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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 14323 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #170 on: May 14, 2023, 07:35:14 AM »
St. Robert Bellarmine is blatantly and explicitly clear that there can be no judgment or sentence passed on a pope who has not already been removed from office by divine action.  S&S position is utterly absurd and ludicrous.

Where the argument must be made is in determining what constitutes manifest heresy and incorrigibility / pertinacity.  Is a juridical sentence or judgment required to establish pertinacity?  Answer of course is no, but this is the only thing that can be debated.  To continue babbling that St. Robert believes the a pope is separated from office ministerially by some official judgment of the Church is utterly absurd when he clearly says the exact opposite.

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2023, 07:41:09 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
St. Robert Bellarmine is blatantly and explicitly clear that there can be no judgment or sentence passed on a pope who has not already been removed from office by divine action.  S&S position is utterly absurd and ludicrous.

Where the argument must be made is in determining what constitutes manifest heresy and incorrigibility / pertinacity.  Is a juridical sentence or judgment required to establish pertinacity?  Answer of course is no, but this is the only thing that can be debated.  To continue babbling that St. Robert believes the a pope is separated from office ministerially by some official judgment of the Church is utterly absurd when he clearly says the exact opposite.

Leaving aside that your first paragraph is rejected by John of St. Thomas’s description of St. Bellarmine’s actual position, you can add Billuart to the list of those who have no problem issuing a declaration against a pope (which also refutes your second paragraph):

Quote
“According to the more common opinion, Christ, by a particular providence, for the common good and the tranquility of the Church, continues to give jurisdiction to an even manifestly heretical pontiff until such time as he be declared a manifest heretic by the Church.”



Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2023, 07:48:17 AM »
St. Robert Bellarmine is blatantly and explicitly clear that there can be no judgment or sentence passed on a pope who has not already been removed from office by divine action.  S&S position is utterly absurd and ludicrous.

Where the argument must be made is in determining what constitutes manifest heresy and incorrigibility / pertinacity.  Is a juridical sentence or judgment required to establish pertinacity?  Answer of course is no, but this is the only thing that can be debated.  To continue babbling that St. Robert believes the a pope is separated from office ministerially by some official judgment of the Church is utterly absurd when he clearly says the exact opposite.
Do you mean like here:

"...the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils and preside over them... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not the Supreme Pontiff... the supreme prince, as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge...""

"It happens also that the Pope in a Council is not only the judge, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops who, if they could convict him of heresy, they could also judge and depose him even against his will. Therefore, the heretics have nothing: why would they complain if the Roman Pontiff presides at a Council before he were condemned?



Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #173 on: May 14, 2023, 07:50:40 AM »
Do you mean like here:

"...the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of his right to summon Councils and preside over them... unless he were first convicted by the legitimate judgement of a Council and is not the Supreme Pontiff... the supreme prince, as long as he is not declared or judged to have legitimately been deprived of his rule, is always the supreme judge...""

"It happens also that the Pope in a Council is not only the judge, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops who, if they could convict him of heresy, they could also judge and depose him even against his will. Therefore, the heretics have nothing: why would they complain if the Roman Pontiff presides at a Council before he were condemned?


Sorry, I forgot, you said he has already been judged and condemned... by you! Exactly what St Robert had in mind, I'm sure.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #174 on: May 14, 2023, 10:41:33 AM »
Clever use of ellipses and taking quotes of context.  You're just a bunch of abject liars.  St. Robert states explicitly in his articulation of the 5th opinion that the only way a Council can judge a pope is because he's already been judged by God.  You're utterly ridiculous.

What's at issue is whether the establishment of pertinacity requires some kind of formal process or judgment by the Church.  So if you want to argue that, go for it.  But to assert that Bellarmine holds that a Pope is not removed from office until he's judged is the exact opposite of Bellarmine's opinion and nothing but a shameless lie.  You're really pathetic.

Of course, this is a total distraction by the heretics Venter and Johnson ... because all this discussion is about whether the Pope can become a heretic as private person.  For you to assert that a Pope could teach heresy and error to the Church, could corrupt the Magisterium, and corrupt the Mass ... Bellarmine would be having your heretical posteriors burned at the stake.  Your're both shameless heretics and keep hiding behind what's ultimately an irrelevant discussion of personal heresy.  This isn't a question of Jorge making heretical statements on his plane or in interviews with Scalfari.  This is about the corruption of the Church's Magisterium and Public Worship.  Your position on that is heretical.  Trent even issued an explicit anathema against the latter proposition.  You've been adequately correct on the matter, and yet you remain pertinacious and obstinate; consequently, you are both manifest heretics.