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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 14376 times)

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2023, 08:58:10 PM »
Unfortunately, most of the so-called Resistance hold Opinion No. 4 of the 5 opinions expressed by St. Robert Bellarmine, that is, that a pope is a public manifest formal heretic only when the Church officially judges him so.  Opinion No. 4 is heretical on two fronts: 1) that the cardinals and/or bishops can canonically judge a true pope; 2) that the public sin of manifest formal heresy does not per se separate the heretic from the Church.
Are you sure you understand St Robert Bellarmine correctly? How do you reconcile your understanding of his position with this very clear teaching in his study on Councils that has more recently come to light?:

De Ecclesia, Bk I On Councils, Ch XXI On Lutheran Conditions:

"The third condition (my note - the third condition of the Lutherans is that the Roman Pontiff should not summon the Council, nor preside in it...) is unjust, because the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils and preside over them... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not the Supreme Pontiff... the supreme prince, as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge... 

"It happens also that the Pope in a Council is not only the judge, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops who, if they could convict him of heresy, they could also judge and depose him even against his will. Therefore, the heretics have nothing: why would they complain if the Roman Pontiff presides at a Council before he were condemned?

"The sixth condition (my note - the sixth condition of the Lutherans required to celebrate a Council is that the Roman Pontiff would absolve all prelates from the oath of fidelity, in which they have been bound) is unjust and impertinent. Unjust, because inferiors ought not be free from the obedience to superior, unless first he were legitimately deposed or declared not to be a superior... it is impertinent, because that oath does not take away the freedom of the Bishops, which is necessary in Councils, for they swear that they will be obedient to the Supreme Pontiff, which is understood as long as he is Pope, and provided he commands these things which, according to God and the sacred canons he can command; but they do not swear that they are not going to say what they think in the Council, or that they are not going to depose him if they were to clearly prove that he is a heretic."

You would have us believe that St Robert is a heretic then, and that he contradicts himself. Or perhaps you just do not understand him. 


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2023, 09:12:16 PM »
as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge...

Just little bit of reading comprehension goes a long way.  He is judged to HAVE been deprived of his rule.  They're judging something that had already taken place.

No, St. Robert Bellarmine did not hold Cajetan's opinion :facepalm: ... unless he was a total idiot and somehow didn't realize that Cajetan held the same opinion he did.

St. Robert cited the case of Pope Celestine's declaration regarding Nestorius, that Nestorius had lost his authority from the time he began preaching heresy, several years before he was officially / materially deposed.

Essentially, St. Robert was a sedeprivationist or sedeimpoundist before the terms existed, acknowledging two separate aspects of office, the formal which is stripped by God the moment one becomes a manfiest heretic, and the office itself which can be stripped later.  In fact, discussion of the material aspects of the office and the formal originate in the thinking of St. Robert.

Unfortunately, small minds that are incapable of grasping these distinctions somehow try to pretend, laughably, that Bellarmine held Cajetan's opinion.


Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2023, 09:23:09 PM »
Let St Robert, quoted above, set Ladislaus straight on the matter. Or is the question of hubris, that you mentioned, involved here?

Quite a bit more than hubris, I’m afraid.

36k posts, and never an error, mistake, or retraction.  

They got a name for that kind of self-love:

Narcissism.

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2023, 09:38:41 PM »
I hope you can, in all humility, now appreciate from the theologians quoted above, and Archbishop Lefebvre speaking on Pope Honorius, that this is by no means the simple truth of the matter. We are not free to select the theological hypothesis that accords with our ideas and impose it upon the Church - unless of course we are the Pope adjudicating infallibly.

Well, PV, I’d say your hopes for his humility are in vain.

In his mind, he has 36k impeccable posts, which disagreeing with (much less refuting) results in anathemas.

If anyone would reflect on that a bit, they would realize that discussion is futile.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2023, 09:39:31 PM »
Quite a bit more than hubris, I’m afraid.

36k posts, and never an error, mistake, or retraction. 

They got a name for that kind of self-love:

Narcissism.

Yeah, right.  I just retracted / corrected an error I made in a post just yesterday or the day before.  You on the other hand haven't even refused to retract your calling me a sodomite when you were having yet another meltdown, and this is what you resort to every time you're exposed and have no actual arguments left.