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Author Topic: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?  (Read 25275 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
« Reply #120 on: April 25, 2023, 08:27:59 PM »
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  • Sean, I would like to know your opinion. How likely is it that some SSPX priests will join the Resistance or become independent after the consecration of the Bergoglio bishops?

    I think it will depend on how the consecrations proceed:

    1) If no SSPX bishops are among the consecrators, the scales will fall from the eyes of a handful, but no more (their spirits have all already been broken);

    2) If only SSPX bishops are the consecrators, not a single priest will leave, regardless of those who are chosen.  All have long since made their peace with conciliar reintegration (and thinking about +Fellay’s “Letter #63 to Friends and Benefactors” receives the same response as fighting off intrusive or impure thoughts.  They’re all trying to fight off memories of their compromises, which explains their resentment of the Resistance (who’s mere existence is a painful reminder).

    3) If Huonder is among the co-consecrators, there could also be light turbulence (but the ranks have been substantially purified of old-school Lefebvrists, otherwise Rome wouldn’t be permitting consecration).  So don’t expect much.

    4) If instead of consecrations ad intra, instead we have bishops imported into the SSPX (eg., Huonder and Suarez). that also could cause a handful of defections (but only a handful: The trial balloon of Huonder consecrating holy oils ruffled few feathers ad intra, and that’s what Rome wanted to see).

    But the question on my mind is, “What are the implications for consecrating bishops for a group alleged not in communion with the Holy See?”  When has that ever happened? 

    Will any of the SSPX priests ask themselves whether Fr. Pfluger’s prediction that “one day you will wake up and you will be in Rome?”  Will they care whether an accord has been reached “in pectore,” and is only gradually being revealed?

    Will they remember how, in the 4th century, “the world awoke, and groaned to find itself Arian” (or in this case, conciliar)?

    Quite frankly, I think there’s only the spectacle of a public ѕυιcιdє, but none are rushing to keep the man from jumping.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #121 on: April 25, 2023, 08:41:33 PM »
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  • I appreciate your candid feedback. It's hard to accept, but I understand. I can't understand how you can consecrate bishops without being in communion with Rome which tolerates the inconsistency. It's a series of paradoxes.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #122 on: April 25, 2023, 08:53:31 PM »
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  • I appreciate your candid feedback. It's hard to accept, but I understand. I can't understand how you can consecrate bishops without being in communion with Rome which tolerates the inconsistency. It's a series of paradoxes.

    Perhaps there’s no inconsistency at all:

    Perhaps the SSPX has long since been quietly recognized, and has only recently graduated from its probationary “recognition of tolerance ad tempus?”

