, the book was considered to be inspired.
    Sorry to digress from your topic (which I have no opinion on) but it is a matter of Church dogma.

    There is no such thing as almost canonical.  The Church dogmatically decreed the Canon of Scripture in the fourth session of the Council of Trent (although it had already been set for centuries at this point.)  This list did not include Enoch.  This means that those Church Fathers who considered Enoch inspired, along with everyone else who thought this, were wrong.  Enoch has no authority whatsoever, no matter what was mistakenly believed about it, because the Church has clearly taught that it is not Scripture.

    It looks like you have gotten carried away in your enthusiasm for your theory and so are exaggerating the value of Enoch.  But this passage seems to be second guessing Church teaching, suggesting the omission of Enoch was a mistake and implicitly questioning the Church's authority over Scripture.  Perhaps this section needs to be rephrased to avoid this problem.

    I wrote a more detailed post on Enoch in the Flat Earth section in response to some using it to support their belief in a flat earth: https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/status-of-the-book-of-enoch/msg590836/#msg590836


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #8 on: September 21, 2018, 08:45:35 AM »
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  • Good points.  However, just because a book isn't part of Scripture doesn't mean it wasn't inspired.  It just means, for whatever reason, the Church did not want to include it.  There were many many debates on various books that didn't make it.

    Secondly, the fact that St. Jude quotes the book of Enoch says something, does it not?  One reason the book of Enoch might not have been included is because the manuscripts were tampered with and there were questions on which version was the original.  The Jews at the time of Christ considered this book to be inspired so everyone would've studied it, which is why St Jude referenced it.

    Finally, the phrase "sons of God" has not been definitively taught by the Church as to its meaning, so my arguments that it means angels is not contradicting scripture.  However, in finding the quote from Anne Catherine Emmerich, who says that the "sons of God" means men, she offers a satisfactory explanation for me that demonic possession was involved in the creation of giants, which was my ultimate question.  Anne Catherine's explanation supports my theory that giants could potentially return, so it doesn't matter if the "sons of God" were angels or men.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #9 on: September 21, 2018, 09:34:56 AM »
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  • There is no such thing as almost canonical.  The Church dogmatically decreed the Canon of Scripture in the fourth session of the Council of Trent (although it had already been set for centuries at this point.)  This list did not include Enoch.  This means that those Church Fathers who considered Enoch inspired, along with everyone else who thought this, were wrong.  Enoch has no authority whatsoever, no matter what was mistakenly believed about it, because the Church has clearly taught that it is not Scripture.
    It's not that simple.

    A good analogy: who went to heaven? The Catholic Church declares that certain men (of both sexes) went to heaven -- we call them Saints. But if someone fails to be canonized, does that mean they are roasting in hell? Of course not. Only a select few of those who went straight to heaven are canonized. They are the special ones chosen by God.

    We can quote and hold up these non-canonized saints as examples to imitate: for example, Archbishop Lefebvre, or various priests in the Trad movement (Fr. Bolduc comes to mind). The only restriction is that we can't call them saints, and we can't give them quite the same respect as an actual Saint. They don't have the full weight of the Church's authority vouching for them.

    Why were certain books rejected from the Canon? Sometimes the Church has to say, "I don't know" or maybe a book was corrupted with countless mis-translations and the Church had to cut the book loose, like a diseased limb. That doesn't mean the limb wasn't good (inspired) to begin with. The truth in the book might have become a tangled mess, too difficult to sort out.

    Not every book left out of the Scriptural Canon is equal trash.

    For example, we trust one of those apocrypha to give us the names Anne and Joachim for the parents of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    Some apocrypha are heretical, some are respected but fall short of being taken into the Canon for various reasons.

    So all one can conclude is: you can't quote these books as inspired, or as error-free and authoritative as a book of the Bible would be. You can't claim the Book of Enoch is part of Scripture. But that doesn't mean it's not true! All kinds of non-inspired books contain billions of true facts. Did all the books written by the ancients fall into two simplistic categories? Either inspired by God, or complete pack-o-lies? Of course not.

    Historians glean the truth of history from countless books which aren't part of Scripture.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #10 on: September 21, 2018, 09:54:49 AM »
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  • Good points.  However, just because a book isn't part of Scripture doesn't mean it wasn't inspired.  It just means, for whatever reason, the Church did not want to include it.  There were many many debates on various books that didn't make it.
    Yes, there were a few books that came under debate which the Church ultimately decided not to include in the canon.  There is, however, no basis for claiming that any of these books are inspired.

    When a book isn't part of Scripture it DOES, in effect, mean that it wasn't inspired because the only one with the authority to say that it is Divinely inspired has not done so.  Speculating that a book actually is inspired and the Church nevertheless chose to exclude it from the canon, undermines her authority over Scripture.

    As I understand it, we are obliged to believe that all of Scripture is the inspired and inerrant Word of God.  The Church is the sole authority which decides on what belongs in Scripture.  What she includes is what God wants included.  What she excludes is what God wants excluded.  If a book has been considered for the canon and rejected it has no more authority than if it had never been considered in the first place.


    Secondly, the fact that St. Jude quotes the book of Enoch says something, does it not?  One reason the book of Enoch might not have been included is because the manuscripts were tampered with and there were questions on which version was the original.  The Jews at the time of Christ considered this book to be inspired so everyone would've studied it, which is why St Jude referenced it.
    The phrases from Enoch quoted by St. Jude are part of Scripture and therefore inspired.   This does not impart any Divine authority or inspiration to the rest of Enoch.  The book of Enoch is simply a book by a human author and its contents might or might not be correct.  What Jews at the time of Christ thought is no guide for the Faith.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #11 on: September 21, 2018, 10:10:24 AM »
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  • Why were certain books rejected from the Canon? Sometimes the Church has to say, "I don't know" or maybe a book was corrupted with countless mis-translations and the Church had to cut the book loose, like a diseased limb. That doesn't mean the limb wasn't good (inspired) to begin with. The truth in the book might have become a tangled mess, too difficult to sort out.

