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Author Topic: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?  (Read 13044 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2023, 08:03:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: thomazbarbosa on April 27, 2023, 07:52:50 AM
    As usual, the holy oil is consecrated by the Bishop, in the case of Fr Raphael. (Bis)

    Which bishop would that be?
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    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #166 on: April 27, 2023, 08:11:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on April 26, 2023, 07:16:54 PM
    I presume nothing.
    You are advocating that the doubtful extraordinary minister of Confirmation, Fr Arrizaga, confirm your children when the certainly valid ordinary minister of Confirmation is in your backyard. How else could you say "I see that the sacrament is sentenced to death by internet scholars"?
    Either you are in opposition with your bishop, or you have no regard for the law of God and the Church.
    Where is the necessary jurisdiction for this Bishop you name to confirm? If you make so much noise and fuss, claiming jurisdiction, where is the Bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, sitting on his chair, from where he administers his diocese, entrusted by the Holy See, which had its episcopal consecration approved by the Pope. Would that be the case with the Bishop who referred me? Where is this ONE WHO HAS ORDINARY JURISDICTION? Point me please!
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    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #167 on: April 27, 2023, 08:17:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 27, 2023, 08:03:56 AM
    Which bishop would that bi
    Bispos da "resistência"
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #168 on: April 27, 2023, 08:20:08 AM »
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    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #169 on: April 27, 2023, 08:22:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 27, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
    Qual deles?
    Nas palavras de Padre Rafael: "Padre Hewko me los dió. Y Padre Hewko los recibió de Mons Zendejas. Eso fue creo hace pueco tiempo"
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    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #170 on: April 27, 2023, 08:23:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on April 26, 2023, 07:16:54 PM
    I presume nothing.
    You are advocating that the doubtful extraordinary minister of Confirmation, Fr Arrizaga, confirm your children when the certainly valid ordinary minister of Confirmation is in your backyard. How else could you say "I see that the sacrament is sentenced to death by internet scholars"?
    Either you are in opposition with your bishop, or you have no regard for the law of God and the Church.
    as you can see, there are statements in both directions, but I do not have your pride in using those that favor me as dogmas of the Faith, infallibly fulminated ex cathedra in an unfailing way as you intend to make everyone believe. DON THOMAS IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN MY BISHOP, STOP YOUR FILTHY ASSERMENTS!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #171 on: April 27, 2023, 08:31:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: thomazbarbosa on April 27, 2023, 08:22:09 AM
    Nas palavras de Padre Rafael: "Padre Hewko me los dió. Y Padre Hewko los recibió de Mons Zendejas. Eso fue creo hace pueco tiempo"
    Then this is an additional cause for concern, since these holy oils would be years old, whereas canon law forbids old oils to be used, and requires new oils every year.

    If the oils have gone rancid, it’s a problem.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #172 on: April 27, 2023, 08:33:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: thomazbarbosa on April 27, 2023, 07:42:00 AM

    Thank you Thomaz. Computer Translation:

    The theological explanation of the administration of Confirmation by priests, can be made by starting either from the power of the Order or from the power of Jurisdiction. Of course, to administer a sacrament requires the power of Order. This power is not conferred with an act of jurisdiction therefore the priest possesses it having already the Order.

    As this theologian says, "of course". What follows after this, that is crucial. The explanation has only just started!

    The whole thrust of this thread is that theologians and jurists say that something more than this is needed, which seems to be the activation of the latent power of Order that the priest has by the episcopal/papal approval, without which he has no active power. Canon Law of 1917 is clear enough that this is required for the validity of priestly confirmations.



