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Author Topic: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology  (Read 10013 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
« on: May 11, 2023, 09:07:16 AM »
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    • Francis Includes Heretics and Schismatics in Roman Martyrology




    Francis held a May 11 prayer with the Coptic Pope Tawadros in the Vatican. He announced that 21 Copts beheaded in 2015 in Libya would henceforth be included in the Roman (!) Martyrology as "Catholic" saints.

    This absurdity is for Francis "a sign of spiritual communion". In the Novus Ordo, the Roman Martyrology is not used anymore.

    Francis admitted that the Tawadros Copts are not part of Christ’s Church as he expressed his hope that “the day is drawing near when we will be one in Christ.”

    Copts are Monophysites who claim in their prayers that Christ had only "one nature", whereas in reality Christ unites in Himself both, the divine and the human nature.

    https://gloria.tv/post/RU3yZpsWvdXN1zgCP8ubnUnw3 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #1 on: May 11, 2023, 09:23:37 AM »
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    • But wait, there’s more (and this only a couple weeks after “accidentally” allowing an Anglican liturgy after a “miscommunication”)!


    Pope Francis hosts Coptic Patriarch at Vatican, approves schismatic liturgy in papal basilica
    Coptic Patriarch Tawadros II joined Pope Francis in giving a blessing to crowds in St. Peter's Square after the weekly audience.
    Featured ImagePope Francis and Coptic Patriarch Tawadros II, May 10, 2023Vatican News/Screenshot


    Michael Haynes
    Comments 
    17
    Wed May 10, 2023 - 10:04 am EDT

    [color=var(--sk-text-color)][color=var(--sk-text-color)]Listen to this article


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    VATICAN CITY (LifeSiteNews) — The head of the Coptic Orthodox Church, Pope Tawadros II, joined Pope Francis in leading the general audience at the Vatican today, as part of an ecuмenical visit this week during which he will also offer a liturgy in the Papal Archbasilica of St. John Lateran.
    From May 9 through 14, Tawadros II of Alexandria is making a visit to Rome, which is particularly marked by historic meetings with Pope Francis. [/color]


    On May 10, the Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church made history by making an address at the weekly general audience which Pope Francis holds at the Vatican. He joined Francis on the platform in St. Peter’s Square, where two seats were positioned such that they might jointly speak to the crowds in the square.
    Addressing Pope Francis as “beloved brother, His Holiness Pope Francis,” Tawadros said “Christ is risen, He is truly risen!” It is believed to be the first address by a non-Catholic church leader at the papal audience.
    Tawadros’ visit marks 10 years since he was welcomed by Pope Francis to the Vatican in 2013, a day which he suggested the two leaders annually mark as one of “Coptic-Catholic Friendship.”
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #2 on: May 11, 2023, 09:29:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 11, 2023, 09:07:16 AM
    Francis held a May 11 prayer with the Coptic Pope Tawadros in the Vatican. He announced that 21 Copts beheaded in 2015 in Libya would henceforth be included in the Roman (!) Martyrology as "Catholic" saints.

    He's said this before.  It's one of his most blatant heresies, and he's clearly pertinacious.  Council of Florence dogmatically defined that schismatics cannot be saved even if they shed their blood in the name of Christ.

    Council of Florence
    Quote
    [The Sacrosanct Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

    This is blatant manifest heresy, and there's no gymnastics R&R can do to excuse him of it.

    Whether you want to say he's impounded (as Father Chazal does) or a non-pope simpliciter or in material possession of the Holy See, Jorge Bergoglio is not a Catholic.  He's always denied EENS dogma, but this is a smoking gun verbatim denial of a clearly defined dogma.

    It's officially over for the Jorge apologists.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #3 on: May 11, 2023, 09:49:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 09:29:41 AM
    He's said this before.  It's one of his most blatant heresies, and he's clearly pertinacious.  Council of Florence dogmatically defined that schismatics cannot be saved even if they shed their blood in the name of Christ.

    Council of Florence
    This is blatant manifest heresy, and there's no gymnastics R&R can do to excuse him of it.

    Whether you want to say he's impounded (as Father Chazal does) or a non-pope simpliciter or in material possession of the Holy See, Jorge Bergoglio is not a Catholic.  He's always denied EENS dogma, but this is a smoking gun verbatim denial of a clearly defined dogma.

    It's officially over for the Jorge apologists.

