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Author Topic: Gender segregation in church  (Read 5357 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Gender segregation in church
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2018, 11:35:29 PM »
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  • Those that need blindfolds should be encouraged to put them on,
    and then to go and play in the traffic. Such scrupulosity makes you a serious contender for the Darwin Awards.

    Just in the last few minutes, you have shown traits of feminism, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, modernism, and evolution:

    1) Feminism: Logically, this is not even a feminist issue, because men are practicing the same segregation as women, but for your sloppy mind, it comes too close to distinguish;

    2) ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity: Addressing me as "sweety."  

    3) Modernism: Your contempt for the law of fthe Church.

    4) Evolution: Your reference to Darwin
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #31 on: September 01, 2018, 11:54:01 PM »
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  • Wait until you see me.  My ugly mug will send you running for the nearest monastery!💩
    Reminds me of this story from the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (Apophthegmata Patrum), which contains many stories related to porneia:
    Quote
    N.52 Somebody recounted: “A brother staying in a coenobion was being sent on coenobion business. There was a devout worldling in a village who used to entertain him as an act of faith whenever he came to the village. The worldling had one daughter recently widowed after living with her husband for two years. As the brother came and went, he was embattled [by temptation] towards her but she, being astute, realised this and took care not to come into his presence. One day, however, her father went into the neighbouring city for some necessity, leaving her alone in the house.  Coming as usual, the brother found her alone and said to her: ‘Where is your father?’ ‘He has gone into the city’, she said to him and the brother began to be troubled by the battle, wanting to assault her. She astutely said to him: ‘Do not be troubled, my father will not return for some time; we are [the only] two here. But I know that you monks do not perform anything without prayer, so get up and pray to God and, whatever he puts into your heart, that we shall do.’ He did not want to [pray] for he was being troubled by the battle. She said to him: ‘Have you ever really known a woman?’ ‘No,’ he said to her, ‘but that is why I want to learn what [a woman] is.’ ‘That is the reason you are being troubled,’ she said to him; ‘you are unaware of the stench of wretched women.’ Wishing to cool his passion, she said: ‘I am having my menses; nobody can approach me or even bear to smell me because of the stench.’ Coming to his senses and disgusted on hearing this and other such things from her, he wept. When she saw that he had come to his senses, she said to him: ‘Look, if I had been persuaded by you, we would already have committed the sin. Then, what kind of face would you have put on to confront my father, or to return to your monastery and hear the choir of those holy ones singing? So, I beg you, be wary in future and do not be willing to lose such hard labour as you have accomplished for a little shameful pleasure and be deprived of eternal benefits.’ Having heard these words from her, the suffering brother reported them to me who am recounting [them], giving thanks to God who, through her astuteness and discretion, had not allowed him to fall definitively.”
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #32 on: September 02, 2018, 08:15:36 AM »
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  • When a woman is in close proximity to a man, she distracts him from everything. A man seeing the face of a woman causes carnal desire which ruins the sanctity of a church.
    Seeing an immodestly dressed woman certainly, but a modestly dressed woman? If you mind immediately jumps to sex whenever you see a pretty face, then that sounds like you have your own issues with temptation you need to deal with. I can only imagine what you're like walking around the street in such a case. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #33 on: September 02, 2018, 08:21:54 AM »
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  • Seeing an immodestly dressed woman certainly, but a modestly dressed woman? If you mind immediately jumps to sex whenever you see a pretty face, then that sounds like you have your own issues with temptation you need to deal with. I can only imagine what you're like walking around the street in such a case.

    St. Charles Borromeo (Apostle of Trent and Secretary of State):

    "The saint insisted on respect and veneration for holy places, to which testify his many decrees regulating behavior in churches. He forbade chattering and walking about, made men sit separately from women, required women to veil their heads and men to wear cloaks, among other things."

    http://www.traditionalcatholic.co/st-charles-borromeo-light-of-the-holy-church-titan-of-counter-reformation/

    Are you suggesting St. Charles Borromeo had issues?

    And thee whole universal Church throughout the ages?

    St. Augustine, Pope St. Pius X, and all the rest??

    PS: As an aside, an excellent article on St. Charles' authority in post-Tridentine church construction: 
    http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/articles/charles_borromeo_and_catholic_tradition 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #34 on: September 02, 2018, 08:36:45 AM »
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  • St. Charles Borromeo (Apostle of Trent and Secretary of State):

    "The saint insisted on respect and veneration for holy places, to which testify his many decrees regulating behavior in churches. He forbade chattering and walking about, made men sit separately from women, required women to veil their heads and men to wear cloaks, among other things."

    http://www.traditionalcatholic.co/st-charles-borromeo-light-of-the-holy-church-titan-of-counter-reformation/

    Are you suggesting St. Charles Borromeo had issues?

    And thee whole universal Church throughout the ages?

