Author Topic: Fr. Hesse : Is the Church Indefectible in her Current Sufferings? (Read 2631 times)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2020, 09:30:07 AM »

If she isn't indefectible, it isn't the Church; this is arguably THE question of this time.

The crisis isn't about "Is so-and-so the Pope?" Understandably, many people get wrapped around the axle about this important point. However, the problem is much, MUCH bigger. In question form:

"Is that institution in Rome, led by the V2 and post-V2 men in white robes tailored by Gammarelli, still the Immaculate Spouse of Jesus Christ, infallible and completely trustworthy guide for the salvation of souls? Are we not all resisting in one way or another, to one degree or another, precisely because the doctrine, discipline and worship practiced in Rome and spread throughout the entire world by means of Rome's example and authority is clearly NOT Roman Catholicism? What happened, where can she be found, where do we go from here and how does this truly incomprehensible situation harmonize with the Divine promises and, eventually, reach a happy resolution?"

The religion emanating from Rome is leading souls to hell. How did it come to this? What to do now?

Meg · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2020, 03:33:15 PM »

A good recording of Fr. Hesse.

From the 7:00 minute mark, he describes the problem of being able to relate the sufferings of Christ to the sufferings of the Church today. He mentions Archbishop Lefebvre. I know that few on this forum care about +ABL, but here's what Fr. Hesse has to say on the subject:

"In order to understand the sufferings of Christ, you have to meditate of the sorrowful mysteries. And then you have to understand an analogy, an insight, and if I may allow myself a personal remark that only a saint can have. The insight that I'm going to reveal to you that only a saint can have, and Archbishop Lefebvre had it. On the 29th of June 1982, at the ordinations in Econe, he gave a sermon. He said the following:

"Don't get lost because of the sufferings of the Church today."

You see, the major heresies came up because people did not understand the sufferings of Christ. The Manicheans, as I quoted before, the Manicheans and Pope Liberius; somehow they could not understand the sufferings of Christ, and they said..."A man who suffered like this cannot be God." And they went into heresy. Many of them went to Hell. Two centuries later, under Pope Honorius, they again said..."These sufferings of Christ on the Cross are absolutely incomprehensible. It is impossible that God goes through this; therefore, the sacrifice of the Cross was only symbolic." Christ is God [to them] but he's not full human being. He only assumed a human appearance, because it is impossible that God may suffer like this. They went into heresy. Many of them went into Hell.

And this is what is happening today. The people cannot understand the suffering of the Church. And they confuse the two aspects of the Papacy - the divine aspect of infallibility, and the human aspect of sin, error, blasphemy and crime. Again there is two groups who cannot digest what is going on. There is the people who say..."It is impossible that somebody who commits crimes like this....it is impossible that somebody who utters heresies like this can possibly be Pope." It's like saying that one who suffers that much cannot be God. Arianism.
And then you have the others who say..."It is impossible that the Pope makes mistakes like this. The Pope is the Pope is the Pope is the Pope; whatever he says cannot be wrong." They think he is only God, and they forget the human side, just like the monothelits, under Pope Honorius. When in reality, we have to understand that the Pope is a human being."

Stubborn · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2020, 04:03:31 PM »

I really like Fr. Hesse, below is a snip from one of Fr. Wathen's sermons that touches on the subject......

"...We have reason to celebrate at all times because as you know, even though we commemorate the sorrowful event of Our Lord’s Passion and death, and even though we live in a very sad situation, we realize that our sorrow is not that of complete tragedy. We might even use the expression, “The Divine Comedy”, of which we are players, because everything that happens is under the Divine Control.

And even though there is much sin and there is real tragedy, the only real tragedy and the only irreparable tragedy of course being the loss of a soul. And this actually happens. But as far as creation is concerned and our part in it, we do not really recognize any tragedy because we anticipate salvation. We have no reason to disbelieve that Almighty God does not intend to save us. Not that we are not able to lose our own souls, but we recognize that we are serious about being saved. We intend to be and we have reason to rejoice that Almighty God has shown us such mercy.

