Author Topic: funerals novus order and non catholics (Read 4724 times)

Conspiracy_Factist · « **on:** May 20, 2013, 08:21:09 AM »

Since I've resigned myself to never enter into a church that has the new mass I will no doubt be in certain predicaments , for starters all my family , in laws are novus order, I'm telling them now that I won't be able to attend their funerals if they stay in the novus order, as for the wakes I'm not as clear,

for example 1. my brother baptised catholic but doesn't really believe the bible ,i snow agnostic... as of now I see myself going to the wake since technically I would be there to support my parents... would this be considered a non catholic thing to do ?, attend the wake of someone who wasn't truly catholic,

2. the funeral would take place I would simply wait outside the church, and then attend the burial, anyone think I shouldn't even attend the burial in this case?

3. my brother in law married into the greek orthodox, if a greek orth passes away I don't believe I can even attend the wake...correct?

ShepherdofSheep · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2013, 08:41:33 AM »

My understanding is that you may attend the weddings and funerals of non-Catholics, but you may not be an "active participant". I think with funerals especially, it is permissible. But I do not know for certain and I've not been in a position to ask anybody about it.

I could definitely be completely wrong on this, however.

I would also like to know, for sure, what the answer is.

SoldierOfChrist · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2013, 11:56:38 AM »

Quote from: gooch

Since I've resigned myself to never enter into a church that has the new mass I will no doubt be in certain predicaments , for starters all my family , in laws are novus order, I'm telling them now that I won't be able to attend their funerals if they stay in the novus order, as for the wakes I'm not as clear,

for example 1. my brother baptised catholic but doesn't really believe the bible ,i snow agnostic... as of now I see myself going to the wake since technically I would be there to support my parents... would this be considered a non catholic thing to do ?, attend the wake of someone who wasn't truly catholic,

2. the funeral would take place I would simply wait outside the church, and then attend the burial, anyone think I shouldn't even attend the burial in this case?

3. my brother in law married into the greek orthodox, if a greek orth passes away I don't believe I can even attend the wake...correct?

I think you're taking it a little far Gooch. Go to the funerals, wakes, and burials. Just don't go up for Communion. I have been having more success with that approach to dealing with my family and getting them to convert to the traditional Mass, than I would be having if I gave them ultimatums and told them that I would not be attending their funerals. For example, my sister has now informed me that she would like to start attending the TLM as her regular Mass if I can find one near where she lives. She required no prompting. Our example was enough for her.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2013, 11:59:00 AM »

What the above posters said. Go to the funerals and weddings, just refrain from actively participating.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2013, 12:07:07 PM »

Definitely go to the funerals. Someone needs to pray for their soul, and set an example.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2013, 12:31:35 PM »

Quote from: gooch

Since I've resigned myself to never enter into a church that has the new mass I will no doubt be in certain predicaments , for starters all my family , in laws are novus order, I'm telling them now that I won't be able to attend their funerals if they stay in the novus order, as for the wakes I'm not as clear,

for example 1. my brother baptised catholic but doesn't really believe the bible ,i snow agnostic... as of now I see myself going to the wake since technically I would be there to support my parents... would this be considered a non catholic thing to do ?, attend the wake of someone who wasn't truly catholic,

2. the funeral would take place I would simply wait outside the church, and then attend the burial, anyone think I shouldn't even attend the burial in this case?

3. my brother in law married into the greek orthodox, if a greek orth passes away I don't believe I can even attend the wake...correct?

Here's what I personally do.

I go to the viewing of the body, to give support to the rest of the family, but I do not go to the funeral, neither do I go to the burial, because the burial usually immediately follows the funeral.

I can't go any novus ordo. They usually paint every person as a saint, that went immediately to heaven. So I can't participate in such things, especially a "mass" where they routinely give communion to non-catholics approaching their "sacrament."

Charlemagne · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2013, 01:50:40 PM »

Quote from: ServusSpiritusSancti

What the above posters said. Go to the funerals and weddings, just refrain from actively participating.

Good advice. Don't cause scandal by not attending at all. Just don't participate. I'll attend but never kneel or show anything but moderate interest. My parents are getting up in years, so it will be interesting to see what happens when the sad days come. My sister is Nervous Disorder all the way, even an EMHC. :barf: I do plan to ask whatever president of the assembly presides if he plans to canonize either parent during his eulogy. That might seem irreverant, but someone needs to hold these phonies accountable, especially when it concerns my family. I'm very militant in that regard, and I make no apologies.