    St. Augustine, Pope St. Pius X, and all the rest??

    PS: As an aside, an excellent article on St. Charles' authority in post-Tridentine church construction:
    http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/articles/charles_borromeo_and_catholic_tradition
    There's a difference between being distracted by a beautiful women and thinking of sex. That's all I was getting at there. If you support gender segregation in Churches because you feel men and women sitting among each other is a distraction for one or the other or both parties, then I have no issue with that view. All I was saying was that if glancing at a woman immediately awakens carnal desires as the other poster suggested, that he has extra issues with temptation beyond the ordinary man's inclination to steal glances. 


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #35 on: September 02, 2018, 12:25:00 PM »
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  • Sean, this is a discussion for another era -- like after the Triumph of the I.H.M. perhaps.

    Are you going to segregate by sex in your own basement Resistance chapel? Is that even possible in small Resistance chapels?
    At our Resistance chapel (capacity around 70-80) there are full sized pews -- but a single pew takes up almost the whole width of the 20 foot wide chapel (except for some aisle space on each side). How would you divide men/women in such a situation?

    See my point?

    We're in the catacombs, and here we are talking about a complete non-issue.  The barbarians are trying to bash in the main gate and sack our town, and here we are discussing what color we should paint our chapel walls.

    I'm sure separate bathrooms are ideal as well -- but so many chapels are tiny, and so you have just a single-capacity "family bathroom" (the kind with a lock on the main door) that both men and women must use.

    Normal is for normal times. We are not in normal times.

    I look forward to the day when all we have to worry about is, "Should men and women sit on different sides of the chapel once again?" I just hope I live through the Chastisement and WW3 so I'll be able to see that day ;)
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #36 on: September 02, 2018, 12:49:11 PM »
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  • I find those images provocative. I did not expect something like this in a traditional forum. Ideally a woman would wear dark dresses, white draws too much attention to a woman's face and is worn by prideful women. Head covering should be mandatory for all women at all times to protect men from lust. Regarding women singing in a choir, the fact that Pope St. Pius X banned the practice should be reason enough to forbid it.

    1. The images might have beautiful women in them, but they are not "provocative". The only way they could be a problem is in the sense of "gaze not upon a maiden's beauty" or however that saying goes. Indeed, why look at that which you can't have? It can only be a distraction at best, and trouble or temptation at worst.

    2. Dressing for beauty is not the same as dressing like a whore. The way whores dress, a man's thoughts are base. But if a woman is just very attractive and "pretty" and you nevertheless have issues with sins of thought, then the problem is with YOU. Give up meat, practice mortification, read books by classic spiritual authors, and seek the counsel of a traditional priest.

    3. This is a classic case of "The guy reads a book, and thinks himself an expert." St. Pius X didn't "ban the practice" of women singing in church choirs. Are you aware that most Traditional chapels allow women in their choirs? Don't you think they know more about St. Pius X than some Jєω?

    It just so happens that the confusion is around the term "choir". Choir in the ecclesiastical sense is like "choir stalls" in a monastery or seminary, often close to the altar, where the Schola might sing during Mass, etc. Seminarians take their place in Choir to sing the Divine Office, which is an official public prayer of the Church. Indeed, women are not to be in such places. But a lay "choir" at a parish is a completely different matter.

    I shouldn't blame you; you are just ignorant. I was blessed with attending Liturgy class with Fr. Juan-Carlos Iscara, SSPX in the early 2000's who explained this very point to us.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #37 on: September 02, 2018, 12:54:02 PM »
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  • Sean, this is a discussion for another era -- like after the Triumph of the I.H.M. perhaps.

    Are you going to segregate by sex in your own basement Resistance chapel? Is that even possible in small Resistance chapels?
    At our Resistance chapel (capacity around 70-80) there are full sized pews -- but a single pew takes up almost the whole width of the 20 foot wide chapel (except for some aisle space on each side). How would you divide men/women in such a situation?

    See my point?

    We're in the catacombs, and here we are talking about a complete non-issue.  The barbarians are trying to bash in the main gate and sack our town, and here we are discussing what color we should paint our chapel walls.

    I'm sure separate bathrooms are ideal as well -- but so many chapels are tiny, and so you have just a single-capacity "family bathroom" (the kind with a lock on the main door) that both men and women must use.

    Normal is for normal times. We are not in normal times.

    I look forward to the day when all we have to worry about is, "Should men and women sit on different sides of the chapel once again?" I just hope I live through the Chastisement and WW3 so I'll be able to see that day ;)

    Matthew-

    No, I do not see your point (and apparently a lot of other people don't either).

    If this discussion is "for another era," then so is every other aspect of Church life jettisoned after Vatican II: "Hey, we need to get real, and updated, and get with the times." 

    Heard that before??

    What's so hard about having the women on the left side of my basement chapel, and the men on the right?