    Jorge Bergoglio is non-pope simpliciter.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #4 on: May 11, 2023, 10:02:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 09:29:41 AM
    He's said this before.  It's one of his most blatant heresies, and he's clearly pertinacious.  Council of Florence dogmatically defined that schismatics cannot be saved even if they shed their blood in the name of Christ.

    Council of Florence
    This is blatant manifest heresy, and there's no gymnastics R&R can do to excuse him of it.

    Whether you want to say he's impounded (as Father Chazal does) or a non-pope simpliciter or in material possession of the Holy See, Jorge Bergoglio is not a Catholic.  He's always denied EENS dogma, but this is a smoking gun verbatim denial of a clearly defined dogma.

    It's officially over for the Jorge apologists.

    A post like this shows you have no comprehension of the terms you nevertheless routinely use, like pertinacious, manifest, etc.

    Its the obsessive SVDS coming through.

    rr, R&R, spit-snarl gnash, wail, R&R, blah, blah, blah…

    Someone could start a thread about paint thinner, street signs, or bubble gum, and Lad’s response would be, “You see, this is proof of R&R’s manifest pertinacity, spit-snarl, blah, blah…
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #5 on: May 11, 2023, 10:16:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 11, 2023, 10:02:00 AM
    A post like this shows you have no comprehension of the terms you nevertheless routinely use, like pertinacious, manifest, etc.

    Its the obsessive SVDS coming through.

    rr, R&R, spit-snarl gnash, wail, R&R, blah, blah, blah…

    Someone could start a thread about paint thinner, street signs, or bubble gum, and Lad’s response would be, “You see, this is proof of R&R’s manifest pertinacity, spit-snarl, blah, blah…

    Ridiculous.  Pertinacious refers to the fact that he's repeatedly made these statements, and even at one point chuckled about it being "maybe heretical".  This isn't a fleeting thought but something that he's consistently promoted.  Manifest just means that it's obvious and public.  This is clearly manifest.

    You're getting pathetic here where this guy repeatedly, consistently, and publicly denies VERBATIM a defined dogma of the Church by claiming there can be schismatic martyrs and still claim he's not a heretic.  There's no such thing as a heretic for you clowns.  Basically, you have this idiotic idea that no one can be known to be a heretic because we can't see into the internal forum to determine whether he's a heretic in the internal forum.  Absurd.  In that case you can never know if anyone is a true "heretic".  This garbage is in fact at the very root of Vatican II ecclesiology, by the way.

    His heresy is manifest and it's pertinacious.  That makes him a non-Catholic as far as anyone is capable of knowing.  His statements here about non-Catholic martyrs is no different than if Bergoglio were to claim that there are Four Divine Persons in the Holy Quadrinity.  Of course, even if he went there, you'd find some way to try to salvage him as a "Catholic".  If he's a Catholic, then Vatican II was correct in redefining the Church to include schismatics, Prots, etc. on the basis that they're only in material error.

    Father Chazal repeatedly conceded that Bergoglio is a manifest heretic.  He just believes that this puts him into a state of suspension while he materially retains the Chair.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #6 on: May 11, 2023, 10:23:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 10:16:28 AM
    Ridiculous.  Pertinacious refers to the fact that he's repeatedly made these statements, and even at one point chuckled about it being "maybe heretical".  This isn't a fleeting thought but something that he's consistently promoted.  Manifest just means that it's obvious and public.  This is clearly manifest.

    You're getting pathetic here where this guy repeatedly, consistently, and publicly denies VERBATIM a defined dogma of the Church by claiming there can be schismatic martyrs and still claim he's not a heretic.  There's no such thing as a heretic for you clowns.  Basically, you have this idiotic idea that no one can be known to be a heretic because we can't see into the internal forum to determine whether he's a heretic in the internal forum.  Absurd.  In that case you can never know if anyone is a true "heretic".  This garbage is in fact at the very root of Vatican II ecclesiology, by the way.

    His heresy is manifest and it's pertinacious.  That makes him a non-Catholic as far as anyone is capable of knowing.  His statements here about non-Catholic martyrs is no different than if Bergoglio were to claim that there are Four Divine Persons in the Holy Quadrinity.