SoldierOfChrist · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:03:16 PM »

Quote from: Charlemagne

Quote from: ServusSpiritusSancti
What the above posters said. Go to the funerals and weddings, just refrain from actively participating.

Good advice. Don't cause scandal by not attending at all. Just don't participate. I'll attend but never kneel or show anything but moderate interest. My parents are getting up in years, so it will be interesting to see what happens when the sad days come. My sister is Nervous Disorder all the way, even an EMHC. :barf: I do plan to ask whatever president of the assembly presides if he plans to canonize either parent during his eulogy. That might seem irreverant, but someone needs to hold these phonies accountable, especially when it concerns my family. I'm very militant in that regard, and I make no apologies.

It really irritates me when priests/ministers get up and start talking about how so and so is in a better place now. It basically invalidates everything that comes out of their mouths. I need to see two confirmed miracles and a devil's advocate. Otherwise, stick to the liturgy.

Charlemagne · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:13:56 PM »

Quote from: Ryan

Quote from: Charlemagne
Quote from: ServusSpiritusSancti
What the above posters said. Go to the funerals and weddings, just refrain from actively participating.

Good advice. Don't cause scandal by not attending at all. Just don't participate. I'll attend but never kneel or show anything but moderate interest. My parents are getting up in years, so it will be interesting to see what happens when the sad days come. My sister is Nervous Disorder all the way, even an EMHC. :barf: I do plan to ask whatever president of the assembly presides if he plans to canonize either parent during his eulogy. That might seem irreverant, but someone needs to hold these phonies accountable, especially when it concerns my family. I'm very militant in that regard, and I make no apologies.

It really irritates me when priests/ministers get up and start talking about how so and so is in a better place now. It basically invalidates everything that comes out of their mouths. I need to see two confirmed miracles and a devil's advocate. Otherwise, stick to the liturgy.

Now you've done it! I suspect people will arrive shortly to tell you the Devil's Advocate isn't necessary.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2013, 05:40:30 PM »

Quote from: Ryan

Quote from: Charlemagne
Quote from: ServusSpiritusSancti
What the above posters said. Go to the funerals and weddings, just refrain from actively participating.

Good advice. Don't cause scandal by not attending at all. Just don't participate. I'll attend but never kneel or show anything but moderate interest. My parents are getting up in years, so it will be interesting to see what happens when the sad days come. My sister is Nervous Disorder all the way, even an EMHC. :barf: I do plan to ask whatever president of the assembly presides if he plans to canonize either parent during his eulogy. That might seem irreverant, but someone needs to hold these phonies accountable, especially when it concerns my family. I'm very militant in that regard, and I make no apologies.

It really irritates me when priests/ministers get up and start talking about how so and so is in a better place now. It basically invalidates everything that comes out of their mouths. I need to see two confirmed miracles and a devil's advocate. Otherwise, stick to the liturgy.

At least we can rest assured knowing the deceased has attended their last novus ordo service.

I fully concur with the idea to be present for the funeral but not to participate.

Conspiracy_Factist · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2013, 06:11:04 PM »

I think I'm with Parents for truth on this one..I just can't see myself attending a novus order mass. is there anything from popes supporting the attend but don't participate stance? here's some interesting quotes..let me know your thoughts

Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:

Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II John 10).”

SoldierOfChrist · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2013, 06:32:08 PM »

Quote from: gooch

I think I'm with Parents for truth on this one..I just can't see myself attending a novus order mass. is there anything from popes supporting the attend but don't participate stance? here's some interesting quotes..let me know your thoughts

Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:

Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II John 10).”

This is more about respecting the dead and having an ordered relationship with your family than it is about respecting the novus ordo liturgy. Furthermore, according to the conciliar church, the doctrine has not changed, only the pastoral mission and the liturgy. Liturgy is not the same as doctrine, but we shun the new liturgy because it encourages a false interpretation of the doctrine. So this does not really fit the examples above. The new liturgy is dangerous, but they insist on interpreting it in accordance with the old doctrine. So continue professing the old doctrine and they cannot put up an argument against it. Quote all of the old popes and they can't argue with you. On the other hand, protestants openly uphold doctrinal differences with us. I don't have time to get more into this at the moment, but I will later on tonight when I get home if you want a deeper explanation of what I'm saying.

