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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 12063 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2023, 10:27:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on May 12, 2023, 10:24:11 AM
    Ok.

    I'm not stepping into the "what Bellarmine really meant" debate.

    Me either.  I'm just pretty confident that whatever it was, JST understood it properly, vs internet jockeys who make him say something else.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #76 on: May 12, 2023, 10:33:26 AM »
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    • Nah, neither of you are "stepping in" because you've got nothing to back your ridiculous and absurd opinion, one out of context lifted from John of St. Thomas notwithstanding.

    It's been adequately demonstrated from Bellarmine himself that when he does write about the Church judging a pope it's only under the supposition that he has already been judged by God and removed from office ipso facto on account of manifest heresy.

    There's no doubt but that Jorge Bergoglio is a manifest heretic.  Period.  He's verbatim rejected defined Catholic dogmas, and has done so repeatedly, pertinaciously, has joked about his opinions being possibly heretical, and has been rebuked regarding several of them ... and yet he persists.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #77 on: May 12, 2023, 10:47:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 12, 2023, 10:33:26 AM
    Nah, neither of you are "stepping in" because you've got nothing to back your ridiculous and absurd opinion, one out of context lifted from John of St. Thomas notwithstanding.

    It's been adequately demonstrated from Bellarmine himself that when he does write about the Church judging a pope it's only under the supposition that he has already been judged by God and removed from office ipso facto on account of manifest heresy.

    There's no doubt but that Jorge Bergoglio is a manifest heretic.  Period.  He's verbatim rejected defined Catholic dogmas, and has done so repeatedly, pertinaciously, has joked about his opinions being possibly heretical, and has been rebuked regarding several of them ... and yet he persists.

    I've never quoted JST, and didn't express any opinion, much less a "ridiculous and absurd opinion."

    Get a handle. 
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #78 on: May 12, 2023, 10:50:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 12, 2023, 10:33:26 AM
    Nah, neither of you are "stepping in" because you've got nothing to back your ridiculous and absurd opinion, one out of context lifted from John of St. Thomas notwithstanding.

    It's been adequately demonstrated from Bellarmine himself that when he does write about the Church judging a pope it's only under the supposition that he has already been judged by God and removed from office ipso facto on account of manifest heresy.

    There's no doubt but that Jorge Bergoglio is a manifest heretic.  Period.  He's verbatim rejected defined Catholic dogmas, and has done so repeatedly, pertinaciously, has joked about his opinions being possibly heretical, and has been rebuked regarding several of them ... and yet he persists.
    Exactly.  He speaks for himself.  No one else needs to explain what he "really meant". 

    It used to be that the non-sedes would just say that he has an opinion as does Cajetan etal.  Neither opinion is infallible.  OK.  I get that argument. 

    But now they are questioning what his opinion "really was" and that it actually is the same as the others'.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #79 on: May 12, 2023, 11:19:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 12, 2023, 10:33:26 AM
    Nah, neither of you are "stepping in" because you've got nothing to back your ridiculous and absurd opinion, one out of context lifted from John of St. Thomas notwithstanding.

    It's been adequately demonstrated from Bellarmine himself that when he does write about the Church judging a pope it's only under the supposition that he has already been judged by God and removed from office ipso facto on account of manifest heresy.

    There's no doubt but that Jorge Bergoglio is a manifest heretic.  Period.  He's verbatim rejected defined Catholic dogmas, and has done so repeatedly, pertinaciously, has joked about his opinions being possibly heretical, and has been rebuked regarding several of them ... and yet he persists.

    You do realize how stupid this makes you look, right?

    You're saying JST didn’t understand Bellarmine’s argument, but **YOU DO**

    Reflect on that.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #80 on: May 12, 2023, 11:26:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on May 12, 2023, 10:50:00 AM
    Exactly.  He speaks for himself.  No one else needs to explain what he "really meant". 

    Patently false, or there’d be no disagreement on what Bellarmine means!