Among all the mysteries that we live amongst, is that of the fact that God saves those whom He wills. And yet those who are lost are lost because they will. No one is saved against his will and no one is damned against his will. At the same time almighty God has known from all eternity who would be His whom he would succeed in saving. And all the jubilation that the Church expresses in its many Masses and in its office is over the fact that those whom God regards as His elect will be saved.

Furthermore, no matter how much tragedy with which history is strewn, Christ moves towards His glorious triumph. With His resurrection was the announcement that He would have his victory, when he emerged from the tomb, He proved that there was no force, no power greater than He. And he proved that if He was invincible, then that which He would establish is also invincible, namely His Church.

It really does not matter therefore that throughout history the Church suffer terrific blows, that it at times – and these times almost have always prevailed – that the Church suffer it’s terrible embarrassments, it’s setbacks.

Despite all this, despite all appearances and despite whatever losses, Christ is triumphing in the Church and He is proving His power, His invincibility and He is succeeding in doing what He came to the world to achieve and God the Father is fulfilling the purposes of His creation.

If it were not so He would never have created anything to begin with. If it could be, that Almighty God could set in motion anything out of which He could not draw whatever He wished, then He would never had done anything like that and He indeed would not be infinite in the first place.

We have it in our power to participate or we have it in our choice to be turned away, it is strictly within our choice and whatever grace is necessary is within our grasp..."

donkath · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2020, 09:58:55 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis on March 25, 2020, 09:30:07 AM

If she isn't indefectible, it isn't the Church; this is arguably THE question of this time.

The crisis isn't about "Is so-and-so the Pope?" Understandably, many people get wrapped around the axle about this important point. However, the problem is much, MUCH bigger. In question form:

"Is that institution in Rome, led by the V2 and post-V2 men in white robes tailored by Gammarelli, still the Immaculate Spouse of Jesus Christ, infallible and completely trustworthy guide for the salvation of souls? Are we not all resisting in one way or another, to one degree or another, precisely because the doctrine, discipline and worship practiced in Rome and spread throughout the entire world by means of Rome's example and authority is clearly NOT Roman Catholicism? What happened, where can she be found, where do we go from here and how does this truly incomprehensible situation harmonize with the Divine promises and, eventually, reach a happy resolution?"

The religion emanating from Rome is leading souls to hell. How did it come to this? What to do now?

The de fide infallible dogmatic doctrines laid out in the pre-vat.II councils are set in concrete. They become indelibly printed in the soul of the faithful Catholic. Vat.II, being merely a pastoral council changes nothing whatsoever. What it has endeavoured to do is substitute a newchurch. I say 'endeavoured' because it has no chance of succeeding. If Catholics let their guard down for a second, permitting the slightest admission to the smoke of Satan, then doubt enters the mind on whether the Church is indeed indefectible.

Vat. II was permitted to happened because it exposes/reveals concretely the Church's enemies. It has vomited out the Pharisees of our time so that they no longer beaver away undergound as they have done since the time Christ first exposed them. Our Lord has done that with Vat.II. with the added result of separating the sheep from the goats amongst us - the faithful (or not). I forget which Church Father said that 'they have the buildings, but we have the faith'.

Nobody can take away our faith. We can only lose it if we give it away. GOD will never take it away! It is through indefectibility of the Church - through faith in her infallible teachings that provide the grace to pray so that one day all men shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest - when true worshippers shall worship in spirit and in truth.

..

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2020, 10:19:55 PM »

Quote from: donkath on March 25, 2020, 09:58:55 PM

Vat.II, being merely a pastoral council changes nothing whatsoever. What it has endeavoured to do is substitute a newchurch. I say 'endeavoured' because it has no chance of succeeding.

Take a look around and at, say, the last FIFTY years. There sure as hell IS a newchurch in Rome and it has changed practically everything in every single parish in the world. If not, why is there ANY resistance whatsoever?

