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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 14317 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2023, 09:36:33 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 13, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
And you can't "context your way out" of the fact that your ecclesiology is heretical.

JST was a heretic.  Noted.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2023, 09:44:44 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on May 13, 2023, 09:21:45 AM
Why did Siscoe and Salza add "according to the Church's human judgment" to JST's quote?

First, you need to specify whether you are accusing them of falsely attributing words to JST, or are disagreeing with their own argument;

If the former, you need to cite the original Latin, and attach a reliable translation to prove it.  If the latter, you need to supply your rebuttal.

In either case, you need to demonstrate what this has to do with JST saying Bellarmine’s position is that ipso facto deposition first required a declaration.
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2023, 10:11:36 AM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 13, 2023, 09:44:44 AM
First, you need to specify whether you are accusing them of falsely attributing words to JST, or are disagreeing with their own argument;

If the former, you need to cite the original Latin, and attach a reliable translation to prove it.  If the latter, you need to supply your rebuttal.

In either case, you need to demonstrate what this has to do with JST saying Bellarmine’s position is that ipso facto deposition first required a declaration.
I already provided the link with the Latin.  The bracketed words are not there.  There aren't even brackets. 

Besides, what would be a "reliable translation"?  You take S&S's word for their translation.  How are you sure they have a "reliable translation"?

Given they don't appear to be on the up and up regarding the above (and until someone can show me those words in JST's original quote..."according to the Church's human judgment" "iuxta humanum Ecclesiae iudicium"), there is no reason to believe that their interpretation of JST's actual words actually agree with their position.

Please provide a "reliable translation" for JST's quotes.  Until you do, there is no reason for any of us to take S&S's translation as gospel.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2023, 10:32:55 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on May 13, 2023, 10:11:36 AM
Given they don't appear to be on the up and up regarding the above (and until someone can show me those words in JST's original quote..."according to the Church's human judgment" "iuxta humanum Ecclesiae iudicium"), there is no reason to believe that their interpretation of JST's actual words actually agree with their position.

Please provide a "reliable translation" for JST's quotes.  Until you do, there is no reason for any of us to take S&S's translation as gospel.

Supposing for the sake of argument that what you say were true, it would still suppose a logical fallacy (ie., that because they have done ‘A’ there, we presume they have done ‘A’ here).  But in the former case, you at least think to have found evidence to support the fallacy, whereas you adduce none in the latter (and the burden is most certainly upon the one calling the quote into question).

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Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2023, 12:01:56 PM »

Quote
Hence, Bellarmine and Suarez are of the opinion that, by the very fact that the Pope is a manifest heretic and declared to be incorrigible, he is deposed [ipso facto] by Christ our Lord without any intermediary, and not by any authority of the Church.


If Christ only deposes a heretical pope immediately after the Church has declared the heretical pope to be incorrigible, and therefore a manifest heretic, it doesn't appear that the Church could ever state that such a man was a heretic prior to this declaration.

In other words, the Church would not be able to say Francis lost his pontificate prior to the declaration in time, such as when he first uttered his heresies publicly in years past, but rather only at the very instant the Church declares him to be a manifest heretic.
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