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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 14370 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2023, 07:24:45 AM »
Quote from: Catholic Knight on May 12, 2023, 07:06:00 AM
I don't agree with you here.  The office is lost at the moment the office holder becomes a manifest heretic.  The Church only enforces the loss of office after the fact.

…except that you still don’t know what manifest means.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2023, 07:26:22 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 12, 2023, 07:15:52 AM
I agree.  John of St. Thomas' quoad se vs. quoad nos distinction has a decidedly phenomenologically tone to it, where out knowledge of reality determines reality.

I liken it to the old question about whether if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to here it, does it make a sound?

There's sound quoad se, the waves that are created in the air, and sound quoad nos, our perception and interpretation of these waves when they hit our ear drum.  Does the fact that we didn't hear it mean that the waves weren't created (and that the tree didn't fall)?  Of course not.

I suspect you're referring to these two books ...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1945658266/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1945658266&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XT7M793/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B07XT7M793&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

Good analogy.  Yes, those are the two volumes of Fr. Paul Kramer that I was referring to.  It would be good for the so-called Resistance priests and faithful to buy both volumes and read them carefully.  Salza and Siscoe, two laymen who have no formal theological learning, have done a job on the so-called Resistance.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2023, 07:30:49 AM »
Quote from: Catholic Knight on May 12, 2023, 07:26:22 AM
Good analogy.  Yes, those are the two volumes of Fr. Paul Kramer that I was referring to.  It would be good for the so-called Resistance priests and faithful to buy both volumes and read them carefully.  Salza and Siscoe, two laymen who have no formal theological learning, have done a job on the so-called Resistance.

Salza has turned on both SSPX and the Resistance as well, applying his false principles, whereby a Joe Biden and Nancy Peℓσѕι remain Catholics in good standing while Archbishop Lefebvre was outside the Church.  If this ad absurdum scenario doesn't expose the fact that the underlying principles are false, then I don't know what would.  But despite the fact that taking S&S to their logical conclusion leads to a condemnation of the Resistance, a number of Resistance types continue to promote S&S, where they want to have their cake and eat it too.  S&S are "right" when they attack SVs but "wrong" when they attack the Resistance / SSPX ... despite the fact that they attack both on the basis of the same core principles.
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2023, 07:33:54 AM »
Quote from: Plenus Venter on May 11, 2023, 08:58:10 PM
You would have us believe that St Robert is a heretic then, and that he contradicts himself. Or perhaps you just do not understand him.
How are you sure that you aren't the one who misunderstands him? 

I think part of the problem is that the Bellarmine quotes are from two separate books, On Councils and On the Supreme Pontiff.  I would argue that the former book generally speaks to Protestants regarding Popes who are still popes.  The latter book is specifically about the Pope and goes into more detail on the topic.  It provides us with the full scope of what happens when/if and how a pope loses office.

The 2 books shouldn't contradict each other, but the context is different, so they may seem to contradict.

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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2023, 07:41:31 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on May 12, 2023, 07:33:54 AM
How are you sure that you aren't the one who misunderstands him?

Because his understanding of St. Bellarmine’s position is not his own, but that of his esteemed contemporary, Cajetan (as well as John of St. Thomas and Journet), and not that of some internet jockey who thinks he knows better than them what St. Bellarmine “REALLY” meant.
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