Will the "pastoral nature" of V2 bring back any of the souls dragged to hell by the words, deeds and unspeakably scandalous actions of Paul VI, JP2 et alii? No.

Btw, St. Athanasius said the words you quoted. Godspeed.

donkath · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2020, 10:37:40 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis on March 25, 2020, 10:19:55 PM

Take a look around and at, say, the last FIFTY years. There sure as hell IS a newchurch in Rome and it has changed practically everything in every single parish in the world. If not, why is there ANY resistance whatsoever?

Will the "pastoral nature" of V2 bring back any of the souls dragged to hell by the words, deeds and unspeakably scandalous actions of Paul VI, JP2 et alii? No.

Btw, St. Athanasius said the words you quoted. Godspeed.

The Church has always been under attack. There has been resistance to her enemies from the time of Pentecost, since the beginning of time in fact, when Christ promised a Redeemer. What's fifty years in the scheme of things!

Stubborn · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2020, 05:02:33 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis on March 25, 2020, 10:19:55 PM

Take a look around and at, say, the last FIFTY years. There sure as hell IS a newchurch in Rome and it has changed practically everything in every single parish in the world. If not, why is there ANY resistance whatsoever?

Will the "pastoral nature" of V2 bring back any of the souls dragged to hell by the words, deeds and unspeakably scandalous actions of Paul VI, JP2 et alii? No.

The thing that stands out for me, is that during the beginning of the revolution, nearly all of the people willingly, some begrudgingly, abandoned the true faith for the new faith of their own free will. It is entirely phenomenal when you stop to think about this. I'm an old man now, but as a young child I witnessed it and lived it - and I still find it incredible.

So yes, the aim of the newchurch has always been to send souls to hell by hook and by crook, but the only way for that to succeed, meant then and still means that the souls have got to willingly go along with the false prophets that Our Lord warned us to BEWARE of.

"Now this is the question.

Who is guilty? Is it the false prophet or is it those who listen?"

donkath · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2020, 05:14:21 AM »

Quote

Who is guilty? Is it the false prophet or is it those who listen?"

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #9 on:** March 26, 2020, 07:57:37 AM »

Quote from: donkath on March 25, 2020, 10:37:40 PM

The Church has always been under attack. There has been resistance to her enemies from the time of Pentecost, since the beginning of time in fact, when Christ promised a Redeemer. What's fifty years in the scheme of things!

The "church" is now the attacker, driving those faithful to God into the desert, spreading erroneous doctrine, false worship and harmful disciplines throughout the formerly-Catholic world. If you don't grasp that this particular situation is radically different than any other, I cannot help you. Cheers

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2020, 08:11:00 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 26, 2020, 05:02:33 AM

The thing that stands out for me, is that during the beginning of the revolution, nearly all of the people willingly, some begrudgingly, abandoned the true faith for the new faith of their own free will. It is entirely phenomenal when you stop to think about this. I'm an old man now, but as a young child I witnessed it and lived it - and I still find it incredible.

Indeed. When I first grasped the magnitude, I sat still under the open sky for some time, marveling at the fact that rug had been pulled out from beneath the entire world decades before and hardly anyone even noticed at the time or since. The rot had been eating away for a long, long time. I can only surmise that most embraced the bogus, new cult because it provided the freedom they sought yet still felt familiar because they did not even have to leave "home." The Ancient Enemy conditioned the priests and then the priests led the people into the darkness.

The question of guilt, while perhaps of interest to some, is well beyond our pay grade and the answer will not bring any of us any closer to our temporal or eternal goal. I would ask you: Would you allow that THING in Rome to hold you close, like a loving mother embracing her little child? If not, why not? If this is just another persecution in a long line of many, and there has been no substantial change in what purports to be Holy Mother Church, what makes us all recoil from such an embrace? Why are we here in the desert at all?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** March 26, 2020, 08:34:43 AM »

It's a strangely-worded question. OF COURSE the Catholic Church is indefectible. That's Catholic dogma.