    The hubris is manifested by preferring your own defective understanding of what Bellarmine’s position is, to that of one reknowned to be vastly more knowledgeable (JST).
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #81 on: May 12, 2023, 11:28:31 AM »
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    • Fr. Paul Kramer holds that John of St. Thomas misrepresented St. Robert Bellarmine's position:

    ".....while John of St. Thomas is correct insofar as he says Suárez maintained that if 'a pope is a manifest heretic & declared incorrigible, he is deposed immediately by Christ the Lord, and not by any authority in the Church,' he erred by attributing this opinion to Bellarmine, since that is not what Bellarmine taught. Bellarmine says nothing anywhere about any need for the pope to be declared incorrigible for him to fall from office; but rather, he says that once the pope manifests himself to be pertinacious, he immediately falls from office entirely by himself ipso facto; and not mediately by the dispositive agency of anyone else’s declaration, but 'by himself', and 'without another external agent' (sine alia vi externa). John of St. Thomas was guilty of sloppy scholarship in his treatment of Bellarmine here....."

    Kramer, Paul. On the true and the false pope: The case against Bergoglio (p. 142). Gondolin Press. Kindle Edition.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #82 on: May 12, 2023, 11:31:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2023, 11:19:23 AM
    You do realize how stupid this makes you look, right?

    You're saying JST didn’t understand Bellarmine’s argument, but **YOU DO**

    Reflect on that.

    Sean,

    Take JST out of the picture. Say you were to read Saint Robert’s writings on there own, would you concede that Lad and Vermont (and I) would then be interpreting SRB’s writings correctly?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #83 on: May 12, 2023, 11:37:11 AM »
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    • Russian Patriarch Kirill will never associate himself with this ding dong Francis.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #84 on: May 12, 2023, 11:46:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on May 12, 2023, 11:31:44 AM
    Sean,

    Take JST out of the picture. Say you were to read Saint Robert’s writings on there own, would you concede that Lad and Vermont (and I) would then be interpreting SRB’s writings correctly?

    Impossible: My Latin is not good enough to read Bellarmine, and consequently, I would always have to rely upon a translator (bringing to mind the old caveat "a tranlator is a traitor).

    But that aside, I would not concede the point, since it would imply that your, Lad's, and 2V's understanding of Bellarmine's position was better than that of JST (which is ridiculous).  The only thing which would make me reconsider that JST has not properly understood Bellarmine's position, would be an equally eminant theologian saying as much.

    When you can quote Billuart, Billot, or someone of that stature who lived after JST, saying the latter did not actually understand what Bellarmine's position was, ten I will reconsider.

    But not before.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #85 on: May 12, 2023, 12:08:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2023, 11:46:48 AM
    Impossible: My Latin is not good enough to read Bellarmine, and consequently, I would always have to rely upon a translator (bringing to mind the old caveat "a tranlator is a traitor).



    But aren’t you relying on a translator for JST?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #86 on: May 12, 2023, 12:12:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2023, 11:46:48 AM
    Impossible: My Latin is not good enough to read Bellarmine, and consequently, I would always have to rely upon a translator (bringing to mind the old caveat "a tranlator is a traitor).

    But that aside, I would not concede the point, since it would imply that your, Lad's, and 2V's understanding of Bellarmine's position was better than that of JST (which is ridiculous).  The only thing which would make me reconsider that JST has not properly understood Bellarmine's position, would be an equally eminant theologian saying as much.

    When you can quote Billuart, Billot, or someone of that stature who lived after JST, saying the latter did not actually understand what Bellarmine's position was, ten I will reconsider.

    But not before.
    How do you know that Siscoe and Salza's translation of JST is accurate? You did quote it from "True or False Pope".
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    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #87 on: May 12, 2023, 12:12:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat on May 12, 2023, 11:37:11 AM
    Russian Patriarch Kirill will never associate himself with this ding dong Francis.

    Whoops !! I was wrong. :( :'(






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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #88 on: May 12, 2023, 12:25:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2023, 11:26:37 AM
    Patently false, or there’d be no disagreement on what Bellarmine means!

    The hubris is manifested by preferring your own defective understanding of what Bellarmine’s position is, to that of one reknowned to be vastly more knowledgeable (JST).
    I don't recall such a disagreement between sedes and non-sedes ...at least not here.  Typically the argument would go along the lines of..."well, Bellarmine has one opinion and other theologians have another.  Therefore, you can't dogmatize Bellarmine's as the only answer".  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #89 on: May 12, 2023, 12:48:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on May 12, 2023, 12:25:21 PM
    I don't recall such a disagreement between sedes and non-sedes ...at least not here.  Typically the argument would go along the lines of..."well, Bellarmine has one opinion and other theologians have another.  Therefore, you can't dogmatize Bellarmine's as the only answer". 

    OK, so if we all agree with JST that Bellarmine’s position was that a declaration must precede a deposition, then I guess we have no argument.
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