    Unfortunately, most of the so-called Resistance hold Opinion No. 4 of the 5 opinions expressed by St. Robert Bellarmine, that is, that a pope is a public manifest formal heretic only when the Church officially judges him so.  Opinion No. 4 is heretical on two fronts: 1) that the cardinals and/or bishops can canonically judge a true pope; 2) that the public sin of manifest formal heresy does not per se separate the heretic from the Church.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #7 on: May 11, 2023, 10:27:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on May 11, 2023, 10:23:33 AM
    Unfortunately, most of the so-called Resistance hold Opinion No. 4 of the 5 opinions expressed by St. Robert Bellarmine, that is, that a pope is a public manifest formal heretic only when the Church officially judges him so.  Opinion No. 4 is heretical on two fronts: 1) that the cardinals and/or bishops can canonically judge a true pope; 2) that the public sin of manifest formal heresy does not per se separate the heretic from the Church.

    Agreed.  If he's still pope when the Church "judges" him, then that's a serious problem.  It's effectively the Church's judgment that strips him of papal authority.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #8 on: May 11, 2023, 10:31:58 AM »
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    • Really, the massive irony here is that Bergoglio's argument to include these schismatics in the martyrology as saints is to assert that even though they were schismatics in the external forum, they were Catholics in the internal forum.  But the Church does not judge the internal forum.  And that is PRECISELY the same "reasoning" that R&R use to salvage Jorge Bergoglio, that even though he's obviously a heretic in the external forum, we presume that he's a Catholic in the "internal".  This is the root of the V2 ecclesiology, and it's the same reasoning employed by R&R, who pretend to reject V2 ecclesiology.  It's the very same reasoning to assert that Jorge remains a Catholic despite outward heresy that V2 employs in order to assert that schismatics and Prots are also within the "Church of Christ" despite their external forum separation from it.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #9 on: May 11, 2023, 10:39:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 10:16:28 AM
     Basically, you have this idiotic idea that no one can be known to be a heretic because we can't see into the internal forum to determine whether he's a heretic in the internal forum. 


    And yet, isn't this the position of the Society in regards to the validity of the NO Holy Orders? In other words, they judge the internal forum themselves on a case by case basis, no?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #10 on: May 11, 2023, 10:42:20 AM »
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    • It’s unfortunate Lad and CK are both OCD time wasters.

    All this stuff was thoroughly discussed in the recent Fr. Chazal thread, from which they were able to learn nothing, and now their SVDC would have the entire forum chew their cabbage again.

    Proof that you can only raise a man to the limits of his capacity, but no further.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #11 on: May 11, 2023, 11:09:06 AM »
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    • Don't forget his personal heresy (nor that of any of the V2 papal claimants) isn't the real issue.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #12 on: May 11, 2023, 11:34:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 11, 2023, 09:29:41 AM
    He's said this before.  It's one of his most blatant heresies, and he's clearly pertinacious.  Council of Florence dogmatically defined that schismatics cannot be saved even if they shed their blood in the name of Christ.

    Council of Florence
    This is blatant manifest heresy, and there's no gymnastics R&R can do to excuse him of it.

    Whether you want to say he's impounded (as Father Chazal does) or a non-pope simpliciter or in material possession of the Holy See, Jorge Bergoglio is not a Catholic.  He's always denied EENS dogma, but this is a smoking gun verbatim denial of a clearly defined dogma.

    It's officially over for the Jorge apologists.

    Lad,

    There is a lack of clarity here that just contributes to the confusion. 

    Father Chazal holds that Francis is the pope. You say he can't be the pope, that if he is the pope, or regarded as the pope, it makes a lie of the Church's indefectibility; it stands on end the traditional teaching regarding the pope's authority and submission to it, etc.

    How does Fr. Chazal's "impounding" of the pope, while still recognizing him as pope, not create issues regarding the Church's indefectiblity, the pope's authority and submission to it, etc.

    Please educate me.

    Thank you,

    DR
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #13 on: May 11, 2023, 11:41:16 AM »
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    • Is Fr Chazal's theory the same thing as the Thesis of Bishop

    Guérard des Lauriers?

    https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Explanation-of-the-Thesis.pdf
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Includes Schismatic Heretics in Martyrology
    « Reply #14 on: May 11, 2023, 01:05:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on May 11, 2023, 11:41:16 AM
    Is Fr Chazal's theory the same thing as the Thesis of Bishop

    Guérard des Lauriers?

    https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Explanation-of-the-Thesis.pdf

    Father Chazal would say no, but most individuals who have looked at it objectively would say that they're the same position for all intents and purposes with only semantical nuances to avoid the "stigma" of being called a sedevacantist.
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