To characterize it as the Church "suffering", as if she were merely being attacked by some outside force, such as when the Roman Emperors persecuted the Church, is somewhat dishonest and involves begging the question.

What we have to ask is ... Is this Conciliar institution actually the Catholic Church? For the Magisterium to be leading souls to hell is something that is not compatible with the Church's indefectibility of mission. It does not suffice for indefectibility that the Church should continue materially, that there be people walking around in Rome wearing white and purple and red calling themselves Catholic. The Church cannot defect in her mission. This is nearly a verbatim paraphrase of the Catholic Encyclopedia article on indefectibility.

R&R claim that the Church would defect if the SV proposition is true ... that there haven't been legitimate popes for 60+ years.

SVs claim that the Church would defect if the R&R proposition is true ... that the Church's Magisterium and Universal Discipline have gone so corrupt as to be leading souls to hell and to REQUIRE Catholics to reject them to please God and save their souls.

So which is it? THAT is the argument. We all know that the Church is "suffering".

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #12 on:** March 26, 2020, 08:54:17 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on March 26, 2020, 08:34:43 AM

It's a strangely-worded question. OF COURSE the Catholic Church is indefectible. That's Catholic dogma.

To characterize it as the Church "suffering", as if she were merely being attacked by some outside force, such as when the Roman Emperors persecuted the Church, is somewhat dishonest and involves begging the question.

What we have to ask is ... Is this Conciliar institution actually the Catholic Church? For the Magisterium to be leading souls to hell is something that is not compatible with the Church's indefectibility of mission. It does not suffice for indefectibility that the Church should continue materially, that there be people walking around in Rome wearing white and purple and red calling themselves Catholic. The Church cannot defect in her mission.

Agreed on all points. Your last paragraph above is fundamentally the same as my initial post in this thread. Frankly, we've all already answered the question about the Conciliar Church; that is why we find ourselves in the desert.

It seems clear at this stage that there is not now, nor will there be any clear, simple way to understand and handle this crisis...until God steps in as only He can. Just as the devastation of Our Savior's death left the Apostles utterly shell-shocked until He came to them as the glorified conqueror of sin and death, so we shall remain until He sees fit to raise His Immaculate Spouse from the dead. As the Apostles did, we must remain close to the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of fair love, fear, knowledge and holy hope.

Stubborn · « **Reply #13 on:** March 26, 2020, 09:33:51 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis on March 26, 2020, 08:11:00 AM

I would ask you: Would you allow that THING in Rome to hold you close, like a loving mother embracing her little child? If not, why not? If this is just another persecution in a long line of many, and there has been no substantial change in what purports to be Holy Mother Church, what makes us all recoil from such an embrace? Why are we here in the desert at all?

No. Having been raised to avoid the evil thing, I have never let the thing get close to me. Why? Because I was born and raised a trad as the evil thing was manifesting itself and growing.

I do not see us as being in the desert at all. I do see why that is proper to say, but the reality of this crisis is, like temptations from the devil, God specifically placed us all in this situation we are in, in order for us to use it for our purification.

donkath · « **Reply #14 on:** March 26, 2020, 09:57:40 AM »

Quote

The "church" is now the attacker, driving those faithful to God into the desert, spreading erroneous doctrine, false worship and harmful disciplines throughout the formerly-Catholic world. If you don't grasp that this particular situation is radically different than any other, I cannot help you. Cheers

The Church is not the attacker. The Sacrilegious conciliar church is not catholic. It is not the Catholic Church. The Church provides all the help I, or any of us need. Cheers
God delights in bringing good out of evil. His victory is going to be stupendous! Watch this space.

Quote

As the Apostles did, we must remain close to the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of fair love, fear, knowledge and holy hope.

Absolutely!

Author Topic: Fr. Hesse : Is the Church Indefectible in her Current Sufferings? (Read 2631 times)

donkath

Fr. Hesse : Is the Church Indefectible in her Current Sufferings?

gladius_veritatis

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Meg

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Stubborn

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donkath

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