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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 14335 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2023, 08:47:52 AM »
all of which are refuted by S/S

:laugh1: 

S/S also say that you're not a Catholic ... based on the same principles.

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #146 on: May 13, 2023, 08:53:19 AM »
Looking at the JST quote in context:

Of the two intermediate opinions, the one holds that the pope does not recognize anyone as superior absolutely, but only in the case of heresy.  The other holds that there is no power on earth that is superior to the Pope, whether absolutely or in the case of heresy; but there is a ministerial power.....
....
Of these two [intermediate] explanations, Azorius (2, tom. 2, cap. 7) adopts the first, which holds that the Church is superior to the Pope in the case of heresy; while Cajetan adopts the latter and treats of it at length.  Bellarmine, however, reports his opinion and attacks it in his work de Romano pontifice, bk. 2, ch. 30, objecting especially to these two points: namely, that Cajetan says that the Pope who is a manifest heretic [according to the Church's human judgment] is not ipso facto deposed; and also that the Church deposes the Pope in a real and authoritative manner.  Suarez also, in the disputation that we have frequently cited, sect. 6, num. 7, attacks Cajetan for saying that, in the case of heresy, the Church is superior to the Pope, not insofar as he is Pope, but insofar as he is a private individual. Cajetan, however, did not say this; he only said that, even in the case of heresy, the Church is not absolutely superior to the Pope, but instead is superior to the bond between the papacy and the person, dissolving it in the same way that she forged it at his election; and this power of the Church is ministerial, for only Christ our Lord is superior to the Pope without qualification.  Hence, Bellarmine and Suarez are of the opinion that, by the very fact that the Pope is a manifest heretic and declared to be incorrigible, he is deposed [ipso facto] by Christ our Lord without any intermediary, and not by any authority of the Church.

Why didn't Salza and Siscoe bold JST's black bolded comments regarding Bellarmine as I did here? And why did they add the bracketed comment "[according to the Church's human judgment]"? They do not appear to be in JST's original comments.


John Of St. Thomas On The Pope Heretic Question : John of St. Thomas : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive



Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2023, 09:13:31 AM »
Looking at the JST quote in context:

Of the two intermediate opinions, the one holds that the pope does not recognize anyone as superior absolutely, but only in the case of heresy.  The other holds that there is no power on earth that is superior to the Pope, whether absolutely or in the case of heresy; but there is a ministerial power.....
....
Of these two [intermediate] explanations, Azorius (2, tom. 2, cap. 7) adopts the first, which holds that the Church is superior to the Pope in the case of heresy; while Cajetan adopts the latter and treats of it at length.  Bellarmine, however, reports his opinion and attacks it in his work de Romano pontifice, bk. 2, ch. 30, objecting especially to these two points: namely, that Cajetan says that the Pope who is a manifest heretic [according to the Church's human judgment] is not ipso facto deposed; and also that the Church deposes the Pope in a real and authoritative manner.  Suarez also, in the disputation that we have frequently cited, sect. 6, num. 7, attacks Cajetan for saying that, in the case of heresy, the Church is superior to the Pope, not insofar as he is Pope, but insofar as he is a private individual. Cajetan, however, did not say this; he only said that, even in the case of heresy, the Church is not absolutely superior to the Pope, but instead is superior to the bond between the papacy and the person, dissolving it in the same way that she forged it at his election; and this power of the Church is ministerial, for only Christ our Lord is superior to the Pope without qualification.  Hence, Bellarmine and Suarez are of the opinion that, by the very fact that the Pope is a manifest heretic and declared to be incorrigible, he is deposed [ipso facto] by Christ our Lord without any intermediary, and not by any authority of the Church.

Why didn't Salza and Siscoe bold JST's black bolded comments regarding Bellarmine as I did here? And why did they add the bracketed comment "[according to the Church's human judgment]"? They do not appear to be in JST's original comments.


John Of St. Thomas On The Pope Heretic Question : John of St. Thomas : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The JST quote I provided on p.2 shows quite a bit more context than the out of context context you provided here😉

You won’t be able to context your way out of it.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #148 on: May 13, 2023, 09:19:41 AM »
You won’t be able to context your way out of it.

And you can't "context your way out" of the fact that your ecclesiology is heretical.

Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« Reply #149 on: May 13, 2023, 09:21:45 AM »
The JST quote I provided on p.2 shows quite a bit more context than the out of context context you provided here😉

You won’t be able to context your way out of it.
Why did Siscoe and Salza add "according to the Church's human judgment" to JST's quote?