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    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #173 on: April 27, 2023, 08:34:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: thomazbarbosa on April 27, 2023, 07:42:00 AM

    we have other sources, which will be displayed here as soon as I can travel to get my books
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #174 on: April 27, 2023, 08:35:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: thomazbarbosa on April 27, 2023, 08:11:49 AM
    Where is the necessary jurisdiction for this Bishop you name to confirm? If you make so much noise and fuss, claiming jurisdiction, where is the Bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, sitting on his chair, from where he administers his diocese, entrusted by the Holy See, which had its episcopal consecration approved by the Pope. Would that be the case with the Bishop who referred me? Where is this ONE WHO HAS ORDINARY JURISDICTION? Point me please!
    The bishop automatically has the power to validly confirm. He doesn't need to have it activated according to any law or theological opinion. We are not making an argument here about ordinary jurisdiction, but power of order to validly confirm.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #175 on: April 27, 2023, 08:49:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: thomazbarbosa on April 27, 2023, 08:23:35 AM
    as you can see, there are statements in both directions, but I do not have your pride in using those that favor me as dogmas of the Faith, infallibly fulminated ex cathedra in an unfailing way as you intend to make everyone believe. DON THOMAS IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN MY BISHOP, STOP YOUR FILTHY ASSERMENTS!
    I am not saying Dom Tomas has ordinary jurisdiction, but that as a bishop he is the ordinary minister of Confirmation.
    I agree, there may well be opinions on both sides of the debate. That means there is doubt regarding the validity of priestly ordinations without the indult. Doubt can obviously not be tolerated in the sacraments. So, no, I am not making any ex cathedra statements, just imploring Fr Arrizaga to reunite with Bishop Tomas and make use of his services so that there is no doubt at all about the Confirmations.
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    Offline Benzel

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #176 on: April 27, 2023, 09:19:39 AM »
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    • English translation of PV:

    The theological explanation of the administration of Confirmation by priests, can be made by starting either from the power of the Order or from the power of Jurisdiction. Of course, to administer a sacrament requires the power of Order. This power is not conferred with an act of jurisdiction therefore the priest possesses it having already the Order.

    I found the context in French:

    L’explication théologique de la Confirmation administrée par les prêtres peut partir du pouvoir d’Ordre ou du pouvoir de juridiction. Il est clair que pour administrer un sacrement il faut le pouvoir d’Ordre. Comme ce pouvoir ne peut être conféré par un acte de juridiction, le prêtre le possède déjà dans son Ordre. Mais son exercice est encore lié. Son pouvoir d’Ordre est délié par la délégation pontificale.

    In English: 

    The theological explanation of the administration of Confirmation by priests, can be made by starting either from the power of the Order or from the power of Jurisdiction. Of course, to administer a sacrament requires the power of Order. This power is not conferred with an act of jurisdiction therefore the priest possesses it having already the Order. As this power cannot be conferred by an act of jurisdiction, the priest already has it in his Order. But its exercise is still linked. Her power of the Order is released by the pontifical delegation.

    Source. http://jesusmarie.free.fr/bernard_bartmann_theologie_dogmatique_livre_6.pdf
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #177 on: April 27, 2023, 09:53:07 AM »
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    • So this Portuguese text says, in essence, the same as all the English texts. Priests cannot make use of the power to confirm unless the pope activates it. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #178 on: April 27, 2023, 11:07:06 AM »
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    • This whole thread has been rendered moot, by the revelation that Fr. Arrizaga received his holy oils from Fr. Hewko (who himself has not received any from +Zendejas for years, if ever).

    The integrity of the oils would be suspect after so long a time, thereby making the matter suspect, and the sacrament doubtful from this cause alone, even if all Fr. Arrizaga’s arguments were conceded (which they aren’t).
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #179 on: April 27, 2023, 11:18:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 27, 2023, 11:07:06 AM
    ... Fr. Hewko (who himself has not received any from +Zendejas for years, if ever).

    ...
    I recall the bishop telling us that Fr. Hewko did attend a priest meeting at the bishop's residence/Retreat house and did obtain the oils. But that was a onetime event for Fr. Hewko as he resumed criticizing the Bishops of the Resistance all priests friendly to them. 
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