    Let's say for the sake of argument that this is what happened to Enoch.  It was originally inspired writing but it became corrupted.  This corruption would continue to be a problem in the current time and it would be difficult to discern what is true in it.  Its original inspiration would have no practical effect on its current state.

    So all one can conclude is: you can't quote these books as inspired, or as error-free and authoritative as a book of the Bible would be. You can't claim the Book of Enoch is part of Scripture. But that doesn't mean it's not true! All kinds of non-inspired books contain billions of true facts. Did all the books written by the ancients fall into two simplistic categories? Either inspired by God, or complete pack-o-lies? Of course not.

    I was not saying anything contrary to this.  I neither said nor implied that Enoch was a complete pack of lies.  I said that it had no authority.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #12 on: September 21, 2018, 11:13:26 AM »
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  • I'm not saying that the Book of Enoch should be trusted and I'm not saying that this or that section is inspired (except for the quote from St Jude).  And I'm not trying to undermine Scripture.  Take a chill pill.  All I'm saying is that 1) many of the Church Fathers believed x, y and z from Enoch, 2) St Jude quotes Enoch, 3) it's not inspired, but neither is it condemned.

    We are allowed to look at Enoch in the same way that we view other prophecies, as long as these do not contradict Dogma or Scripture, we can entertain them, assuming the Church hasn't condemned them.  All of the points which I mention from Enoch DO NOT contradict Scripture, for it they did, then the Church Fathers who quoted Enoch would've been heretics.

    As I pointed out, even if one assumes Enoch is wrong and the interpretation of St Augustine's side is correct, my hypothesis still stands (which is the main point of the post), that the "giants" from Genesis could, in theory, be brought back into existance, in some form or fashion, because they were a corruption of human genetics mixed with demonic possession.  And if this happens, then the luciferians would explain their presence using the alien story.  As weird as it sounds, that's all I'm postulating.  That's the only reason I can come up with for the constant, decades long push to indoctrinate humanity with the possibility of aliens.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #13 on: September 21, 2018, 01:27:04 PM »
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  • Sorry to digress from your topic (which I have no opinion on) but it is a matter of Church dogma.

    There is no such thing as almost canonical.  The Church dogmatically decreed the Canon of Scripture in the fourth session of the Council of Trent (although it had already been set for centuries at this point.)  This list did not include Enoch.  This means that those Church Fathers who considered Enoch inspired, along with everyone else who thought this, were wrong.  Enoch has no authority whatsoever, no matter what was mistakenly believed about it, because the Church has clearly taught that it is not Scripture.

    It looks like you have gotten carried away in your enthusiasm for your theory and so are exaggerating the value of Enoch.  But this passage seems to be second guessing Church teaching, suggesting the omission of Enoch was a mistake and implicitly questioning the Church's authority over Scripture.  Perhaps this section needs to be rephrased to avoid this problem.

    I wrote a more detailed post on Enoch in the Flat Earth section in response to some using it to support their belief in a flat earth: https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/status-of-the-book-of-enoch/msg590836/#msg590836
    I have not come to a conclusion on this issue, but I have a question. How to explain the many times Jesus quoted from the Book of Enoch?
    johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2001/enoch_cal.html
     
     Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5)

     The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

     
     the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22)
     
    the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})

     
     shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29)
     
    those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})

     
     "Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24)

     Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).

     
     Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28)

     I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})

     
     Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24)

     Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})

     
     between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26)

     by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})

     
     In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2)

     In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})

     
     that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36)

     the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})

     
     the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14)

     all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})

     
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Genesis, Enoch, Giants, Aliens, Antichrist
    « Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 01:41:15 PM »
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  • I'm not saying that the Book of Enoch should be trusted and I'm not saying that this or that section is inspired (except for the quote from St Jude).  And I'm not trying to undermine Scripture.  Take a chill pill.  All I'm saying is that 1) many of the Church Fathers believed x, y and z from Enoch, 2) St Jude quotes Enoch, 3) it's not inspired, but neither is it condemned.

    We are allowed to look at Enoch in the same way that we view other prophecies, as long as these do not contradict Dogma or Scripture, we can entertain them, assuming the Church hasn't condemned them.  All of the points which I mention from Enoch DO NOT contradict Scripture, for it they did, then the Church Fathers who quoted Enoch would've been heretics.

    As I pointed out, even if one assumes Enoch is wrong and the interpretation of St Augustine's side is correct, my hypothesis still stands (which is the main point of the post), that the "giants" from Genesis could, in theory, be brought back into existance, in some form or fashion, because they were a corruption of human genetics mixed with demonic possession.  And if this happens, then the luciferians would explain their presence using the alien story.  As weird as it sounds, that's all I'm postulating.  That's the only reason I can come up with for the constant, decades long push to indoctrinate humanity with the possibility of aliens.
    You have nailed it. The bottom line is the falsity of the alien deception.
    Those who have drunk the kool-aid of UFOs/aliens will be blinded to the demonic deception, which includes much more than the demon-giants.
    Check this out:
    https://educate-yourself.org/cn/sergemonast1994transcript.shtml
    https://educate-yourself.org/cn/projectbluebeam25jul05.shtml
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


     

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