    Perhaps this is it’s coming out party, where it no longer cares whether the “faithful” can connect the dots?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #123 on: April 26, 2023, 05:48:09 AM »
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  • Good evening everyone, Save Regina. I am writing from Brazil, so please forgive any possible errors as the text was translated with the aid of a translator. Following the controversy surrounding the confirmations performed by Father Rafael, and being from Campos dos Goytacazes-RJ, it is certain that such controversial issues have been peculiar to us since the 1960s. Therefore, I believe I can contribute, although it is also certain that I will not convince many, nor is that my intention. Father Rafael has never invoked the authority of a bishop for himself, but rather makes use, for the good and salvation of souls, of the power of ordination that was conferred upon him, given the serious need and absence of trustworthy bishops, or even bishops who are not concerned with constructing their own doctrine. As for the question of delegation, I offer the following reflection: should we have requested it from John Paul II during the Assisi gathering, at the feet of the image of Buddha? Or, should we ask for delegation from Francis, invoking the intercession of Pachamama? Well then. I reside in the city of Campos dos Goytacazes, which was once a center of resistance to the prevailing modernism, led by our late Bishop, Dom Antônio de Castro Mayer. It must be known to almost everyone the disastrous agreement that took place between Campos and Rome, and its disastrous consequences. In 2005, troubled by everything, we requested the assistance of the FSSPX. (where he made harsh criticisms of this agreement), where a mission was established, later elevated to a Priorate. However, the same superior of this institution, who once made such severe criticisms of this malignant agreement, now presents himself as if enchanted by a "practical agreement", where he shows himself to be a man of two weights and two measures, and worse, without receiving anything in return, not that receiving an honor could justify the denial of Faith. Should we, therefore, in such serious matters of Faith, submit ourselves to the whims of these priests with "practical interests", in agreements where the revealed Faith is negotiated? We have, thus, a small sample of the chaotic background in which Father Rafael was forced to administer the sacraments. Not all pre-conciliar canonist books are at hand, such as Capello, who defended the adage: "necessitas non obligator Lex", that is, we are in a serious state of necessity, a necessity not subject to the scruples of canonical laws, coined for situations of normality, given that no one is obliged to the impossible. In this context, the canonists refer to the right of necessity, generated as a result of the state of necessity. "Ecclesia Suplet". As Martyr Bishop Fischer declared, before having his head cut off by Henry VIII. I also have in my possession a collection that once belonged to Dom Antonio de Castro Mayer, authored by Bernardo Bartmann, which helped clarify very obscure points, such as the case of the Econe consecrations, before which, Dom Antonio, in a conference with Dom Lefebvre, his priests and seminarians, asked the iconic question: "Where is the visible head of the Church?" Now, if we do not have this figure currently, to whom should we turn for the good of our souls? How could we reconcile this requirement with the good of souls? Would it, therefore, be God's desire that this sacrament ceases from the face of the earth because of disciplinary norms? Or, still, establish the need for us to submit, in sound conscience, to frivolous bishops, as Saint Nilus of Cairo foresaw, who change position like the waters of the sea that come and go, negotiating matters of Faith? These bishops who have no ordinary jurisdiction, then what could they delegate? It is difficult to imagine and believe that such an august sacrament could have been drawn up to be extinguished, this is not possible. Here we have a case: myself, who was confirmed by Dom Galarreta, had the sacrament denied to a member of my family because we are not aligned with the "political issues" imposed by the FSSPX, which we will not collaborate with. I have another case, also in my family, where the person in question suffered from serious illnesses, about which no doctor or remedy brought any relief for many years. When he received the sacrament of confirmation by Father Rafael, he began to enjoy a state of health that he had never before experienced since his birth. Can a bad tree bear good fruit, as explained in Matthew 7:17-20? It is certain, as extracted from the book mentioned above, that from the earliest times, Confirmation was also administered by priests, and that according to the Doctors, it became reserved to the person of the Bishop, for reasons of honor, and also for pastoral purposes, obviously for times when there is no grave necessity, so that the bishop can know all the sheep in his flock (Diocese), a circuмstance that currently does not exist. The power of the Priest ("potestas") comes not from his jurisdiction, but from his Power of Order. Returning to Dom Antonio de Castro Mayer, it was precisely Dom Antonio's understanding of the existence of the extraordinary legal order (of necessity) that prompted him, along with Dom Lefebvre, to consecrate the Bishops in Econe, and let it be clear, lawfully and validly. More than the other sacraments, which no one denies the validity and lawfulness, such as confession and marriage, would not the episcopal consecration, in times of normalcy, have much greater regulations to follow in the issues debated here? So how can they invoke and believe in shallow arguments used for common times, as are used for all of the above (again, confession, marriage, and even episcopal consecration), in order to try to exclude from the face of the earth the sacrament of Confirmation? It is really not understandable, fair, or just. I see that the sacrament is sentenced to death by internet scholars.

