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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 14288 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #175 on: May 14, 2023, 10:56:25 AM »
What's even worse is that I've shown you several ways that you could avoid the "evil" that is sedevacantism in a non-heretical way, such as how Archbishop Lefebvre articulated the situation or in adopting Father Chazal's position.  I even started a thread (that got bumped by someone recently) asking why you guys don't accept Father Chazal's articulation of the situation in the Church.  By either going with +Lefebvre's articulation or Father Chazal's you can avoid this heresy and stop attributing corruption to the Church's Magisterium and to the Mass.  But you obstinately and pertinaciously refuse to consider those options, continuing to insist on your heretical slandering of the Holy Catholic Church.
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Offline Catholic Knight

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #176 on: May 14, 2023, 04:56:18 PM »
"The fourth view, with Suarez, Cajetan, and others, argues that a pope is not, even upon the fact of manifest heresy, deposed, but that he can be and must be deposed upon a sentence (at least a declaratory one) of crime. 'This view in my judgment cannot be defended' as Bellarmine teaches.

"Finally there is the fifth view of Bellarmine which was expressed at the outset in the assertion [above] and which is rightly defended by Tanner and others as being more approved and more common. For he who is no longer a member of the body of the Church, that is, of the Church as a visible body, cannot be the head of the universal Church. But a pope who falls into public heresy would by that fact cease to be a member of the Church; therefore he would also, upon that fact, cease to be the head of Church.

"So, a publicly heretical pope, who by the mandate of Christ and of the Apostle should be avoided because of danger to the Church, must be deprived of his power, as nearly everyone admits. But he cannot be deprived of his power by a merely declaratory sentence. 

 "For every judicial sentence of privation supposes a superior jurisdiction over him against whom the sentence is laid. But a general council, in the opinion of adversaries, does not have a higher jurisdiction than does a heretical pope. For he, by their supposition, before the declaratory sentence of a general council, retains his papal jurisdiction; therefore a general council cannot pass a declaratory sentence by which a Roman Pontiff is actually deprived of his power; for that would be a sentence laid by an inferior against the true Roman Pontiff.

"In sum, it needs to be said clearly that a [publicly] heretical Roman Pontiff loses his power upon the very fact. Meanwhile a declaratory criminal sentence, although it is merely declaratory, should not be disregarded, for it brings it about, not that a pope is 'judged' to be a heretic, but rather, that he is shown to have been found heretical, that is, a general council declares the fact of the crime by which a pope has separated himself from the Church and has lost his rank.

"I know of no author coming after Wernz who disputes this analysis. See, e.g., Ayrinhac, CONSTITUTION (1930) 33; Sipos, ENCHIRIDION (1954) 156; Regatillo, INSTITUTIONES I (1961) 299; Palazzini, DMC III (1966) 573; and Wrenn (2001) above. As for the lack of detailed canonical examination of the mechanics for assessing possible papal heresy, Cocchi, COMMENTARIUM II/2 (1931) n. 155, ascribes it to the fact that law provides for common cases and adapts for rarer; may I say again, heretical popes are about as rare as rare can be and yet still be.

"In sum, and while additional important points could be offered on this matter, in the view of modern canonists from Wernz to Wrenn, however remote is the possibility of a pope actually falling into heresy and however difficult it might be to determine whether a pope has so fallen, such a catastrophe, Deus vetet, would result in the loss of papal office."

https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2016/12/16/a-canonical-primer-on-popes-and-heresy/

I am glad Dr. Edward Peters gets it.
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Offline Gondophares

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #177 on: October 02, 2023, 02:34:15 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on May 13, 2023, 01:03:53 PM
Siscoe and Salza's translation cannot be considered "reliable" since they took the liberty to add their own words to the quote to help push their agenda.  And they made a point of not bolding that section.  Pretty sneaky.  At the very least it places doubt on what they assert JST meant in his quote.

To show this was no isolated incident, here is another example where they weren't "reliable" in order to push their agenda.  In this case they omitted important phrases: 

Scratch That: How Salza & Siscoe misrepresent Fr. Laymann in their Crusade against Sedevacantism – Novus Ordo Watch

Not the only instance, they mistranslated Hervé in V1 para 500 to say that 'only a Council has the right to declare deposed' or similar when the original Latin has it 'the Church only (as in merely) has the right' and the context makes it clear Canon Herve was refuting the Conciliarist heresy. I fear for Mr. Johnson lest his excessive and misplaced confidence in them leads him to hell with the Mason and lawyer.
Original :

b) Non ratione haereseos: Nam posito quod, ut persona privata, heretieus publice quidem, nolorie et contumaciter fieri possit
Pontifex, -—— quod generatim negant theologi, suavem Christi
Providentiam erga Ecclesiam et promissiones ejus divinas spec-
tantes (4) — ipso facio hereseos a pontificali potestate excideret, « dum propria voluniale transferrelur exira corpus Ecclesise, factus
infidelis ». Tunc Concilium [Ecclesia] jus tantum haberet sedem vacantem declarandi, ut ad electionem tuto procedere possent
consueti electores (5).
Sorry for the OCR errors but you can get it on archive.org and search the words. 

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Offline Gondophares

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #178 on: October 02, 2023, 02:41:34 AM »
Quote from: Gondophares on October 02, 2023, 02:34:15 AM
Not the only instance, they mistranslated Hervé in V1 para 500 to say that 'only a Council has the right to declare deposed' or similar when the original Latin has it 'the Church only (as in merely) has the right' and the context makes it clear Canon Herve was refuting the Conciliarist heresy. I fear for Mr. Johnson lest his excessive and misplaced confidence in them leads him to hell with the Mason and lawyer.
Original :

b) Non ratione haereseos: Nam posito quod, ut persona privata, heretieus publice quidem, nolorie et contumaciter fieri possit
Pontifex, -—— quod generatim negant theologi, suavem Christi
Providentiam erga Ecclesiam et promissiones ejus divinas spec-
tantes (4) — ipso facio hereseos a pontificali potestate excideret, « dum propria voluniale transferrelur exira corpus Ecclesise, factus
infidelis ». Tunc Concilium [Ecclesia] jus tantum haberet sedem vacantem declarandi, ut ad electionem tuto procedere possent
consueti electores (5).
Sorry for the OCR errors but you can get it on archive.org and search the words.
Not deposed since impossible, but declare the See vacant 
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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #179 on: October 02, 2023, 01:30:22 PM »
It’s vacant of the Catholic Faith.  Therefore, there is a gospel of mortal sin being preached.  The synod is about voting for mortal sin.  

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