Conspiracy_Factist · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2013, 10:23:54 PM »

Quote from: Ryan

Quote from: gooch
I think I'm with Parents for truth on this one..I just can't see myself attending a novus order mass. is there anything from popes supporting the attend but don't participate stance? here's some interesting quotes..let me know your thoughts

Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:

Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II John 10).”

This is more about respecting the dead and having an ordered relationship with your family than it is about respecting the novus ordo liturgy. Furthermore, according to the conciliar church, the doctrine has not changed, only the pastoral mission and the liturgy. Liturgy is not the same as doctrine, but we shun the new liturgy because it encourages a false interpretation of the doctrine. So this does not really fit the examples above. The new liturgy is dangerous, but they insist on interpreting it in accordance with the old doctrine. So continue professing the old doctrine and they cannot put up an argument against it. Quote all of the old popes and they can't argue with you. On the other hand, protestants openly uphold doctrinal differences with us. I don't have time to get more into this at the moment, but I will later on tonight when I get home if you want a deeper explanation of what I'm saying.

I'm not totally understanding, I'll need a deeper explanation
thanks

SoldierOfChrist · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2013, 11:27:40 PM »

Quote from: gooch

Quote from: Ryan
Quote from: gooch
I think I'm with Parents for truth on this one..I just can't see myself attending a novus order mass. is there anything from popes supporting the attend but don't participate stance? here's some interesting quotes..let me know your thoughts

Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Graves ac diuturnae. Speaking of the “Old Catholic” heretics and schismatics, Pius IX says:

Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (# 4), March 23, 1875: “They [the faithful] should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II John 10).”

This is more about respecting the dead and having an ordered relationship with your family than it is about respecting the novus ordo liturgy. Furthermore, according to the conciliar church, the doctrine has not changed, only the pastoral mission and the liturgy. Liturgy is not the same as doctrine, but we shun the new liturgy because it encourages a false interpretation of the doctrine. So this does not really fit the examples above. The new liturgy is dangerous, but they insist on interpreting it in accordance with the old doctrine. So continue professing the old doctrine and they cannot put up an argument against it. Quote all of the old popes and they can't argue with you. On the other hand, protestants openly uphold doctrinal differences with us. I don't have time to get more into this at the moment, but I will later on tonight when I get home if you want a deeper explanation of what I'm saying.

I'm not totally understanding, I'll need a deeper explanation
thanks

Ok here goes. The first quote is speaking of heretics and schismatics. Do you have any heresies to hold against your parents' novus ordo pastor? You obviously can't accuse him of schism because he has not relinquished devotion to the papacy (I'm assuming). Now I don't know exactly where you stand on Pope Francis et al, but schism occurs when you renounce the papacy itself. Heresy occurs when you speak doctrine contrary to tradition.

As far as doctrine is concerned, saying the novus ordo mass, does not a heretic make. Saying that the dead can get out of hell by repenting after they've been sent there, is a heresy. Saying that Our Lord was not one with The Father, and was not divine, that's a heresy. Saying an erroneous mass which you've been misguided enough to believe is ok, by other misguided people, does not make you a heretic. You can't in all honesty tell me that every single novus ordo priest and bishop is a heretic. If that's the statement that you want to make, please provide the heresies as example.

Stubborn · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2013, 05:49:57 AM »

Quote from: gooch

I think I'm with Parents for truth on this one..I just can't see myself attending a novus order mass. is there anything from popes supporting the attend but don't participate stance? here's some interesting quotes..let me know your thoughts

It *used to be* that attending funeral services for non-Catholics was permitted for social reasons, but that was before this crisis.

Before this crisis, Catholics were not confronted with making a choice as to whether to attend the funeral of their own parent or child at a service which is only called "Catholic" in order to fool the people while being decidedly anti-Catholic at least, and because of what it apes, is sacrilegious at worst.

The sad truth is that there are many trads who find themselves in this extremely difficult situation all the time.

IMO, for whoever is not sure, the first course of action is to speak with your trad priest to see if he can hold a requiem mass (assuming you are able to dictate where the services/burial are held) - if he cannot or will not celebrate the requiem mass, then your pretty much screwed because now you'll most likely end up attending the NOM and suffer through all that goes along with it before, during, and for many years, after it's all over.

OTOH, if the deceased is *not* a parent or child, *because of what it is*, do not attend and you will never regret it.