    Sincerely,

    Thomaz Barbosa

    Campos dos Goytacazes - RJ
    Brazil

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #124 on: April 26, 2023, 06:30:51 AM »
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  • Father Rafael has never invoked the authority of a bishop for himself, but rather makes use, for the good and salvation of souls, of the power of ordination that was conferred upon him, given the serious need and absence of trustworthy bishops, or even bishops who are not concerned with constructing their own doctrine... I see that the sacrament is sentenced to death by internet scholars.
    Dear Thomaz:
    1. You have an extremely trustworthy bishop at your very doorstep: Bishop Tomas D'Aquino at Mosteiro da Santa Cruz, Nova Friburgo. 
    2. Fr Rafael and his followers, it would appear, are the ones who are sentencing to death Confirmation for their children by their frivolous rejection of such a trustworthy bishop and faithful son of Bishop de Castro Mayer. Do what you must to make peace with this good bishop, and your problem will be solved.
    3. It is no doubt difficult for you with the translator, but very serious arguments have been presented above from theologians and canonists that make it doubtful, at best, that the law of necessity can in any way activate the latent power that the priest has, which apparently requires at least episcopal, if not papal, approval. It has been explained that this activated power is required not only for liceity, but also for validity. It is a very different argument from the one justifying episcopal consecrations to continue the priesthood. The priest not only requires jurisdiction, but something added to his power of orders to be able to confirm validly.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #125 on: April 26, 2023, 06:34:40 AM »
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  • Not all pre-conciliar canonist books are at hand, such as Capello, who defended the adage: "necessitas non obligator Lex", that is, we are in a serious state of necessity, a necessity not subject to the scruples of canonical laws, coined for situations of normality, given that no one is obliged to the impossible. In this context, the canonists refer to the right of necessity, generated as a result of the state of necessity. "Ecclesia Suplet".

    Sincerely,

    Thomaz Barbosa

    Campos dos Goytacazes - RJ
    Brazil

    Yes, I agree completely.  Canon Law is intended to maintain the right order of the Church under NORMAL conditions.  If a priest has the inherent power of Orders to do something, and is lacking only either jurisdiction or "delegation" (much ado has needlessly been made about this distinction but it's effectively the same thing, a permission normally required to validly exercise one of these inherent powers), if there's an abnormal situation any kind where the good of souls is at stake, then the Church most certainly supplies.  Jurisdiction / permission all ultimately comes from Our Lord.

    If these confirmations are not valid, then neither are absolutions given by Traditional priests (outside of the relatively-recent SSPX "jurisdiction") and Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Castro Mayer, and the four consecrands were legitimately excommunicated.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #126 on: April 26, 2023, 06:36:50 AM »
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  • It is no doubt difficult for you with the translator, but very serious arguments have been presented above from theologians and canonists that make it doubtful, at best ...

    Utter Nonsense.  There's no Divine Law in place that requires such delegation, as the practice of the Church had been different prior to the papal determination to require delegation for Latin Rite priests, and Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church (the Pope, when there is one, His Vicar) and the Ultimate Delegator.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #127 on: April 26, 2023, 06:42:51 AM »
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  • Yes, I agree completely.  Canon Law is intended to maintain the right order of the Church under NORMAL conditions.  If a priest has the inherent power of Orders to do something, and is lacking only either jurisdiction or "delegation" (much ado has needlessly been made about this distinction but it's effectively the same thing, a permission normally required to validly exercise one of these inherent powers), if there's an abnormal situation any kind where the good of souls is at stake, then the Church most certainly supplies.  Jurisdiction / permission all ultimately comes from Our Lord.

    If these confirmations are not valid, then neither are absolutions given by Traditional priests (outside of the relatively-recent SSPX "jurisdiction") and Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Castro Mayer, and the four consecrands were legitimately excommunicated.

    On the one hand, you’re contradicting your earlier (erroneous) statement that, so long as there’s one orthodox bishop in the area (eg., +Thomas Aquinas), nobody can avail themselves of a priest using supplied jurisdiction.


    On the other hand, you’ve just ignored 5 pages of arguments distinguishing between papal delegation (which pertains to unlocking a power of order), and jurisdiction (which does not), thereby regressing the entire thread back to its starting point.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #128 on: April 26, 2023, 06:49:36 AM »
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  • On the one hand, you’re contradicting your earlier (erroneous) statement that, so long as there’s one orthodox bishop in the area (eg., +Thomas Aquinas), nobody can avail themselves of a priest using supplied jurisdiction.

    I never said that but was pointing out your own contradiction.  If you hold to this, then if you have access to an SSPX priest you wouldn't be able to receive valid absolution from a Traditional priest without jurisdiction.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #129 on: April 26, 2023, 06:51:43 AM »
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  • On the other hand, you’ve just ignored 5 pages of arguments distinguishing between papal delegation (which pertains to unlocking a power of order), and jurisdiction (which does not), thereby regressing the entire thread back to its starting point.

