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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 14379 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2023, 06:46:25 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 09:12:16 PM
St. Robert cited the case of Pope Celestine's declaration regarding Nestorius, that Nestorius had lost his authority from the time he began preaching heresy, several years before he was officially / materially deposed.

Essentially, St. Robert was a sedeprivationist or sedeimpoundist before the terms existed...
Nestorius was a bishop. St Robert's doctrine on deposition of bishops is very clear:

"...if the pastor is a bishop, they (the faithful) cannot depose him and put another in his place. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people, and not that they depose them. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop's councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff" - De Membris Ecclesiae, Lib I De Clericis, Cap 7 (Opera Omnia, Paris: Vives, 1870, pp 428-429).

Add to that the common sense of Cajetan: "... a heretical Pope is not deprived (of the Papacy) by divine or human law... Other bishops if they become heretics are not deprived ipso facto by divine or human law; therefore, neither is the Pope. The conclusion is obvious, because the Pope is not in a worse situation than other bishops" - On the Comparison of the Authority of Pope and Council, Ch XIX

So your example does not help your cause, but rather confirms the fact that the judgement of the Church precedes the deposition. Yet if they are a danger to our faith, we separate from these pastors, as is clearly the teaching of St. Robert, and of Archbishop Lefebvre. Who knows if the Pope (or bishops), after being given admonitions, will not repent and so not be deposed at all.

You imagine that the judgement that these theologians say the Church can make (a Council or a future Pope), you are permitted to make now. But that is a complete and utter fantasy of yours supported by no theology or common sense whatsoever. It would be complete and utter anarchy and the end of the Church.
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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2023, 06:57:14 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 12, 2023, 06:16:13 AM
What's lost in all this is that Bellarmine did not hold any of these opinions about the Pope.  He personally held that a legitimate Pope would never be allowed by God to fall from office.
Yes, he held this position of Pighius that the Pope could not fall into heresy because, as he said, it seemed to be in accordance with the sweet dispositions of Divine Providence (or very similar words that I can't put my hand on right now). But he acknowledged that this was not the common opinion, which is why he examined the subject further.

Bishop Vincent Gasser in his Official Relatio for the Deputatio de Fide at the First Vatican Council explained, quashing rumours, that the Council had no intention whatsoever of confirming this "extreme opinion", nor any other extreme opinion. It is worth reading.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2023, 06:58:42 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 06:21:17 PM
If the Pope remains Pope until he's "judged" by the Church, then the Church is passing judgment on a Pope.

This is a good fundamental point.  By the way, in his two volumes, Fr. Paul Kramer destroys the arguments of John of St. Thomas, which by the way is sadly the position held by the Dominicans of Avrille.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2023, 07:06:00 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 09:12:16 PM
Essentially, St. Robert was a sedeprivationist or sedeimpoundist before the terms existed, acknowledging two separate aspects of office, the formal which is stripped by God the moment one becomes a manfiest heretic, and the office itself which can be stripped later.  In fact, discussion of the material aspects of the office and the formal originate in the thinking of St. Robert.

I don't agree with you here.  The office is lost at the moment the office holder becomes a manifest heretic.  The Church only enforces the loss of office after the fact.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2023, 07:09:32 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 12, 2023, 06:16:13 AM
I agree with Bellarmine's ACTUAL opinion, however, that a true Pope can never fall from office. 

I too hold that a true pope can never become a heretic.  This is the position of Fr. Paul Kramer as well, who eloquently shows why this is the case in his two volumes.
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