    Normal is what was jettisoned at Vatican II, and the Canon Law promulgated in 1983 to implement and enforce it...but that is very far from normal, according to the mind of the Church.

    PS: An interesting observation on the poll results so far, which is relevant to Cathinfo in general: The silent majority see it the traditional/Church's way, while the Americanist liberal activists despise Church law.  Yet it is only the Americanist squawkers (like the ones who call people fαɢɢօts without repurcussion) who are in a kerfuffle about it.  You in the silent majority who refuse to speak up are having your chickens come home to roost: First you were overrun with sedevacantist and Feeneyites.  Now you are overrun with Amereicanist femi-trads.  

    Its your forum (and religion) to defend or lose, and your choice speaks by its silence.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #38 on: September 02, 2018, 12:54:57 PM »
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  • Seeing an immodestly dressed woman certainly, but a modestly dressed woman? If you mind immediately jumps to sex whenever you see a pretty face, then that sounds like you have your own issues with temptation you need to deal with. I can only imagine what you're like walking around the street in such a case.
    This.
    There's a difference between being attracted to a woman's beauty, and lusting after a woman in a carnal manner, like dogs after a piece of meat. 
    When a woman dresses immodestly (I wish I could shout this to every immodestly dressed woman!) she isn't attracting men to HER, or looking "pretty" or "attractive" which she wants so badly -- no, she is attracting men to certain parts of her; she is putting herself on display like a piece of meat. And if she gets a 50% increase in attention, that whole 50% is all the WRONG KIND of attention; men after JUST ONE THING -- a piece of meat.
    How is that beneficial?  It doesn't matter HOW lonely you are, how ugly you feel -- showing off more flesh is not the answer. Respect yourself, women! Believe in yourself that you're not just a piece of meat.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #39 on: September 02, 2018, 12:57:55 PM »
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  • Seeing an immodestly dressed woman certainly, but a modestly dressed woman? If you mind immediately jumps to sex whenever you see a pretty face, then that sounds like you have your own issues with temptation you need to deal with. I can only imagine what you're like walking around the street in such a case.

    Do you think The Fathers, St. Charles, and Pope St. Pius X promulgated laws of segregation to prevent distraction from lewdly dressed women??

    They would have been thrown out on their rears in those days!

    The law reflected an appreciation of fallen human nature, and not the specious pretexts of cloaked tradi-feminism.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #40 on: September 02, 2018, 01:24:10 PM »
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  • When a woman is in close proximity to a man, she distracts him from everything. A man seeing the face of a woman causes carnal desire which ruins the sanctity of a church.

    Well, the only thing I can say is that you rarely see anything but the backs of people's heads, and the women are typically veiled.  Except in the Novus Ordo, you're usually not looking backwards.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #41 on: September 02, 2018, 01:36:12 PM »
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  • Let's take the 1917 Code as our final word on the matter.  Church's mind is that it's indeed "desirable" ... per the reasons stated by the Church Fathers.  Nevertheless, the Church has not mandated this, and Matthew points out the many practical considerations that militate against this ideal.

    As for women in choirs, the issue is not primarily about modesty, but about the notion that singing the LITURGICAL chant is the same thing as a server saying the responses at Mass.  Those are official liturgical prayers, at least in a SOLEMN High Mass, where the priest doesn't even say certain parts but defers to the choir.  Consequently, as a liturgical function, it must be a clerical act, and it should no more be allowed than to have altar girls.  [I'm actually in favor of requiring altar servers to receive minor orders based on the function they have in the liturgy.]  In the Eastern Rite there's a minor order "Cantor" (just "Lector" in Latin Rite) for this very reason.  Those minor orders are not symbolic, but they have become reduced to that, right?  I think that we've lost the original meaning of the Minor Orders.  Now, in the case of a simple Missa Cantata, however, the singing is meant simply for the edification of the congregation and is not strictly liturgical, as the priest continues to recite and the altar boys respond to the OFFICIAL LITURGICAL version.  In that case, the singing of the chant is no different than if the choir were singing "Hail Holy Queen" or some other non-liturgical hymn.

    Offline BTNYC

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #42 on: September 02, 2018, 01:41:08 PM »
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  • Three full pages of seasoned Cathinfo posters nipping at the low quality bait of a (((Brand New Forum Member))).

    Oy vey, goyim. We're supposed to be as innocent as doves, not as wise as them.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #43 on: September 02, 2018, 01:44:42 PM »
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  • Three full pages of seasoned Cathinfo posters nipping at the low quality bait of a (((Brand New Forum Member))).

    Oy vey, goyim. We're supposed to be as innocent as doves, not as wise as them.
    Good point.
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    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Gender segregation in church
    « Reply #44 on: September 02, 2018, 01:46:36 PM »
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  • The name gives it all away. Never met a "Catholic" named Avraham Ben Yehuda and wouldn't trust one, either.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...