    Correct.  I'm absolutely ignoring it because it's utter nonsense.  Statements from Canonists to that effect are all rooted in the normal law of the Church, which applies during normal conditions.  During normal conditions, one cannot receive valid absolution from a priest without the necessary jurisdiction and faculties.  During normal conditions, the Trad bishops who perform or receive consecrations without Papal Mandate are all excommunicated.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #130 on: April 26, 2023, 07:13:11 AM »
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  • I never said that but was pointing out your own contradiction.  If you hold to this, then if you have access to an SSPX priest you wouldn't be able to receive valid absolution from a Traditional priest without jurisdiction.

    Interesting argument:

    “I never said that, but I did say that?”

    :jester:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #131 on: April 26, 2023, 07:14:34 AM »
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  • Correct.  I'm absolutely ignoring it because it's utter nonsense.  Statements from Canonists to that effect are all rooted in the normal law of the Church, which applies during normal conditions.  During normal conditions, one cannot receive valid absolution from a priest without the necessary jurisdiction and faculties.  During normal conditions, the Trad bishops who perform or receive consecrations without Papal Mandate are all excommunicated.

    A statement perfectly contradicted by the canonists you are ignoring.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #132 on: April 26, 2023, 07:47:20 AM »
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  • Hold everything:

    I just looked up the term “delegation”in the Catholic Encyclopedia, and it DOES in fact equate delegation with jurisdiction (the central premise upon which Ladislaus’s position is predicated):

    “In canon law, delegation is the spiritual jurisdiction or power which a person exercises in virtue of a commission from one having ordinary jurisdiction(see JURISDICTION), with the understanding that such delegate must act in the name of the one delegating.”

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04696b.htm#:~:text=In%20canon%20law%2C%20delegation%20is,name%20of%20the%20one%20delegating.

    Although it does not discuss delegation specific to confirmation, it does discuss delegation generally with regard to sacramental validity (see especially section III of the article).

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #133 on: April 26, 2023, 08:00:24 AM »
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  • +ABL disobeyed the pope and consecrated bishops for 2 main reasons - a) the continuation of the Church, and b) to save souls.  The penalty for such disobedience, in normal circuмstances, is excommunication and the grave sin of schism.  What canon law did he appeal to?  Nothing in particular (that I am aware of); he simply appealed to the 'emergency canons' and to the 'highest law' of saving souls.

    What canon law does +Sanborn appeal to when setting up seminaries and ordaining priests and consecrating bishops?  What canon law does the SSPV appeal to when rejecting the 1955 Holy Week, issued by a valid pope?  And yet most Trads accept these actions as necessary and using common sense (based on the crisis).

    What is the penalty for confirming without papal permission?  I doubt excommunication, for such an act hardly seems as serious as consecrating bishops independently.  But even if the penalty were excommunication, is not the purpose the same as +ABL's or +McKenna's or +Thuc's or +Sanborns?  It's not like Trad land is filled with Bishops and confirmations are easy to get.  They are NOT.  The purpose of Fr Arrizaga's actions, as I see them, are the same as +ABL's - a) continuation of the Church, through the laity's holiness and b) to save souls.

    I have no idea who Fr Arrizaga is, i've never heard of him until this thread but his actions seem rational, since we are truly living in emergency times (and it's not getting better).  I can't understand why many of you are arguing for the "letter of the law" in this situation?  It's the "spirit of the law" which matters here.  Church law was made to help sanctity, not hinder it.  The emergency canons exist for a reason.
    Dear Ladislau It is well seen in his comments that the friend desires the things of heaven. Making an interesting junction of the Laws of the Church with the Divine Laws. Bishop Fischer declared before the Papal court installed in England, that not even the Supreme Authority can legislate on the Supplement, which finds echo in his voice today. We need more Christians like you, interested more in the Glory of God than in the political interests of men (like the Pharisees). I pray Regina Cæli will reward you for the good you do. In union of prayers In Corde Iesu

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #134 on: April 26, 2023, 08:32:09 AM »
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  • Quote
    I appreciate your candid feedback. It's hard to accept, but I understand. I can't understand how you can consecrate bishops without being in communion with Rome which tolerates the inconsistency. It's a series of paradoxes.
    Let's not forget that the Modernists in new-rome, who worship satan, are agents of chaos.  First and foremost, that is what they want to sow in the Church - division, confusion, contradiction - which is what the V2 docuмents are full of.  So new-rome's approach and handling of the new-sspx fits this mold very well.